17 Replies Latest reply on May 9, 2010 2:54 PM by Moxtelling

    I'm Confused.... CS5 related

    Capt. Clay

      I have been so excited for CS5 to release that I literally had been bugging the CS reps at Adobe about a release date. They wouldn't tell me the date. Oh well... Finally it comes out and I'm so excited I can't sleep the night I download and install it because I want to play with it.Tried the trial for one night and then bought the master collection yesterday.


      However, I'm frustrated with Premiere Pro (never had a Premiere Pro product before, had the Design Premium suite before). I'm confused because to get the softwae to work and do what I want it to, I have to buy a new graphics card and a new power supply to run it. Thnen I have to cross my fingers that it won't overheat and crash while working with it. I downloaded and used the trial of Sony Vegas for a month and could heap layer upon layer, effect upon effect, and transition upon transition and it didn't skip a beat. If I add one effect (say auto color) to a clip in PP, I get the red line and less than perfect playback. If I add two layers, it struggles.


      What am I missing? I'm going to keep the Master Collection because everything else works awesome. But why is PP so demanding on my system when Vegas can do exactly what I want without a hiccup?


      I'm not complaining so much as I'm confused as to why PP can't work as smoothly and efficiently as Vegas (and I am NO Sony fan at all). I love Adobe and will keep the MC but now instead of buying a new graphics card and power supply, I think I'm just going to buy Vegas in addition to the MC.


      I've got to be missing something here. There must be something that PP can do that Vegas can't that makes us want to jump through all the hoops to get it to work. But, what is it?


      Somebody talk me out of this plan. I can't buy a whole new PC but I can spend $600 to make this work. What's my best option? Buy vegas or try to find an GTX 285 and a Power Supply?


      BTW - I've got an AMD Quad Core, 8Gigs of RAM, and a (lackluster I guess) nVidia 9500 gs.

        • 1. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
          shooternz Level 6
          I am confused...


          Tell us more about your system and O.S ...and then tell us what sort of footage you are editing in what type of sequence?



          There must be something that PP can do that Vegas can't that makes us want to jump through all the hoops to get it to work. But, what is it?


          I didnt jump thru a single hoop to install and run CS5 Production Premium.  The posts in this forum would say that most others didnt as well.

          • 2. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
            Capt. Clay Level 1

            I'm using an HP model Vista 64 bit system with a quad core AMD Phenom processor (can't remember the speed off the top of my head). The specs for it can be found here Computer Specs I know it's nothing special compaired to what many may have.But it handles Vegas and Edius programs without a hitch.


            I'm using AVCHD video shot on aPanasoc AG-HMC150. I'm usually using 720p/24 clips sometimes 720p/60 clips


            When I said it seems like people are jumping throught hoops, I meant that there are threads about video cards and hacks for video cards to get the program to run at it's full potential.


            I really want to be able to use this program without having to buy a new computer. I'm even willling to buy a new video card and power supply if that will help. I just worry that I would spend the money on that and still have the program not work well. I came real close to buying an BFG GeForece GTX 285 last night but I was finding a lot of negative reviews about the card. I wish I could find the EVGA GTX 285 in stock somewhere. But then again, I worry that it'll get here and over heat and then I'll need to buy some cooling mechanism or the card won't fit in my case or thenew power pack that I'd need won't fit or something. Just to get this program to run well. That's kind of frustrating.

            • 3. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
              dradeke Adobe Employee

              Hey Cap,


              You don't HAVE to purchase a new graphics card to see new performance gains.  Premiere Pro CS5 is 64-bit native so it will be very fast and powerful to begin with.


              To embrace the GPU powers, you need an nvidia GPU.  All of those basically need some power from the computer in order to use it.  It DOESN'T necessarily mean you need to go out and get a new power supply.


              In the end, I would recommend you become familiar with CS5 in general and if the editing really takes off for you, you'll be in a good position to decide how and when to implement the GPU acceleration that everyone is talking about.


              I hope this helps,


              • 4. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                Capt. Clay Level 1



                Thanks for the reply. I have played with the PP and as my computer sits, playback gets a little sluggish when adding one or more effect to one layer of video and very sluggish if I add more layers of video or more effects. I would really love for the program to run as smoothly as Vegas does on my system. I would even willing to buy a new GPU and power source if I KNEW that performance would be on par with Vegas.


                So, this is where I'm at, PP Performance is unacceptable as is. It's understandable that I may just not have a computer suited for PP. I'm willing to do what it takes to get it working right (within fiscally responsable reason)and. I'm just worried that I'll spend $600 on a new GPU and power block and still not have fluid performance. On the other hand, I know the Vegas will work as I need with my computer as is. I'm just trying to figure out what I should do.


