18 Replies Latest reply on Jun 13, 2010 3:45 PM by Tai Lao

    CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader

    Bill Eger Level 1

      16. May 13, 2010 9:24 PM 

      If I sent you off on this search  you would be back here in a week crying in despair.

       

      It's the only way I find to get the CS5 Photo Downloader into your system with CS5 Design Premium. I have logged something like four hours on the phone with Adobe "Tech Support" who know nothing of this, apparently, so send their dear customers on wild goose chases and unnecessary suggestions to uninstall of CS4, reinstall of CS5 and then a new and unrecommended install of CS4. Let it go.

       

      You need Photo Downloader if you want a clean way to get raw images:

       

      1.) converted from your camera's raw format [Mine is Nikon's NEF]

       

      2.) placed in a location with a new name for that folder and files which can include your choice of date, subject, etc. You need it.

       

      3.) another reason to be very doubtful when Adobe tells you it's your fault when its products don't install as they should!

       

      If you had this running in CS4 the install code should have found that in the old setup and moved it into CS5. PERIOD.

       

      Heads should roll because Adobe has invested a lot of time and money to get folks to switch to the inter-code .dng format! That is a very good thing for Adobe to be doing and it's being sabotaged from within by the failure to install it in EACH setup of CS5. Otherwise, I guess you must save individual image files or all chosen files in Bridge. Makes no sense and hinders your workflow for image distribution.

       

      NOW, here's that magic page:

       

      http://help.adobe.com/en_US/creativesuite/cs/using/WSEC378273-AF69-4a1e-9CD8-108 420C556EDa.html

       

      Tell your friends and any Adobe tech support people you run into.

       

      Bill Eger   808-969-1234

        • 1. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
          SG... Adobe Employee

          Hi Bill,

           

          The Adobe Photo Downloader application is bundled with Bridge CS5 for any point product or Suite SKU that includes it. You can access it from the icon highlighted below, or from File> Get Photos from Camera...

           

          Photo Downloader icon.png

           

          I think the problem you may have hit upon is that if you had Bridge CS4 preferences set to auto-launch the Adobe Photo Downloader (APD) on camera/card connection, then run with Bridge CS5 you aren't getting the expected auto-launch behavior. I need to check if this preference is migrated between version. I also see that it's possible to see Bridge CS4 in the APD title, when it should read Bridge CS5 (even though the APD versions are the same for each).

           

          As for the DNG conversion, there are actually a few ways to convert files to DNG; APD is not the sole path to batch converting a camera manufacturer's format to DNG, with rename and metadata additions, using Adobe software. I'll see if I can find some pointers to the different methods. I think the ability to recognize (mount) camera via USB interface on Mac, create subfolders option and dubious 'Delete Originals' option might be it's distinguishing features.

           

          Regards,

          steve

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
            Bill Eger Level 1

            Steve,

             

            Thank you for your efforts. Yes, I know you can use other than Photo Downloader (APD) o convert files. But let me suggest that it is far and away the most professional of the systems in terms of organization of target folders. You also get the thumbnails and, as I recall, that isn't the case with the less powerful system. If you compare the two, APD is far and away the better tool for placing images in as wide a selection of new or existing folders. You can check which images to download to any of several folders you might name in successive downloads.

             

            My point was that APD is a very well-designed lure for professional photographers to go to DNG. And even there, it is possible to uncheck the convert to DNG choice.  Keep in mind that your typical camera memory card could have several hundred images on it after a shoot. That was the type of situation that APD was well-designed to handle and manage. And, again, it is essential to Adobe and all of us in digital photography that DNG format succeed.

             

            Since the Raw File matter is before us -- and this might not be the correct place to explore it -- it seems there is a huge change in the ability of Photoshop CS5 to ALTER DNG FILES. It has always been the case -- or widely said -- that you can't do that. That no matter what you think you are doing with an edit and save a raw file of any variety you were not able to actually change the pixels in that file. From what I've seen and tested, you can do it with DNG files. I would love to hear from a Photoshop expert to verify this. When I did all the same moves on a .NEF file fresh from my Nikon, you could make the same edits to the file but it was not possible to save it as a NEF image. On the other hand, when you save the DNG file there is the choice of .jpg, .psd, .tif, .pfd, etc., and it now has  "Photoshop RAW" which comes up as .dng.

             

            Hmmm.

