10 Replies Latest reply on Jun 15, 2010 7:05 AM by deejjjaaaa

    issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter

    deejjjaaaa Level 2

      Hi,

       

      if I will use Sigma SPP raw converter (3.5.x or 4.x) to work with .X3F raw files and select "monochrome" WB there and then quit SPP leaving that setting (SPP stores processing settings in .X3F files, almost like you can do w/ .DNG files) then Adobe ACR v5.x / 6.x for whatever reason will allow to process .X3F as a greyscale image, I mean ACR will have a lot of controls disable (like WB, vibrance, saturation, ...). So I need to go back to SPP and change WB settings to anything different from "monochrome" to be able to process .X3F in ACR normally. Can it be fixed or Adobe is using some Sigma provided SDK to open .X3F files and locked into what Sigma says it can or can't ? Because it looks stupid that settings used in Sigma's raw converter are affecting what ACR can or can't do !

       

      Thank you.

        • 1. Re: issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter
          deejjjaaaa Level 2

          this behavior of ACR is more than strange when you see that for example SilkyPix (which I guess have the same SDK from Sigma/Foveon ?) can open the same .X3F file w/o resorting to greyscale only processing even if you will quit Sigma PhotoPro leaving WB set to "monochrome" (and thus recorded in .X3F in a ".DNG-like" fashion)... any chance Adobe team will correct that feature in ACR ? it is really inconvenient when you are using 2 raw converters on the same file to see where you will get the best (subjective) output to remember that you need to leave WB settings in SPP not in "monochrome" to be able to work in color mode in ACR... anybody ?

          • 2. Re: issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter
            ThomasKrueger Level 1

            Also in Lightroom 3 remains  the setting of Sigma Photo Pro 4 and 3.5.

             

            After testing the output to 16bit tiff from Sigma Photo Pro 4 and 3.5, from an X3F file in Lightroom and converted files from X3F to DNG with the latest Adobe DNG Converter I will switch to a DNG workflow, because with DNG files I can use the color profiles created with the Colorchecker Passport. So no more trouble with strange color reproduction and fixed white balance settings in Sigma Photo Pro. Tested with raw files from the Sigma DP2.

            • 3. Re: issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter
              deejjjaaaa Level 2
              I will switch to a DNG workflow, because with DNG files I can use the  color profiles created with the Colorchecker Passport.

               

              Yes, we can (c) use DNG profiles with native Sigma .X3F files (not only w/ .converted .DNG files), albeit Adobe does not make that as easy as w/ other raw files, but well - when something like that stopped us ?

               

              here is .X3F file w/ the custom made profile:

               

              prooflink = XRFDCP.jpg

               

              http://img36.imageshack.us/img36/2192/xrfdcp.jpg

               

               

              and with the "embedded" profile

               

              XRFDCPEMB.jpg

               

              prooflink = http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/8681/xrfdcpemb.jpg

               

              but certainly the question to ACR developers is - why the hassle, why can't we just simple copy .DCP file to the proper directory and use it w/ .X3F files w/o manual editing of various internals ?

              • 4. Re: issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter
                ThomasKrueger Level 1

                That's interesting, what has to be changed to use DNG profiles with native Sigma .X3F files ?

                • 5. Re: issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter
                  deejjjaaaa Level 2
                  what has to be changed to use DNG profiles with native Sigma .X3F files ?

                   

                  ACR/LR developers can change that in a minute - certainly faster than me sitting w/ IDA Pro over the binaries...

                  • 6. Re: issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter
                    Peter&Steven

                    Interesting, I was wondering about all these problems for a long time !

                    I was under the impression that adobe was using a black box provided by Sigma to read the files (a lot of things point to it : the monochrome WB issue, the mandatory noise reduction...)

                    Now that the technique to read DP1-2 files has been publicly discovered (http://www.keithmathome.co.uk/dataformat30.html) I'd like adobe to give a better support for X3F files !

                     

                    So the thing to change, does it have to be in the color profiles or in the binaries of the software ?

                     

                    I recently processed some pics inside SPP, and it's amazing how much better the colors are (a bit too saturated sometimes), I can't get the same results at all in ACR/LR.

                    • 7. Re: issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter
                      deejjjaaaa Level 2
                      I recently processed some pics inside SPP, and it's amazing how much better the colors are (a bit too saturated sometimes), I can't get the same results at all in ACR/LR.

                       

                      when we are talking about "better" it is a matter of personal preferences... and then you can create your own profiles for ACR, you can't for SPP... then you ought to try SilkyPix for Sigma raws.

                       

                       

                      I was under the impression that adobe was using a black box provided by Sigma to read the files (a lot of things point to it : the monochrome WB issue, the mandatory noise reduction...)

                       

                      I doubt it is a black box - they should have a source code, just may be they signed an agreement which limits what they can do ? which makes me wonder whether ISL (SilkyPix) has the same arrangement with Sigma as SilkyPix does not have for example "monochrome" issue (like ACR which gets stuck into B/W mode if the raw file was left marked as monochrome by SPP)... or ISL reverse engineered the file format and wrote the code all by itself ?

                       

                      PS:

                       

                      Sigma .X3F @ ISO3200 NR by ACR

                       

                      sdim0473.jpg

                       

                      vs the same by SilkyPix w/o NR and NR done in postprocessing

                       

                      sdim0473sprgb2.jpg


                      • 8. Re: issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter
                        Peter&Steven Level 1

                        My black box statement was maybe a bit strong, I was thinking about something along what you say. The format was reverse engineered recently (silkypix, MonoVeon, and a few days ago RAW developer 1.8.10)

                         

                        Of course color perception is subjective, but in the case of low-light + artificial lighting, the color problems I see in ACR vs SPP (skin tones), are well above a taste preference. And this is visible in the example you posted : the skin tone patch on the chart is almost the same as the orange/yellow patch (with different luminance)... A profile will have a hard time to disentangle these two colors !

                        In the same vein I tried profiling my DP1 files (it was crude, as I didn't have a real colorchecker), but some colors that were very close in the color wheel had to be changed to colors very far apart (with values outside the range of what dng profiling can do), which causes some problems for the colors between.

                         

                        Compare LR :

                        http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1205127/Website/images/SDIM0307-3.jpg

                        With SPP :

                        http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1205127/Website/images/SDIM0307sig.jpg

                         

                        Of course with DNG profile tweaking you can get OK results in ACR :http://dl.dropbox.com/u/1205127/Website/images/SDIM0307.jpg

                        But the tweaking here is pretty ad-hoc (you would need a per-iso/ per-exposure one, and the dual illuminant thing is perhaps not enough for such the weird beast that is a foveon sensor). And the mandatory DNG conversion is a hassle.

                        • 9. Re: issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter
                          ThomasKrueger Level 1

                          Yes, the conversion to DNG to be able to attach color profiles in Lightroom is a hassle.

                          Some small camera manufacturers like Leica, Sinar and Hasselblad have adapt native RAW files in DNG format to cut production costs for the software...

                          • 10. Re: issue w/ ACR v6.x/v5.x and WB settings stored in .X3F files by Sigma SPP converter
                            deejjjaaaa Level 2
                            to cut production costs for the software

                             

                            cost are the same be it .DNG or .XYZ...  you still have to write, debug, document, etc the firmware regardless whether it will creare .DNG or .XYZ file, you still either writing your own raw converter or license the 3rd party raw converter and if you write your own raw converter for your own raw file you do not have any costs to reverse engineer anything...