                Has anyone else used a "big box" retail computer and upgraded the GPU and found performance to come up to par? If so, I would be inclined to lean that route.

                • 5. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                  Curt Wrigley Level 4

                  does this help?   Its a pretty avg system running avchd on cs5.



                  • 6. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                    vdoeditr Level 1




                    I have a quad core machine running win 7 64-bit home prem.  8gb RAM, 10k Velociraptor C: drive, Raid 0 for scratches, 1TB for project files, NVidia GTX260 graph card (which I know is not qualified for MPE) but nonetheless, I don't have a ridiculous machine, but it is no slouch either.


                    I have experienced these issues with PPro on many different systems mac and pc over the years, from CS2 to CS4.  PPRO is a resource HOG......bottom line.  I have put the exact same files that make PPRO stutter all over the place onto a macbook pro using FCP and it plays beautifully......editing to a FW800 Mybook as my scratch drive.  I LOVE the integration that adobe has in the creative suite, but PPro is buggy, locks up, stutters, freezes, etc.....when other NLE's run the same footage fantastic, on the same machine, or other machines that are less powerful.  So I completely understand your frustration.


                    Now onto AVCHD.......which is a whole different conversation.  I also just entered the AVCHD world recently, and I don't care what people say, you are not doing anything major with AVCHD footage native in PPRO without a $10,000+ machine.  I am not talking about taking a 2 min. 720p clip and throwing a transition on it, and a title over it.  I am talking about shooting full res. 1920x1080p footage, and building a multi-layer, multi-effect video, or in my case shooting 4 camera productions that are 1.5 hours long.  REAL WORK not playing around.  I took 4 clips of AVCHD rendered out on the AME to Apple ProRes that were roughly 25-30 min. long, and nested them into a multi-cam seq in PPRO CS4........it would not even budge it.  It locked it up so fast that it caused PPRO to "quit unexpectedly" and that was on a new $8,000+ Mac pro with 8-core Xeon processors, and 12gb RAM that I have access to at a local church in my area.  ARE YOU KIDDING ME?!?  Put the same footage into FC Studio 3 on the same machine and it played it back smoothly......in the multicam window.....while making cuts RT.  I have not played with the new Vegas, however I started on Vegas 6 years ago, and it ran smooth for me then, but I moved to PPRO because it just had more abilities at the time.


                    So, again....I get your frustration.  I like you dont have the time, or want to spend MORE money, to have PPRO.....MAYBE work smoothly.  I am tired of it.  When you work for a small company budget, you HAVE to be wise about how you spend.  I cannot afford to make financial mistakes.  I am in no way trying to say that editing FULL HD is easy or cheap.....but when other softwares, can run footage smoother with more stability and in most cases cost less.  That kinda tells me that I am right for losing faith in PPRO.  I have worked in this industry as a diehard Adobe editor for the last 5 years.....defending Adobe PPRO to literally EVERY other editor that I know locally.  ALL of them are FCP guys, and literally made fun of me for sticking with PPRO.  It is really sad that they look to be right.  I will be honest, there are alot of things that I think PPRO does better, but in now way shape or form can it stand up to FCP in stability.  I would really like to see what CS5 runs like using 4 streams of AVCHD footage 30 min each, played back and edited in the multicam veiwer on a machine like an HP Z800 workstation, that has 16+ gb ram, quadro 4800, internal Raid-0, eight core xeons etc.  maybe that would allow a returned faith in the PPRO that I have stood frustrated by for all these years.  but then who in the "fiscally responsible" world has the 12 grand to buy a machine like that.  I guess for now it is FCP.


                    my 2 cents.


                    Dennis, I would love to hear your input

                    • 7. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                      Curt Wrigley Level 4

                      If you like converting everything to an intermediate codec like FCP does, you could improve performance of highly compressed formats like avchd also in Pr.


                      I think Adobe's strategy to edit native is the right one.  That strategy may be slanted or work better with professional formats more than consumer formats.  But Im ok with that also. 

                      • 8. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                        vdoeditr Level 1



                        I agree 100% with you.  I too think Adobe's native editing approach is fantastic.  However, it just isn't working out that way, with "normal" machines.  I also understand that converting to an inter. codec will work for PPRO as well, and I knew that would get brought up, but if you read what I wrote about locking up the Mac Pro....notice that I HAD converted to ProRes....a very popular editing codec, and it locked up premiere on a very expensive new Mac Pro, while the same footage, in that same machine....ran great in FCP.



                        That's what I would like to be explained.

