37 Replies Latest reply on May 17, 2010 10:36 AM by hpmoon

    Locked - Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system

    Curt Wrigley Level 4

      There have been a lot of demos of MPE on monstor systems.   So I decided to do on on a Mediocre system.  See system specs in the video, with GTX285 card and some sample avchd footage

       

       

       

      This demo was an interesting challenge.  My system is not high end to start with; so running Pr with AVCHD and trying to capture it smoothly is tough.  Camtasia capture tool takes a toll on performance when it is running.  So; I had to run Pr in a small window so it would capture at full 30 fps.  So, the combination or the capture tool running and the youtube compression introduces a few studders that dont happen when not running the screen capture tool.

       

      I dont use AVCHD myself, but with CS5 I find it performs well enough.

        • 1. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Midiocre system
          FelixUnderwood Level 2

          Curt, wow, a demo on a system that's not, shall we say, turbo charged! Your demo is the first "real world" demo I've seen! And with only a 285! The only thing I was hoping to see was some additional layers (like the greenscreen key on top of the mortise that you color "corrected" (really uncorrected!). I'm curious how far you can take your system before you have to start rendering. I'm also curious to learn if even if you have to render, I have to believe it happens a whole lot faster than CS4. I've heard that there isn't much performance gain going beyond a Quadro 3800, yet I also heard that there is a 3-layer limit to the 3800. Not sure if that's true or not. But thanks for the unique demo!!

          • 2. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Midiocre system
            shooternz Level 6

            the 3 layer limit is on the 285.

            • 3. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Midiocre system
              FelixUnderwood Level 2

              Ah, that's right. Well I guess it's safe to assume the Quadro 5800 is probably not worth the premium price, additional heat that it must produce and the additional current draw it must have. I wonder if even the 4800 offers much of a performance boost over the 3800. Again, I'll just be patient and keep an eye on this forum for excellent posts like Curt's demo.

              • 4. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Midiocre system
                ruzun Level 1

                Well that is encouraging.  Based on some other posts I was fearing I was left out with my system.  I have an Intel 965X Core-i7 Extreme 3.2Ghz Quad Core CPU, with 12GB of RAM and a GTX 285 card.  So I think it should be a bit faster than the system you tested on.

                 

                Hopefully using only 1920x1080 vs the 1440x1080 AVCHD clips won't slow things down much, I noticed only one of the clips you downloaded was FullHD.  Did it seem any more sluggish using that clip rather than the 1440 clips?

                • 5. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Midiocre system
                  Curt Wrigley Level 4

                  Actually its my understanding that the higher end cards handle the processing better heat wise.

                  • 6. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Midiocre system
                    Curt Wrigley Level 4

                    ruzun wrote:

                     

                     

                    Hopefully using only 1920x1080 vs the 1440x1080 AVCHD clips won't slow things down much, I noticed only one of the clips you downloaded was FullHD.  Did it seem any more sluggish using that clip rather than the 1440 clips?

                    No, I noticed no difference.

                    • 7. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Midiocre system
                      FelixUnderwood Level 2

                      Curt, that actually makes sense. Similar to running bigger power supplies in computers. They've got more resources for the same amount of work.

                      • 8. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                        cts51911 Level 1

                        How is the system when you Scrub?  You didn't do that in your video.

                        • 9. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                          Curt Wrigley Level 4

                          It scrubs pretty well. 

                          • 10. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                            cts51911 Level 1

                            I've got an i7 pc with 6 gigs.  I can only scrub a few seconds.

                             

                            I know avchd is cpu intensive but it seems to work fine for a few seconds at any point in the timeline.

                             

                            I'm thinking that 6 gigs is a bit low.  Will 12gb improve?

                            • 11. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                              Curt Wrigley Level 4

                              I didnt have a very long timeline as these were all downloaded clips; but i have no problems scrubbing.  More mem wouldnt hurt, but I suspect scrubbing is mostly cpu and io.  What us your disk situation>

                              • 12. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                cts51911 Level 1

                                I use a single Intel G2 SSD 80gb as the system drive.  I do DSLR AVCHD  100% of the time and my understanding is they are CPU intensive.  Even  with 1 clip on the timeline I can not scrub smoothly for more than 2  seconds.

                                A shame that a single i7 930 is not enough if the CPU is the culprit.

                                 

                                Widdling the project to 1 clip level improve the situation the most.  So I'm leaning towards the CPU being the problem.

