1 2 Previous Next 43 Replies Latest reply on May 15, 2011 1:35 AM by c.pfaffenbichler

    Pen tool and Paths

    Yelnats1 Level 1

      The aliased paths in Photoshop CS5 have less contrast with the image than in CS4 and below.  With OpenGL turned off, it is even worse, a path will completely blend into a ~128(depends on color profile) gray background.

       

      Can the old path blending method be returned with a patch to CS5?   Pen-pathing is my most frequent use for Photoshop, and CS5 has become worse in this regard. 

       

      Why was any time spent on changing how paths blend?

        • 1. Re: Pen tool and Paths
          Level 7

          Macintosh or Windows?

           

          Some changes had to be made due to changes in Macintosh API (Cocoa doesn't support the same blend modes Carbon had).

          Windows should be the same if your OpenGL preferences are the same - but does differ between GL and non-GL because of limits on the available blending modes.

           

          Yes, considerable time was spent trying to make paths draw well, but we have to live within the limitations of the OS and display technologies available.

          • 2. Re: Pen tool and Paths
            Yelnats1 Level 1

            Paths look the same on OS X and Windows.

            Most contrast to least among aliased paths:  CS4 and earlier > CS5 OGL >  CS5 non-OGL.   CS4 does not have an aliased option with OGL selected.  Anti-aliased paths have similar visibility to CS5 OGL aliased paths.

            • 3. Re: Pen tool and Paths
              Yelnats1 Level 1

              here is an example:  CS4 non-OGL,  CS5 OGL aliased, CS5 OGL anti-aliased, CS5 non-OGL

              4paths.png

              I got the same results when I tried with Windows Vista.

              • 4. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                Reynolds (Mark) Level 4

                 

                Some changes had to be made due to changes in Macintosh API (Cocoa doesn't support the same blend modes Carbon had).

                Windows should be the same if your OpenGL preferences are the same - but does differ between GL and non-GL because of limits on the available blending modes.

                 

                Yes, considerable time was spent trying to make paths draw well, but we have to live within the limitations of the OS and display technologies available.

                This sounds awful. What are they doing at Apple? Certainly some of the decisions they are taking are beginning to look very strange.

                 

                Not had time to trial CS5 yet. Sadly too busy working on a huge job using CS4 on Snow Leopard with all its problems, to risk it.

                • 5. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                  enrique1452 Level 1

                  How does one change these settings on Macintosh OS X Leopard?

                   

                  This is fustrating that no press release or whats new was included in this suprise deficit. The thin lines make the feature almost worthless.

                  This topic is challlenging to find, so I hope we can solve this or Adobe is listening.

                  • 6. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                    Level 7

                    The lines are the same thickness they've always been - that hasn't changed at all.

                    What changed was the blending, and it only fails on middle gray.

                     

                    And there is not much Adobe can do about it -- Adobe has to work with the limitations of the OS and graphics APIs available.

                     

                    Why would there be a press release? The feature has not changed, and OS level changes forced us to use different blending that still works well 99% of the time.

                     

                    We're still trying to find better ways to handle the blending - but OpenGL and Cocoa don't seem to offer anything comparable to the older blending modes.

                    • 7. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                      enrique1452 Level 1

                      Perhaps I am dreaming about any deficit feature being published.

                      However, my question to the forum is:

                      How does one change the OGL preferences on a Macintosh OS 10.5.8 running CS5 photoshop?

                      • 8. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                        enrique1452 Level 1

                        O.K. I figured it out in CS5 Photoshop preference dialog box. This solved the thin line issue. My only concern is, what graphic disadvantages occure with my hardware on my computer to display graphics?

                         

                        I have a Macbook black duo intel 2.2ghz.

                        • 9. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                          Yelnats1 Level 1

                          "forced us to use different blending that still works well 99% of the time"
                          I picked the most extreme example, and there is an easy workaround (temporary adjustment layer), but paths are still worse than before on any color.
                          I don't understand why paths can't look as good as as they do in versions of Photoshop released over 15 years ago.

                          • 10. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                            Yelnats1 Level 1

                            "The lines are the same thickness they've always been - that hasn't changed at all."

                             

                            Could some gamma correction be applied to the anti-aliasing of paths? Lines look very anemic over black.

                            • 11. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                              davidarky Level 1

                              Could Adobe offer the ability to use different size lines for the pen tool that could be set in preferences?

                              At this point my only choice is to use CS3 to draw paths, and then work on the images in CS5, not very acceptable

                              solution.

                              • 12. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                retouchMOJO Level 1

                                Hey David, Adobe has chimed in on this before. I think it was Chris 

                                Cox, and he said it was something outside their control... an Apple OS 

                                issue. I hope it's being fixed though.

