23 Replies Latest reply on May 12, 2010 3:44 PM by ECBowen

    Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter

    ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

      I ask if you have the time and are willing, please post your experiences or feedback with the 285GTX and the limiter whether positive or negative. I will forward to the appropriate parties This is not a official Adobe request or anything incase any are wondering.

        • 1. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
          Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

          I haven't noticed a "limiter" on either of our two BFG 285 GTX's.  As I posted previously, I can stack 20 layers of P2 1080i at varying opacities, add GPU supported effects, blending modes and get decent playback (yellow render line) at full resolution.  I feel we got our money's worth with this card.  I really haven't experienced any card limitations that impress me as being artifically imposed.

          • 2. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
            Scott Chichelli Level 3

            with CS5?

             

            there is a definate 3 layer limit set on the 285 without having to render.

             

            Scott

            ADK

            • 3. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
              Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

              Scott:

               

              Do you mean you have experienced a 3 layer limit using the 285 with Red 4K or do you mean acros the board, for instance with Panasonic 1080i P2 as well?

              • 4. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                Thank you for the feedback. The limiter comes into play on the 285GTX when you add effects to a 4th layer or higher video and leave the tracks active. The yellow line above your sequence will turn red indicating that the effects for that layer will be processed by the CPU and you will have to render out those effects to export them with the sequence. If you monitor your CPU usage once you add effects to a 4th layer or higher, you will see it increases far more for that layer than it did for the previous 3 layers. Basically what the limiter does is force you to render your timeline if you have effects beyond the first 3 layers and increases CPU usage allot more for any effects beyond the 3rd layer. This requires those projects to take more time due to rendering the effects on those layers. For many that may not be an issue but for those with tight deadlines it will be. If you monitor your GPU usage while playing back 3 layers with several effects, you will see the 285GTX is not being pushed hard with just 3 layers. It is not based on the codec of the material. AVCHD and R3D had the same limitation with regards to effects processing and the limiter.

                 

                My request for feedback is to determine if most people are barely pushing their 285GTX cards with 3 layers. Also it is to determine if you would purchase a Quadro card due to the limiter.I will forward this information to our contacts at Nvidia and Adobe to show them the limiter is completely uncalled for. That is the only way we are going to get this changed now or with the Fermi Geforce cards.

                • 5. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                  techflow2010

                  It would be very interesting to know if the limiter is related to the amount of Ram on the graphics card.

                   

                  Since there are 2GB versions of GTX 285 cards. Those btw. do not differ in price that much from 1GB variants.

                  • 6. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                    Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

                    ECBowen wrote:

                     

                    "The limiter comes into play on the 285GTX when you add effects to a 4th layer or higher video and leave the tracks active. The yellow line above your sequence will turn red indicating that the effects for that layer will be processed by the CPU and you will have to render out those effects to export them with the sequence."

                     

                    That simply is not happening on our i7 920 system with a BFG 285 GTX.  I just put together 6 layers. 5 are picture in picture.  Fast Color Corrector on one clip, Gaussian Blur on the first clip, the same on another.  Picture in picture spinning.  No red render line.  Playback is smooth at full resolution.  I will post a video in a bit.

                    • 7. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                      Scott Chichelli Level 3

                      its an artificial limiter, it has nothing to do with memory

                      • 8. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                        Add the fast color corrector to all the tracks. Scaling in CS5 is not considered an effect with regards to the MPE.

                        • 9. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                          Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

                          Here is a short clip of 6 layers playing Panasonic P2 1080i...  Yellow render line, spinning picture in picture Gaussian Blur Fast Color Corrector.  I have been able to go to 20 layers with smooth playback with our GTX 285.  If you guys are saying that the Quadra can handle any effect in the Premiere Pro CS5 effects palette beyond 3 layers without the red render line, then that's a different thing altogether, that would make that expensive Quadra card worth the money to some editors.

                           

                          Video

                          • 10. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                            Do you have the the Color Corrector and and Blur on all of the video tracks when they are all active at the same time? If you have 3 tracks active at 1 point and then activate another as you stop 1 then your still not exceeding the 3 layer limit that forces you to render. Also the Scaling and direct manipulation does not count toward the effects limiter either. Only the FX effects like fast color corrector, sharpen, video limiter and so forth do and 4 tracks/layers or more with effects have to be active at the same time ie timecode spot. What we were saying is where the limiter initializes. For the Quadro it doesn't initialize at all. For the 285GTX it initializes when 4 or more layers with FX effects are active at the same time not counting scaling or direct manipulation.

                            • 11. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                              Craisans Level 1

                              dradeke wrote:

                               

                              Yes, GeForce cards are capped at three layers as a result of the above.  In practice, most timelines don't exceed three layers of video often.  For those that do, you can always use the NEST command to get around the three layer limitation.

                               

                              it's from this thread

                              http://forums.adobe.com/message/2787223#2787223

                               

                               

                              Anyone understand how to do this?