                                • 13. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                  John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  No matter what it is, if you really only have ONE drive, you are below specification

                                   

                                  You need a MINIMUM of two drives... one for all software and one for video files

                                   

                                  A third drive for all temporary files is often used

                                  • 14. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                    Curt Wrigley Level 4

                                    Agree with John.   With one disk and low mem your system is under spec.

                                    • 15. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                      shooternz Level 6
                                      I use a single Intel G2 SSD 80gb as the system drive.

                                       

                                      ..and your media files reside where?

                                      • 16. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                        vdoeditr Level 1

                                        Hey Curtis,

                                         

                                         

                                        I thank you for taking the time to make the video of your system and how it runs AVCHD footage.

                                         

                                        My problem with my machine, which is very comparable to your system is this.

                                         

                                        Even in CS4 I can get my machine to play 60 sec of AVCHD, but I do long-form 4 camera productions.  So my clips are 1920x1080 and 30 - 40 mins long each and I have to run all four of them in the multicam veiwer to edit them.  This just doesn't happen.  So right now I have to render smaller proxies to do the multicam then relink to the HD files for rendering.

                                         

                                        So what system WILL edit 4 cameras worth of full 1920x1080 HD clips 30-45 min long each in the multicamera viewer without stuttering all over the place and freezing?

                                         

                                         

                                        thanks in advance for anyone's help on this.

                                        • 17. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                          cts51911 Level 1

                                          ESATA single drives for media storage.

                                           

                                          I think I'll get another 80gb SSD as a dedicated temp drive plus upgrade to 12gb tomorrow.

                                           

                                          Using single SSD for program and temp drive now.  I just assumed it had enough bandwidth but it all makes sense seeing now...bottleneck.

                                           

                                          Is the 80gb SSD large enough dedicated temp drive considering I do small avchd clips mostly from Panasonic GH1 + larger clips from Canon 5d2?

                                          • 18. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                            shooternz Level 6

                                            SSDs dont seem to be particulalrly advantageous in NLE systems.

                                             

                                            80GB is nothing in editing terms no matter what.  Spend the money on decent spec SATA drives.

                                             

                                            Checkout the hardware forums.

                                            • 19. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                              Curt Wrigley Level 4

                                              vdoeditr wrote:

                                               

                                               

                                               

                                              So what system WILL edit 4 cameras worth of full 1920x1080 HD clips 30-45 min long each in the multicamera viewer without stuttering all over the place and freezing?

                                               

                                               

                                              thanks in advance for anyone's help on this.

                                              Likely; nothing.   I dont have long AVCHD clips to test with as I avoid AVCHD so I could be wrong.  Maybe some monster system can handle 4 streams of avchd. Its not an issue of resolution; its an issue of really aggresive temporal compression..

                                               

                                              But editing HDV or P2 in multcam is no problem.  If you do this a lot; you might consider getting rid of avchd.

                                              • 20. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                rkbkbvrkbqfvvkjbqfvkbkqfj Level 2

                                                I have the i7 930 with a 4800 and with the "right" codec, the timeline scrubs with no problem - on a mediocre disk and only 6Gb RAM.

                                                • 21. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                  Anthony Abegglen Level 1

                                                  Curt thanks for this it has really helped me and others , all I can say is your DA MAN

                                                  • 22. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                    FelixUnderwood Level 2

                                                    I use a 256Gb Corsair SSD for the OS, Apps & PPro Project files. Since I have Autosave scheduled every ten minutes, I've found myself never cancelling them on longer projects like I used to on a conventional hard drive. The time saved in booting the OS, loading Apps, loading and saving PPro & AE projects, the reliablility of SSDs, they generate no significant heat, draw very little power, are silent...oh yeah, and you don't have to defrag them either are the reasons that I won't ever go back to conventional drives for the C Drive on any of my computers. SSDs for media? Not practical at present. 256BG is about as high as one can go before the price gets outrageous. I imagine it will be at least 2-4 years before SSDs become affordable to be available in sizes big enough to be practical for media. Funny thing is, the price of SSDs hasn't dropped significantly in the past year. For instance, I paid $670 for my Corsair 256Gb SSD from ZipZoomFly one year ago. The price today? $689. The price actually went UP? I've never seen this happen before in the computer component industry.

                                                       Just like recording to tape is becoming obsolete in video cameras, hard drives will become obsolete in computers some day.

                                                    • 23. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                      If you have a simple setup, yes the boot times may be slightly lower at around 40 times the price per GB over conventional disks. However this does not hold up for a slightly advanced system, because the boot time is completely determined by the stagger up time, the raid bios initialization and the network connectivity. Add to that, that there is no discernable performance difference while editing and I think it an utter waste of money.