                                • 13. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                  PECourtejoie Adobe Community Professional

                                  Versions from 15years ago did have that issue. I believe that we had visible paths for the 50% grey from about CS2 or CS3, not before.

                                  Until the API will allow if, you'll need to use a work around, it is beyond Adobe's control.

                                  • 14. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                    Yelnats1 Level 1

                                    I tested Photoshop 3 for Windows before I made my comment.  It wasn't exactly the same as CS4 software mode, but it was very close.  The differences may have just been because of color management.

                                    • 15. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                      chirp88 Level 1

                                      It's not beyond Adobe's control. They could make Paths behave the same way as they do in Illustrator and have color applied to them when selected. Just like Illustrator Layer colors. Adobe says they are all about making their apps look and behave the same, but they rarely do. They just sort of "resemble" each other in the UI.
                                      The Pen tool should really feel the same in both programs (and InDesign, Flash and Fireworks, too) but it doesn't. It actually feels more exact when drawing in Photoshop (because you can also zoom in way farther in PS than Illustrator), but it is not as visible when items are behind it.

                                      • 16. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                        dianer_macperson Level 1

                                        I second the notion the pen paths should be like illustrators-you should be able to change the color of the path. I can barely see the grey path now in CS5. It should at least be black.

                                        • 17. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                          dianer_macperson Level 1

                                          pen.jpg

                                          (CS5 on left, CS3 on right).

                                          Here's the difference between the

                                          CS3 and CS5 pen path visibility. I like

                                          the CS3's better.

                                          Is there a way to change this in CS5?

                                          • 18. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                            retouchMOJO Level 1

                                            This is a pretty well documented topic. Something about a change in Apple's display code I think?

                                            Adobe knows but I think it's out of their control.

                                            • 19. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                              chirp88 Level 1

                                              I don't see how it can be out of Adobe's control, when it is only CS5 that looks that way. And it's not just on snow leopard.

                                              • 20. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                retouchMOJO Level 1

                                                Sorry, I can't remember the details, But it's been discussed here a lot. Maybe Chris will chime in with info. Or try some keyword searches in this forum.

                                                • 21. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                  c.pfaffenbichler Level 9
                                                  I don't see how it can be out of Adobe's control

                                                  Have you not read post 1?

                                                   

                                                  Photoshop CS5 is written in Cocoa.

                                                  So if Macintosh did not implement functionality that was available in Carbon in Cocoa Adobe would seem to have limited options.

                                                  • 22. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                    always leaning Level 1

                                                    I have been using a pretty simple workaround. Add a layer to the top of the layer your going to draw a path and fill it with a bright yellow, then make the opacity 60%. The path shows up nicely. Hope this helps until there is a fix.

                                                    • 23. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                      mthomasphoto37 Level 1

                                                      is this honestly still not dealt with? i have to clip grey watches on a regular basis for work, and the pen tool absolutely does not work on a mac for this.. adobe, get it together and figure out a way to allow the huge percentage of mac users to do something as basic as clipping.  i'm tired of hearing "it's out of our control".  mac is a huge percentage of your business, my company paid thousands for licensing for cs5.  make it work!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! you're wasting countless hours of my time!!!!!!!!!!

                                                      • 24. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                        mthomasphoto37 Level 1

                                                        and while you're at it, fix the damn issue with the hand tool not working if i have google chrome open.  we spend entirely too much money on your products for simple issues like this to slow us down as much as they do.

                                                        • 25. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                          Level 7

                                                          is this honestly still not dealt with?

                                                          No, Apple has not added any new blend modes, nor has OpenGL (though, we're still investigating using shaders to improve the situation).

                                                           

                                                          The blend modes that we used to use to get contrast in Carbon are not available in Cocoa or OpenGL.

                                                           

                                                          Sorry, but we can only use the APIs available on the OS.

                                                          If you'd like more flexible and useful APIs, please ask Apple (we already have).

                                                          • 26. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                            Level 7

                                                            and while you're at it, fix the damn issue with the hand tool not working if i have google chrome open.

                                                            And there is nothing Adobe can do about bugs in a third party application like Chrome.

                                                             

                                                            We're doing what we can to resolve such conflicts, but sometimes we have to wait for the third party to fix their bugs or add the needed functionality.

                                                            • 27. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                              mthomasphoto37 Level 1

                                                              ok, so from an outsiders point of view it just seems as if you're pushing the blame onto everyone else on all these issues.  true, false, i have no clue.. but that's how it sounds to me, the consumer.  all of the issues that have been raised, have been the fault of others. 

                                                              the issue with chrome doesn't effect chrome, it effects photoshop.  a good percentage of the time when i have chrome open, spacebar doesn't shorcut to the hand tool.  this is a magor issue with me, as i use chrome, and pretty much every time i'm in photoshop i'm switching between the hand tool and other tools.  fault of chrome? possibly.  issue with photoshop? definitely.