                        • 9. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                          Curt Wrigley Level 4

                          I do not know all the details of prores options.  Perhaps it was a ver of pro res Pr does not like.  Pro Res is an apple product and apple is notorious for not sharing well.

                          • 10. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                            vdoeditr Level 1

                            my other question, is why does everyone keep refering to AVCHD as a "consumer" format?


                            Although alot of consumer cameras use AVCHD, I would hardly consider a Panasonic HMC-150 a "consumer" camera.  I realize that it falls toward the lower end of cameras in the pro market, but in my area of the U.S.A. people are not spending 2-3 grand on a camera to "play" with.


                            again, just my 2 cents.

                            • 11. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                              vdoeditr Level 1

                              as far as it being a ProRes format that PPRO didnt like......I turned the AVCHD footage to ProRes in the Adobe Media Encoder.......how could it be a form of ProRes, put out of an adobe software that adobe itself didnt like?

                              • 12. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                                Capt. Clay Level 1

                                Didn't say I was "playing with it"... I'm using it to film "webisodes" for a

                                site I make money on (it's a fishing website for those who might wonder what

                                the site is about). And I know you have to spend monet to make money but $3k

                                on a camera, $2k on camera accessories, $1,300 for Adobe MC... the spending

                                has to stop somewhere. I can't Spend $3k for a computer so that I can do

                                what I need to do with my videos that I can do with Vegas for $600.


                                My question (and concern) is this... I can Buy Vegas for $600 or buy a new

                                GTX 285 + new power source for close to the same money. I would PREFER

                                sticking with PP because of the integration with other Adobe programs. But,

                                I am not sold on the fact the a new GPU will fix the issues I've had while

                                editing AVCHD.  I KNOW Vegas will do what I want it to do; flawlessly. It

                                just won't have the seemless workflow with other Adobe programs.


                                So, do I gamble with a new GPU to see if it works because I would like to

                                have the "hand in hand" workflow with the rest of the Adobe products I

                                purchased or do I buy Vegas because I know it will be worry and headache

                                free (even though it won't seemlessly flow with the other Adobe products)?

                                • 13. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                                  Curt Wrigley Level 4

                                  The only reason AVCHD exists, is because flash storage is still too small, slow and expensive.  Once  flash drives can be large, fast and cheap; codecs like AVCHD will disappear forever.  The only real advantage of AVCHD is it makes a small file size.


                                  ON your question on why Pr chocked on your Prores file; someone with more expertise with prores will need to jump in.  But your logic that you can export it so you ought to be able to import it; is not sound.   There are lots of export formats that are bad input formats.

                                  • 14. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                                    dradeke Adobe Employee

                                    Curt Wrigley wrote:


                                    If you like converting everything to an intermediate codec like FCP does, you could improve performance of highly compressed formats like avchd also in Pr.


                                    ...by using Adobe Media Encoder to convert things to an intra-frame codec.


                                    Basically, we believe native is the best way but if you want a different workflow, we've got your bases covered.



                                    • 15. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                                      dradeke Adobe Employee
                                      notice that I HAD converted to ProRes....a very popular editing codec, and it locked up premiere on a very expensive new Mac Pro, while the same footage, in that same machine....ran great in FCP.



                                      That's what I would like to be explained.


                                      I will say then that it is either something that you're doing or something with the system.  From everything I see here, it's not Adobe (and I'm happy to fess up if it is me!)


                                      Try this - take a prores clip and drag it to the new item button at the bottom of the project panel.  Your icon will present a '+' sign.  This will create a new sequence with the attributes of the clip.  Now test the playback.  If it works well, then it was your sequence settings or editing mode.  If not, then you have to look at culprits in your hardware.


                                      Hope this helps,


                                      • 16. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                                        Jeff Bellune Level 5



                                        Here's a test: Lay down one AVCHD clip on V1.  Then overlay a second clip on V2 and offset it in the frame; i.e., move it, don't scale it.  Play back the sequence.  Does it play back smoothly?  If so, then a new GPU will likely speed things up for you when you start adding effects and transitions.  If not, then your CPU is too weak to decode multiple AVCHD clips on the fly.  A new GPU likely won't help much.  Notice that I say "likely" in both cases, since there are too many other variables that could affect what's going on with your system.


                                        Last time I checked, and it's been a while, Vegas doesn't edit AVCHD natively.  It generates proxy files for a better editing experience.  Is that still the case?