                                                      • 24. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                        hpmoon Level 1

                                                        Harm Millaard wrote:

                                                         

                                                        If you have a simple setup, yes the boot times may be slightly lower at around 40 times the price per GB over conventional disks. However this does not hold up for a slightly advanced system, because the boot time is completely determined by the stagger up time, the raid bios initialization and the network connectivity. Add to that, that there is no discernable performance difference while editing and I think it an utter waste of money.

                                                        More predictably poor advice from Harm who wants to own the issue of disk speed entirely (having written a tutorial that is now totally outdated).  Sorry to be harsh, but people come here for relative expertise and the admonishment against SSDs for a "mediocre" system is ridiculous.  SSDs are dirt cheap now (FelixUnderwood is incorrect to say that SSD prices have gone up), so the bad news is, spending almost $700 today on an SSD is a mindless donation to fogeys.  The gap between supposedly "high-end" SSDs and normal ones has narrowed to an almost negligible extent.  And the goofy part is, early adopters who paid so much for an SSD only one year ago are experiencing worse performance than those of us who bought "budget" SSDs in the past half-year that added TRIM support (an absolute must) and improved drive chipsets.

                                                         

                                                        I am getting by with 60gb easily, with Windows 7 x64 and the full CS5 Master Collection, along with about a hundred other applications installed just there.  And you know the rest:  media files on another 7200rpm Caviar Black (cheap) which runs about as fast as Harm's coveted aging RAID 0, and scratch/render files on yet another separate one.  All of this is running zippy on a non-Core i5/i7 system.

                                                         

                                                        Best part:  the SSD was about $150.  Windows boot time is well under 1/2 minute, and all the CS5 applications boot and subsequently perform faster.

                                                         

                                                        Getting an SSD boot drive (with TRIM support) has become 100% mandatory for anyone who is serious about computers today.  Ignore the old-timers.

                                                         

                                                        Oh, and by the way:  RAID is so '90s.  Dead technology.

                                                        • 25. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                          Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                          Being ignorant or stubborn is one thing, but trying to keep it that way is not the best approach, moon, and if you don't believe objectively tested results, that is your prerogative.

                                                           

                                                          Whether that makes your remarks more reliable is open for debate.

                                                           

                                                          SSDs are dirt cheap now

                                                           

                                                          Oh, that is another ridiculous statement. It only costs $ 50 K more to get the same storage capacity that I currently use and you call that dirt cheap??? And it will not give any benefit in speed because of the limitations of the PCIe bus.

                                                           

                                                          7200rpm Caviar Black (cheap) which runs about as fast as Harm's coveted aging RAID 0

                                                           

                                                          Again incorrect. I don't covet a raid0 but a raid30, and that is around 9 - 10 times faster than you coveted Caviar Black.

                                                           

                                                          Oh, and by the way:  RAID is so '90s.  Dead technology.

                                                           

                                                          In London phone booths there is a popular remark: "Oh Lord, help me to keep my big mouth shut untill I know what I'm talking about."

                                                          It may apply to you too.

                                                           

                                                          You make wild claims, like:

                                                           

                                                          All of this is running zippy on a non-Core i5/i7 system.

                                                           

                                                          Show that you are not making all of these things up and show your results on the http://ppbm4.com/Benchmark.html

                                                          • 26. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                            hpmoon Level 1

                                                            Harm Millaard wrote:

                                                             

                                                            Being ignorant or stubborn is one thing, but trying to keep it that way is not the best approach, moon, and if you don't believe objectively tested results, that is your prerogative, just like the bishop who claimed there never was a holocaust.

                                                             

                                                            Whether that makes your remarks more reliable is open for debate.

                                                             

                                                            SSDs are dirt cheap now

                                                             

                                                            Oh, that is another ridiculous statement. It only costs $ 50 K more to get the same storage capacity that I currently use and you call that dirt cheap??? And it will not give any benefit in speed because of the limitations of the PCIe bus.

                                                             

                                                            7200rpm Caviar Black (cheap) which runs about as fast as Harm's coveted aging RAID 0

                                                             

                                                            Again incorrect. I don't covet a raid0 but a raid30, and that is around 9 - 10 times faster than you coveted Caviar Black.

                                                             

                                                            Oh, and by the way:  RAID is so '90s.  Dead technology.

                                                             

                                                            In London phone booths there is a popular remark: "Oh Lord, help me to keep my big mouth shut untill I know what I'm talking about."

                                                            It may apply to you too.

                                                             

                                                            You make wild claims, like:

                                                             

                                                            All of this is running zippy on a non-Core i5/i7 system.