                                                              the issue with the pen tool is also something that causes me stress on a daily basis.  i habitually clip grey watches, and i lose my line constantly.  you'd think you'd find a way to be completely compatible with apple, which has to be a large percentage of your client base. again, your fault? apple's fault? who knows, but i pay the price.

                                                              i'm sure you guys are completely aware of all these issues, but the fact remains that 2 of the most used tools of mine, absolutely dont work like they should. no intention of actually accomplishing anything with this rant, but it's definitely frustrating that i'm now forced to switch back and forth between cs4 and cs5.

                                                              • 28. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                c.pfaffenbichler Level 9
                                                                this is a magor issue with me, as i use chrome, and pretty much every time i'm in photoshop i'm switching between the hand tool and other tools.  fault of chrome? possibly.  issue with photoshop? definitely.

                                                                If you were to buy defective tires would you expect your car’s manufacturer to do something about those, too?

                                                                 

                                                                you'd think you'd find a way to be completely compatible with apple, which has to be a large percentage of your client base.

                                                                Photoshop is not incompatible with Macintosh, Macintosh has removed previously available functionality.

                                                                 

                                                                Have you really found workarounds like Yelnats1’s temporary adjustment layer or simply hiding one Channel insufficient or more inconvenient than switching to Photoshop CS4?

                                                                • 29. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                  dianer_macperson Level 1

                                                                  If you turn off "open GL" in CS5  preferences the pen tool functions just like CS4. That's what I did for now. I also do a lot of masking with the pen tool so this works fine. Hope this helps you also.

                                                                  (you may have to relaunch photoshop for it to take effect).

                                                                   

                                                                  Preferences>performance>gpusettings>uncheck "enable openGl drawing.

                                                                   

                                                                  Sent from my iPhone

                                                                  • 30. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                    mthomasphoto37 Level 1

                                                                    c.pfaffenbichler wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    this is a magor issue with me, as i use chrome, and pretty much every time i'm in photoshop i'm switching between the hand tool and other tools.  fault of chrome? possibly.  issue with photoshop? definitely.

                                                                    If you were to buy defective tires would you expect your car’s manufacturer to do something about those, too?

                                                                     

                                                                    you'd think you'd find a way to be completely compatible with apple, which has to be a large percentage of your client base.

                                                                    Photoshop is not incompatible with Macintosh, Macintosh has removed previously available functionality.

                                                                     

                                                                    Have you really found workarounds like Yelnats1’s temporary adjustment layer or simply hiding one Channel insufficient or more inconvenient than switching to Photoshop CS4?

                                                                    that makes absolutely no sense.. i bought photoshop, it's not working as it should.  cars, tires? that's not the most effective analogy.  a product was purchased, it doesn't operate as it should. i'm going to the company whos product isnt operating..

                                                                     

                                                                    i find the entire fact that i have to deal with some kind of workaround completely inconvenient.  i had a streamlined workflow, it has to now be altered because apple and adobe can't play nice.  i know both sides are to blame, but in the end i'm the one who gets screwed.

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                    thank you dianer, i'll give it a try when i get in to the studio later today.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                      jumpyone Level 1

                                                                      I would not hold your breath for Adobe to fix any of their software before releasing a new version that we'll have to pay for. I am still waiting for them to release a BUG FIX for Illustrator CS3 so that when I convert a stroke to a path it creates usable points and not a bunch of random annoying ones that I have to go and delete and fix by hand. Given that the issue was fixed in CS4 all they need to do is copy the corrected code out and paste it into CS3 and release an update. But, no, they want people to buy their newest stuff.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                        dianer_macperson Level 1

                                                                        You may have to quit and relaunch photoshop for it to work. But I actually like it better Off all the time anyway.

                                                                         

                                                                        I wish they would make CS5 pen functionality like illustrators, where you can change the size and the color. It would also be nice to link path layers together to move all at once, or multiple select PATH layers and view/move/copy/align. etc...etc.

                                                                        (you know, just like Illustrators).

                                                                        If they could just merge illustrator and photoshop...sigh..That would be the answer ..but.. It probably wouldn't fit on my terabyte hard drive though...   : )

                                                                        • 33. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                          Level 7

                                                                          all of the issues that have been raised, have been the fault of others.

                                                                          We have discussed many issues in this forum that were the fault of Adobe, and we've then taken steps to fix them.

                                                                          But when we've fixed most or all of our issues, what is left?

                                                                           

                                                                          Some things are caused by third parties, and we can't always work around them. That's a fact of life.

                                                                          We spend a lot of time working around third party problems, but, again, not all of them are avoidable.

                                                                           

                                                                          fault of chrome? possibly.  issue with photoshop? definitely.