                               

                              Thanks,
                              Matt

                              • 12. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

                                I can stack picture in picture well beyond 3 layers with our GTX 285 from BFG, all with fast color corrector applied at different settings, get a yellow render line and smooth playback at full resolution.  Even if I add something that gives me a red render line, it still plays back smooth up to a certain layer point, but well beyond 3 layers.

                                 

                                The odd thing is... IF I go 20 layers deep and add a final clip with fast color corrector on top to make the layer depth 21, it is then that I get a red render line.  If I add transparent video or another clip WITHOUT any effects except opacity or scale to layer 22, the red render line goes back to yellow.

                                • 13. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                  Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

                                  I read Craisans post related to Dennis' comments related to Quadra cards degrading gracefully.  That is exactly what my 285 GTX does.  I don't experience this 3 layer cutoff people are talking about.

                                   

                                  Related to Nested Sequences, I believe Dennis was referring to creating a "composite" of up to three layers in one sequence, dragging that sequence from the Bin to a new sequence, then stacking more media on top of that.

                                  • 14. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                    ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                    I have no idea why it's not showing for you with your project. I am testing DVCProHD right now with 4 layers and just the Gausian Blur effect on each layer. Each Layer scaled to 50% for 4 PinP view and the red line appears as soon as I add that blur to the 4th layer. I would have to remote into your system and see what is going on in the Timeline and your setup as far as video driver and registry entries for video if somehow your system is not initializing the limiter. You are the only person that I know of reporting that your 285GTX is not initializing the limiter.

                                    • 15. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                      Chuck A. McIntyre Level 3

                                      ECBowen:

                                       

                                      Try dragging transparent video on top of your fourth layer and let me know if the red render line disappears.  How is the playback?

                                      • 16. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                        WOW you were right. That turns off the limiter. That is awesome. Going to export the project and make sure the effects come through but that does seem to confuse the limiter script.

                                         

                                        Hehe would be like playing records backwards in the video world

                                        • 17. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                          Mortimer IOU Level 2

                                          The transparent video certainly turns the red to yellow, and that is startling, but I'm not sure it makes any difference on the playback performance. I am getting the same real-time playback with red on 8 layers as I do with yellow on 3 layers. In my case I have no indication of any layer limit, aside from the red/yellow line, and I'm not convinced there really is a limit in effect. Does anyone have a surefire objective test for this, aside from watching the playback and making a judgement based on what you see?

                                          • 18. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                            The yellow bar indicates that the effects if any will be processed realtime by the GPU. When it turns to red, then any effects on the tracks that turned red will be processed by the CPU. The limiter does not mean you can only ever have 3 layers. It just shifts the effects processing back to the CPU for those effects on the sequence that caused it to go red. If you download a program like Everest, you can watch the GPU load both GPU and GPU ram usage. This will allow you to see where the load is going based on what is being sent to the GPU at that time. If you bring up the task manager performance, you can watch the CPU load increase more than normal when the timeline goes red since the CPU is handling those effects.

                                             

                                            BTW Chuck, is your sequence exporting without rendering without any issues. Mine keeps causing PP to crash about 20% through the export.

                                            • 19. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                              Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              Since I real CS5-less I could only guess that watching CPU utilization versus GPU utlization might be an answer.  But then I guess that is not a simple test.

                                              • 20. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                                Mortimer IOU Level 2

                                                With 3 layers all with accelerated effects, CPU usage is less than 15%. Adding 7 additional layers raises CPU to above 95%. Adding the transparent video layer changes the red bar to yellow, but CPU usage still stays over 95%. So this must mean the yellow bar is not a meaningful indicator when there are more than 3 layers. Whether it is red or yellow, the CPU is still doing the work on all MPE accelerated layers over 3.


                                                • 21. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                  Thanks for the information. I was wondering that myself. Can you see what the increase is from layer 3 to layer 4. Then add the transparent layer above layer 4 and see what the load jumps to. Basically I want to try and stay away from the CPU usage maximum to do this. With the MPE, the decode/encode is done at the CPU level so there is still allot per layer handled by the CPU. Once you get close to the CPU max usage it's harder to determine what is shifting to the GPU and what is not since the GPU is waiting for the CPU to send data to it to process.

                                                  • 22. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                                    Mortimer IOU Level 2

                                                    Eleven video and audio layers, all turned off -- CPU 0

                                                    Hit play -- CPU 2 to 3 %

                                                    Turn on one accelerated video layer -- CPU 3 to 5 %

                                                    Turn on two accelerated video layers -- CPU 3 to 5 %

                                                    Turn on three accelerated video layers -- CPU 15 to 20 %

                                                    Turn on four accelerated video layers -- red bar and CPU 70 to 90 %

                                                    Add one transparent video layer -- yellow bar comes back and CPU 60 to 70 %

                                                    Turn off fourth accelerated video layer, but leave transparent video on -- yellow bar remains and CPU 20 to 30 %

                                                    • 23. Re: Comments on the 285GTX and the Limiter
                                                      ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                      Very nice test and thank you for the information. Sounds like it's accelerating again some if not most but either the limiter is still hindering it some or the bottle neck we have seen in testing is showing. Thanks again for your testing with this.