                                                             

                                                            Show that you are not making all of these things up and show your results on the http://ppbm4.com/Benchmark.html

                                                            Through your response, you made crispy clear how aggressive you are trying to persuade people here, while giving poor advice and not reading things with any care.

                                                             

                                                            1. The issue was boot drives, and you knew it.  So the idea of spending $50k on SSDs to match your total storage capacity, rather than a pittance on the mere boot drive, was a desperate red herring.  And you knew that too.

                                                             

                                                            2. If you can't afford a RAID30 as you admit, then don't bother mentioning it.  What remains is the fact that you (and so many other old-timers) are basking in a RAID0 with pre-Caviar Black drives and thinking you're in Heaven.  I have two Caviar Blacks, spent very little on them, and I get faster read/write speeds than RAID0 arrays with slightly older drives.  Did you notice that technology advances quickly?

                                                             

                                                            3. The objective is to get a CS5 workflow environment (especially with the Mercury Playback Engine and GPU acceleration, about which you've dished similarly flawed advice) where speed limitations diminish to almost nothing.  I've got that with my non-Core i5/i7 system, and instead of geeking out I'm simply using that toolbox to create.  Rather than procure.

                                                             

                                                            One last thing:  Stop getting emotional and offended when you confront disagreement.  This is a user forum, and you are not an Adobe employee.

                                                            • 27. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                              Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                              1. Had you read my post, you would know that SSD's are of NO influence on boot times, when one uses network connectivity, raid controllers, staggered spin-up etc. Waiting 5 seconds for PCIe to initialize, raid bios to be loaded, etc, makes SSD's no faster than conventional disks. Reread my post and maybe you will understand it.

                                                               

                                                              2. You haven't read many of my posts, otherwise you would not make these assumptions. You are way off. Better read first, before making these statements. Oh, and my yearning came into being over a year ago. Had you known what you are talking about, you would have known that I have a rather massive raid30.

                                                               

                                                              3. Care to give an example of 'flawed advise'?

                                                               

                                                              One last thing: Stop giving unfounded, unsubstantiated and seriously flawed advise, you are not up-to-date or just ignorant.

                                                              • 28. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                                Dailey Pike Level 1

                                                                                                    HARD DRIVE - THE MOVIE

                                                                 

                                                                INT. ADOBE FORUM - DAY

                                                                 

                                                                                                    hpmoon

                                                                 

                                                                  If I was your son... I'd give you poison!!

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                                                    HARM

                                                                 

                                                                  If I was your father... I'd drink it.

                                                                 

                                                                END OF SCENE

                                                                • 29. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                                  hpmoon Level 1

                                                                  I'm really pleased that all of this is bringing a healthy skepticism to the forum.  I can't possibly keep up with all the responses, ranging from Harmful advice to satire from a screenwriter wannabe - but self-appointed experts (especially when they're wrong) always deserve a good helping of democracy.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                                    Dailey Pike Level 1

                                                                    [Mod edit: Childish innuendo removed.  ]

                                                                    • 31. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                                      Curt Wrigley Level 4

                                                                      These post are both straying from topic and straying from advice to attacks.   Please swing this back to a civil thread or it will be locked.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                                        hpmoon Level 1

                                                                        Curt Wrigley wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        These post are both straying from topic and straying from advice to attacks.   Please swing this back to a civil thread or it will be locked.

                                                                        Agreed.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                                          Dailey Pike Level 1

                                                                          Sorry about the childish innuendo.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                                            Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional

                                                                            More mod edits.  Please take Curt's advice.

                                                                             

                                                                            -Jeff

                                                                            • 35. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                                              Anthony Abegglen Level 1

                                                                              Awwwwwwwwwww Common guys. Take a smoke break. If you can't contribute to the discussion in a sensible way, then just shut up. After all, you are, I presume grown-up men. It's not necessary to get personal or crude.  Be nice to one another. Kiss and make up. He he he.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                                                hpmoon Level 1

                                                                                GavinABE wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                Awwwwwwwwwww Common guys. Take a smoke break. If you can't contribute to the discussion in a sensible way, then just shut up. After all, you are, I presume grown-up men. It's not necessary to get personal or crude.  Be nice to one another. Kiss and make up. He he he.

                                                                                Seriously, I don't know whether these messages are Harm and/or Yeliad just logging in as a different user, but they need to stop per the mod's advice.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Demo of CS5 MPE with AVCHD on Mediocre system
                                                                                  Dailey Pike Level 1

                                                                                  Sound advice from the guy that started all this.