12 Replies Latest reply on May 14, 2010 1:19 AM by platduck

    Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.

    David Zeno

      Hi Harm,

       

      I remember reading on our forum here that RAID 0 is the way to go, if you wish Premiere to be better optimized.

       

      I've always heard that 3 drives are the best -

       

      - drive 1 - OS and Premiere Pro

      - drive 2 - data files that Premiere Pro writes and reads

      - drive 3 - scratch disc.

       

      Ok, that's easy enough to understand, but now add RAID 0 and what happens ? does this mean a 4th drive ?

       

      RAID 0 as much as I can understand, is a mirror of your C: drive ( drive 1 in this case ) so would this mean 4 phyical different drives

      in the computer ?

       

      Other than that, my real question is this - how do I create this RAID 0 after I've installed a new hard drive to accomplish this ?  So to clarify,

      I have my drive 1, which contains the OS and PP.  I'm assuming this is the drive that we would want to duplicate - in the way of creating

      a RAID 0 setup ?

       

      Thanks,

      Dave

        • 1. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
          Harm Millaard Level 7

          Dave,

           

          Read this link: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2397179#2397179

           

          With only 3 disks I advise against using a raid0.

          • 2. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
            David Zeno Level 1

            Hi Harm,

             

            I'm glad I asked , thanks for your time.

             

            I'll keep my system the way it is.

             

            Dave.

             

            P.S. - I didn't really understand the chart in that link you gave me, but if I understand generally what happens

            is that the more data your hard drive has on it, the slower it will become.

             

            With that in mind, how empty should drives be, when using them with Premiere Pro ? , and which drive is the

            most important to keep the most empty do you think ?

             

            Thanks Harm.

            • 3. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
              platduck Level 1

              Hi,

               

              To be able to answer your question properly you will have to explain to us your workflow.

               

              For example:

               

              Are you editing HD or SD?  From what camera are you getting the footage? what files? in which format? what are you planning on exporting to?

               

              If you read through, and understand the link that Harm posted, you should be able to ask better questions, because no offense, but from your post I gather that you don't really understand what a RAID is all about.

               

              To give you an example, at my facility we edit anything from DV to uncompressed HD (Sony HDCAM), so we run systems with 1 or 2 drives that run the whole system, to other systems with multiple RAIDS of different RAID levels because we need the high read/write speeds that only a RAID can deliver.

               

              Hope that helps.

              • 4. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
                David Zeno Level 1

                Hi platduck

                 

                I'm editing HD video.  However, this is just a hobby.  Files are from an HV20 camcorder, and a T2i DSLR.  All at 1080p.

                 

                Quad core machine at 2.83 Ghz with 8 Gb of ram.  Windows 7, 64 Bit.

                 

                No offense taken - I don't understand RAID at all.  I kind of understood that RAID 0 means to mirror your C: drive onto another drive,

                and then somehow your computer's OS sees this extra space and somehow makes your computer faster.  However, this may not be correct,

                because in theory I could just go out and change my 500 Gb drive ( C: ) for a 2 Tb drive, and now the drive is 4x as large, but I don't see it

                speeding up Premiere Pro much at all.

                 

                I tried reading up on RAID 0 and well, it's over my head.  Talking about RAID 1, and RAID 2, RAID 3, RAID 4, RAID 5, well I don't even have a clue

                what all that means.

                 

                if you wish to give me and all of us here that don't understand what RAID 0 is, I'd be much obliged to listen, as I'm sure many others would be.

                 

                 

                Thanks,

                Dave

                 

                platduck wrote:

                 

                Hi,

                 

                To be able to answer your question properly you will have to explain to us your workflow.

                 

                For example:

                 

                Are you editing HD or SD?  From what camera are you getting the footage? what files? in which format? what are you planning on exporting to?

                 

                If you read through, and understand the link that Harm posted, you should be able to ask better questions, because no offense, but from your post I gather that you don't really understand what a RAID is all about.

                 

                To give you an example, at my facility we edit anything from DV to uncompressed HD (Sony HDCAM), so we run systems with 1 or 2 drives that run the whole system, to other systems with multiple RAIDS of different RAID levels because we need the high read/write speeds that only a RAID can deliver.

                 

                Hope that helps.

                • 5. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
                  Harm Millaard Level 7

                  Dave,

                   

                  To help you understand what a raid0 is, consider a dishwasher (raid0).

                   

                  If you have a small dishwasher that can hold 2 plates (2 disk raid0), it washes the plates about twice as fast as by hand, because the plates are washed at the same time, instead of consecutively.

                   

                  If you have a dishwasher that holds 8 plates (8 disk raid0), it washes the plates about eight times as fast as by hand.