                                                                          Almost certainly a fault of Chrome or something related to Chrome (a plugin, JDownloader again, etc.)  They are consuming or modifying the event before Photoshop ever sees the event.  Photoshop has little chance to ever detect the correct event.  How could we know ahead of time that some applications are going to mess up OS events and correct that?  And now that we know about Chrome, how much effort should we spend to work around a simple bug in another application?  (the available workaround would be complex, and likely to break with new OS releases)

                                                                           

                                                                          you'd think you'd find a way to be completely compatible with apple

                                                                          We are compatible, within the limits of the APIs (and their bugs) that Apple provides.

                                                                          But the Cocoa API, and the OpenGL API have no blend modes that do what we used to do with the Carbon API.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                            jumpyone Level 1

                                                                            Chris, this would be a simple thing to implement if Adobe would just give us the option to choose the color we want the pen stroke to be, much like we can choose the color for the quick mask. Problem solved.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                              Level 7

                                                                              that makes absolutely no sense.. i bought photoshop, it's not working as it should.  cars, tires? that's not the most effective analogy.  a product was purchased, it doesn't operate as it should. i'm going to the company whos product isnt operating..

                                                                              No, the product is working as it should.

                                                                              Photoshop has to work within the limits of the OS and it's APIs.

                                                                               

                                                                              Apple forced applications to move to the Cocoa APIs for 64 bit addressing, and the Cocoa APIs do not have the same blend modes that used to be available under the Carbon APIs (ditto OpenGL). We've already added a lot of tricks to keep cursors and shapes visible under Cocoa and OpenGL -- but we don't have solutions to everything that's missing.

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              Do you complain to your car maker about the quality of your roads?  They might work on the stiffness of the shocks, but they can't really be expected to go out and fix all the roads.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                                Level 7

                                                                                Problem solved.

                                                                                "Go to moon, pick up rock, how hard can that be?"

                                                                                • 37. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                                  jumpyone Level 1

                                                                                  Chris Cox wrote:

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Problem solved.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  "Go to moon, pick up rock, how hard can that be?"

                                                                                  Are you telling me Adobe's awesome programmers couldn't do something as easy as this when they have been able to implement 3D technology into a 2D program? It is adding color to a freakin' line. LOL

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                                    mtp37 Level 1

                                                                                    Chris Cox wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

                                                                                    that makes absolutely no sense.. i bought photoshop, it's not working as it should.  cars, tires? that's not the most effective analogy.  a product was purchased, it doesn't operate as it should. i'm going to the company whos product isnt operating..

                                                                                     

                                                                                    No, the product is working as it should.

                                                                                    Photoshop has to work within the limits of the OS and it's APIs.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Apple forced applications to move to the Cocoa APIs for 64 bit addressing, and the Cocoa APIs do not have the same blend modes that used to be available under the Carbon APIs (ditto OpenGL). We've already added a lot of tricks to keep cursors and shapes visible under Cocoa and OpenGL -- but we don't have solutions to everything that's missing.

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Do you complain to your car maker about the quality of your roads?  They might work on the stiffness of the shocks, but they can't really be expected to go out and fix all the roads.

                                                                                    enough with the horrible car analogies.  if i bought a product that was purported to integrate with the OS myself, and a huuuuuuuge percentage of other creative individuals use, i'd expect it to work as promised.  period.  end of story.  if i have a website up that doesn't work with all browsers, do you think i'm going to blame the browser? no, i'm going to fix it so it works across the board so my customers get the full experience.  an inconvenience to me, but much less than the inconvenience to my paying customers of a site that doesn't work. 

                                                                                    the only thing i've taken from this is the software my company spent thousands of dollars to purchase licenses for, doesn't work as well as older versions for two of the most used tools in my toolbox.  and you, the representative of said company are horrible at customer service.  try a little "we're sorry, it's an issue we're aware of and doing our best to fix" instead of "nope, we're perfect, everyone else is to blame".  works wonders on placating an upset customer!

                                                                                     

                                                                                    please, save the next batch of analogies pushing the blame onto roads or tires or whatever other other part of the process other than you is to blame.. i've decided this isn't the forum for me to get usable answers.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Pen tool and Paths
                                                                                      retouchMOJO Level 1

                                                                                      MTP, if while designing wheels for let's say, a car for example, the car manufacturer changed the number of lugs on their new vehicles, my wheels would not fit.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Ok, that smart alec remark out if the way... I don't think you realize how dependent upon, and therefore limited by the OS API, applications are. We are all dissapointed by how this has affected paths in CS5, but it is outside Adobe's control. No amount of whining here is going to make this Adobe's problem to fix. Petition Apple regarding the OS by going to:

                                                                                       

                                                                                      http://apple.com/feedback/macosx.html

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