                                        • 17. Re: I'm Confused.... CS5 related
                                          Moxtelling Level 1

                                          Hi Capt. Clay


                                          I´ve been through the same frustratiuons as you. I have spend lots of money to get a descent system up running that could edit AVCDH just relatively smooth. I will not put my head on the block, but I guess you will gain quite a performance boost in playback if you buy a GTX 285. I had a GTX 260 that I "hacked" using the hack that circles around in this forum. But I realized that was not the best solution in the long run for me - editting videos for a living (partly) - so I invested in the much more expensive FX 3800. Did not se much of a difference between the new FX 3800 and the soft-hacked GTX 260 - so I think you will do just fine with the GTX 285.


                                          I do also use the Panasonic AG-HMC151 - and have had a lot of issues edditting AVCHD files in PPro 4 - but in CS5 - and with the MPE (using either of my Nvidia cards) I experience much better playback performance inside PPro. Like 3-4 layers playing smoothly at the same time with two-three effects. But please do remember this only goes for accellerated effects - not fx. Shadow/Highlight that is not yet accellerated using the GPU. Adding fx. Shadow/Highlight will make all your AVCHD clips sluggish/stutter in playback on less you have a i7 985X or so...and 899445898 GB RAM


                                          But the trees does not grow into the heaven (do you say like that in US too?):


                                          Recently some of us in this forum have experinced a bit more serious issue related to AVCHD: - If you put a clip into the sourcemonitor - trim and make a subclip from this clip and add it to the timeline - go a bit forward in the source, trim and make another subclip (from the same clip) and put this on the timeline just after the other subclip from before - add a Cross dissolve or whatever transition you want - it stutters/pauses in playback completely. Sometimes even crashes PPro This excact same issue was also present  in CS4. It has now been reported to Adobe, and they are about to do something about it, we hear! Looking forward to that!!!!!!!! This is a workflow you do alot - all the time...


                                          So you might imagine my frustration trying to edit a 45 minutes video consisting of maybee 5-10 loong AVCHD clips put together - using shadow/highlight and transitions between clips. Using CS4. This was hell. I was going mad - used tons of hours editting, stuttering, pausing, crashing - CPU went 100% - and thought it all was related to my PC - but it turns out that it all was because of a bug inside PPro 4 - and it has suirvived into CS5. At the same time Shadow/highlight is a very slow effect for some reason? Or hardware demanding? - but nevertheless it does make thing go very stutering/slow in both CS4 and also now in CS5. But in CS5 we at least have got GPU accelerated effetcs and tranistions - (mostly)...


                                          So - I do not know what to recommend for you? Maybe you should simply try to buy VEGSAS instead. I have tried the trial and the Platinum played back much more fluid than PPro - but if you try the Vegas Pro you will also experience issues.  I tried both the Platinum and the Pro - and it seems that if you go Pro you also go "Your-PC-Is-Not-worth-a-$". It stutters too if you choose high res. and some effects...


                                          But it is so frustrating using all that money on new PCs, upgrades - messing around with RAM, cooling, disks, RAIDs (yet to be done for my concern), new expensive graphiccards, new software upgrades that only partly helps and just makes new issues pop up.


                                          I have used about double the time mesing around with hardware/software issues than I have used on editting earning money the last year. Using a lot of time and money. But right now I imagine I can see the light in the distance at last - a somewhat smoothly editting experience with AVCHD. It looks nice right now on my PC - just this clip-clip-tranistion issue - then I think we will be going all right for a while.But this is where I draw a line (I guess) - I do not want to buy any more equipment for now. I have used so much money and time on this - every time I invest I do not see a huge difference in performance. Just small small performance gains for every 200$ investment....so all in all - but you do not get there for nothing!


                                          My system BTW:


                                          i7 920

                                          12 GB RAM

                                          2 X 1,5 HDD (No raid - but I am thinking about buying 4 more disks and setup a RAID 0 for scratch and files - but right now I have spend all my budget on the Videocard - so no RAID for at least the next 6 months or so - have to make some money first).

                                          FX 3800 (just changed my 11 month old GTX 260 - it is not officially supported). Cost me around 1100$

                                          Master Collection upgrade from Design Premium (cost me about 2000$).


                                          Endless nights and lots of hours lost working time on trying to solve issues related to PPro 4/5 and AVCHD. But like I said -  it is better now with CS5 - and especially if you have one of the supported cards. I´ll stick to Ppro - for now. But I sincerly hopes that Adobe will make improvements to PPro CS5 to make editting AVCHD a more smooth experience. AVCHD is becoming a more and more commonly used format - not just for hobbyist - but also for semi-pros and even Pros. The AVCHD cameras are low cost, often very lightweighted and as time goes it is also more and more common to mix formats  from different sources. Anyway - who can tell what is done on a 10.000$ and a 1000$ camera sometimes? On youtube no one notice the difference after all.


                                          Hope this helps you in your decission on where to go from here....???