                   

                  However, if the dishwasher fails, you may lose all your plates.

                   

                  Just take your time reading the article. It may seem like abacadabra to you now, but if you take your time, it will become much clearer.

                   

                  Mirroring disks is a completely different thing. It is like someone steps in front of a mirror and his image is replicated in the mirror, so you have two images, one the real image, and the other the mirror image. If you store both, you will always be able to reconstruct the other, even when the mirror breaks.

                  • 6. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
                    platduck Level 1

                    Hi Dave,

                     

                    That is in fact incorrect, RAID0 DOES NOT MIRROR your drive, that is RAID1. I'll give you a quick rundown.

                     

                    Under regular single disk setup your system reads and writes data to/from one disk at one time, at a speed of around 90-100 mb/s.

                     

                    Now most uncompressed and higher end video needs more speed than that, for instance 1 uncompressed HD frame might be 12mb in size, at 25 fps that give you 25x12=300mb/s. So in other words Premiere would need to read from that disk at a rate of 300mb/s to be able to play that video smoothly. And that is only 1 stream.

                     

                    If you can understand that, you are moving closer to understanding the need for having a RAID in the first place.

                     

                    In RAID 0 setup, your system reads and writes to 2 disks at once, it distributes the data between both. so in other words in theory your RAID 0 disk (2 disks put together to from 1 disk) should be twice as fast. Add one more into the RAID 0, and it becomes 3 times as fast, add 1 more and it becomes 4 times as fast etc etc. Because the system distributes the data between the disks, if one of those disks fail, your bigger RAID 0 disk will also fail.

                     

                    in RAID 1 the system mirrors the drive. But you dont ever see the 2nd disk. The system will do this in the background. BUT now it needs to write that 1 piece of data twice, so in other words a RAID 1 puts extra strain on your system. That is why you wont see a RAID 1 used in many video systems. If 1 of those disks fail, you still have all the data on the 2nd disk.

                     

                    please ask some more questions if you dont understand. If you can get your head around that I'll try and explain RAID 5 and so on.

                     

                    the figures in the message above is just an example, dont quote me on 1 stream of video being 300mb/s

                    • 7. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
                      David Zeno Level 1

                      This is really getting exciting.  I'm learning lots here.  Thanks Harm, thanks Platduck

                       

                      I am now seeing what Harm meant when he said if I only have 3 discs, then it's not worth doing the RAID 0 setup.

                       

                      - I'm guessing because, you would want perhaps a minimum of 5 drives.

                       

                      So

                       

                      drive 1 OS

                      drive 2 data

                      drive 3 scratch disc

                       

                      then - drive 4 - part of raid 0 setup

                      then - drive 5 - part of raid 0 setup.

                       

                      Ok, so, out of the first 3 drives listed, WHICH drive would be part of the RAID 0 setup ?

                       

                      since we are talking about reading and writing, then I'll assume that it will be neither of the first 3 drives listed.....

                      hmm, well now that I think about it - it ... drive 4 and drive 5 would have to be part of drive 2 - because it is where the data is stored.

                       

                      Am I getting this ... sort of ?

                       

                      So in theory, - I could have 4 drives also for a RAID 0 setup.

                       

                      drive 1 - OS

                      drive 2 - data

                      drive 3 - scratch disc

                      drive 4 - also data -...... drive 2 + drive 4 = the RAID 0 setup.

                       

                      I hope I'm getting this right gentlemen.

                       

                      thanks for yoru time !

                       

                      Dave.

                       

                      P.S. - Is this RAID 0 setup something I can do at home, by purchasing another couple of hard drives ? or is this something that entails a guy who knows how to do this, AND special software to run it all ?

                      • 8. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
                        platduck Level 1

                        Hi,

                         

                        I will try and answer your questions below.

                         

                        >> I'm guessing because, you would want  perhaps a minimum of 5 drives.

                         

                        You should start thinking as a RAIDED set of drives as 1 drive rather than a individial drives, or at least differentiate between the physical drives (HDD) and the drive that your OS will see. For example I have 8 drives in a RAID 5 that I use for capturing HD media to, but Windows sees all 8 those HDD (Hard Disk Drives) as 1 drive (E: Media).

                         

                        >>So

                        >>

                        >>drive 1 OS

                        >>drive 2 data

                        >>drive 3  scratch disc

                         

                        >>then  - drive 4 - part of raid 0 setup

                        >>then - drive 5 - part of raid 0  setup.

                         

                        >>Ok,  so, out of the first 3 drives listed, WHICH drive would be part of the  RAID 0 setup ?

                         

                        Neither. Lets see if this makes sense to you. This is how I would have it setup if I were you.

                         

                        A - 1st drive (1 physical HDD) - OS

                        B - 2nd drive (2 physical HDD's in RAID0 to form one drive in OS) - media

                        C - 3nd drive (2 physical HDD's in RAID0 to form one drive in OS) - scratch

                         

                        That should give you fast read speeds for your media on B, and fast  write speeds for your renders and cache files on C

                         

                        Something else you  would need to consider is where exactly you want things sped up. Do you  want your renders to be quick?  Do you want to be able to playback your  captured clips without it dropping frames? becuase then you can drop one  drive and use a single HDD for either the media or scratch drives.


                        Remember, the only reason we use RAID's in video systems is to get faster read/write speeds. Keep that in mind, think about what needs to happen with the video files, and things should be more clear.

                        • 9. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
                          platduck Level 1

                          >>P.S. - Is this RAID 0 setup something I can do at home, by purchasing another couple of hard drives ? or is this something that entails a guy who knows how to do this, AND special software to run it all ?

                           

                          That all depends on your budget, your motherboard, whether you built your machine to start with, whether you have any PC building skills etc etc

                           

                          Most motherboards have onboard RAID chips, and its relatively easy to set it up. It can even be done in Windows (RAID0 is called stripped disks in the disk management control panel). But I wont ever recommend you do that in Windows. One OS crash and you might lose all your data. Always do a hardware raid.

                           

                          Depending on your budget I would go with a pre built RAID and dedicated RAID card from a supplier like caldigit (www.caldigit.com) that produce storage products specifically for the video industry

                          • 10. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
                            David Zeno Level 1

                            Hi Platduck ,

                             

                            you know your stuff.  That's a lot of info to digest.

                             

                            What is my budget, I have no clue, as I don't know what these cards cost.  If we are talking a hundred dollars for a card, I could manage that.  If we are talking $800 for a card, I guess I would have to pass.  So if your motherboard does NOT support RAID, then you must buy

                            an add-on card ?  I'm guessing this was like the old days when you had to buy a Scuzzy card to power certain scanners, etc.

                             

                            I have an ASUS motherboard, but I don't know if it supports RAID setups.  I'll have to check the motherboard model.  So if my motherboard supports

                            RAID, then I could in theory use 2 hard drives as my data disc or my scratch disc, and get some perforamance then.

                             

                            When you say "hardware" setup for the RAID 0 setup, instead of an OS setup ( software ) what do you need specifically to do this ?

                            is this where this special RAID controller card comes in ? ( basically this is what you mean by "hardware" solution or way to go ) ?

                             

                            I also have to wonder what sort of load this puts on a computer.  I don't even think I have the space to pop a total of 5 hard drives into my

                            computer cpu box.  Then on top of that, I guess you need to have a power supply powerful enough to power all drives, video cards, etc.

                             

                            Oh boy, this is indeed an interesting topic, it's rather exciting and invigorating to say the least !

                             

                            Dave.

                            • 11. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
                              Igor Valentovitch Level 1

                              Aaaa, that is the most hilarious comparison I have ever heard - RAID and a dishwasher (lol).

                              Now, when my wife asks me to buy her a dishwasher I'll ask her to get me few VelociRaptors in return and

                              will refer her to Harm's article  

                              • 12. Re: Att: Harm - help needed with setting up a RAID 0 configuration.
                                platduck Level 1

                                Hi David,

                                 

                                I would always recommend going with CALDIGIT because I have had very good experiences with both their products and the staff, but there is many RAID card manufactures out there. Another good place to scratch around for info on these topics is the creativecow.net forums.

                                 

                                And yes, very similar to the old SCSI card scenario.

                                 

                                Get that model number of your motherboard and we can have a look at what your options are. My experience with recent model ASUS mobo's and onboard RAID is pretty good though. You should also have more than enough SATA ports on there to run 6 or even 8 HDD.

                                 

                                What I mean by HARDWARE vs SOFTWARE raid. in a hardware raid you will have a dedicated chip (iow a piece of hardware) handling all the overheads for the raid and this is separate from your OS, so if you do a reinstall, your raid stays in tact.

                                 

                                In a software raid your OS needs to handle all the raid overheads and this puts an extra bit of strain on the system and the raid itself does not perform that well. And a reinstall deletes your raid as well.

                                 

                                a HDD does not pull that much power. How big is your PSU?

                                 

                                obviously space inside your case would be an issue, but there is always external enclosures or even products like these http://www.icydock.com/product/mb455spf.html to help you fit everything in.

                                 

                                If budget was no issue, I would recommend you buy this product, run it in RAID 5, and you should sit with a stress free, secure editing experience with a lot of options to expand in the future. http://www.caldigit.com/HDElement/