             

            It's way past time that Adobe put out some literature with its changes detailing the kinds of matters we are discussing. I've already had encounters with persons far wiser than I am -- writing reviews   -- about that dng change issue and they are amazed to find it.

             

            Maybe in the writing of such a document it would have been discovered that the install mechanism was faulty.

            • 3. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
              Greg Barnett Level 2

              >It's way past time that Adobe put out some literature with its  changes detailing the kinds of matters we are discussing. I've already  had encounters with persons far wiser than I am -- writing reviews   --  about that dng change issue and they are amazed to find it.<

               

              What exaclty are these changes you are refering to? It is not at all clear what you are talking about.

               

              There is a published DNG specification at: http://www.adobe.com/products/dng/

              • 4. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                Bill Eger Level 1

                Greg,

                 

                My apologies for not seeing your post until now.

                 

                In dealing with several tech support folks, it seemed most did not know the significance of the Adobe produced dng file type.

                 

                You probably do but, if not, there is a growing number of file formats as the manufacturers of digital equipment multiplies. There were some attempts to encourage a universal adoption of one file type in each manufacturer's equipment but that was not well received. Bottom line, Adobe made the source code and anything else needed available to all manufacturers, as I understand it.

                 

                Then Adobe placed .dng as their raw file format and placed it in the Photo Downloader available to help advanced users -- or beginners, for that matter -- to simplify getting any files from their cameras, giving the files a new name if desired and converting them to .dng format. I think that works with all raw formats. Adobe also produced Adobe Photo Raw as an increasingly powerful initial software between raw and Photoshop. That allows batch processing and a number of other very sophisticated changes possible before Photoshop.

                 

                When I installed CS5 it was a mystery to me -- the first of many! -- that when I attached my Nikon to my Mac, no Photo Downloader appeared. That was my first clue that Adobe had failed to tell their installer files to transfer settings in CS4 files to the CS5 folders. I looked a long time before finding a way to do that using the link published.

                 

                What you might be referring to is another change that is definitely not documented anywhere I've found. When you do your work in photoshop whether in a .psd or .dng or .jpg file and go to save it CS5 gives you the opportunity to 'save as' Photoshop raw. When you select that it produces a .dng file. If you started with a dng file and saved it after work with the same filename, YOU HAVE CHANGED THE RAW FILE! 

                 

                That's the change that should be widely discussed because every advanced user I know believes that the raw data CAN'T be changed. They will teach you that, for example, in the current and very fine Lynda.Com lessons on CS5. But it is no longer the case. Now there have been several Adobe tech support folks who say it has always been like that but you and I know -- or should know -- better.

                 

                There has been nothing to come to my attention that this has resonated sufficiently to warn CS5 users of this relatively radical change.

                • 5. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                  Level 4

                  Hawaii Bill wrote:

                   

                  …What you might be referring to is another change that is definitely not documented anywhere I've found. When you do your work in photoshop whether in a .psd or .dng or .jpg file and go to save it CS5 gives you the opportunity to 'save as' Photoshop raw. When you select that it produces a .dng file. If you started with a dng file and saved it after work with the same filename, YOU HAVE CHANGED THE RAW FILE!

                   

                  Whoa!  Stop right there!  

                   

                  You are under a massive misconception, Bill.

                   

                  The "Photoshop Raw" file format with which you are presented in the Save As dialog box within Photoshop has nothing, absolutely nothing to do with a raw file in the sense of camera raw or DNG raw.  You should not remotely, ever use it unless you fully understand why it's there.

                   

                  SavingAs Psraw in CS4.jpg

                   

                  Please read on the Photoshop Raw file format in the Help files for your version of Photoshop—and elsewhere—but in the meantime just stay far away from it.

                   

                  For instance:

                   

                  http://help.adobe.com/en_US/Photoshop/11.0/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-773ea.html

                   

                   

                  QUOTE:

                   

                  The Photoshop Raw format is a flexible file format for transferring images between applications and computer platforms. This format supports CMYK, RGB, and grayscale images with alpha channels, and multichannel and Lab images without alpha channels. Documents saved in the Photoshop Raw format can be of any pixel or file size, but they cannot contain layers.

                   

                  The Photoshop Raw format consists of a stream of bytes describing the color information in the image. Each pixel is described in binary format, with 0 representing black and 255 white (for images with 16‑bit channels, the white value is 65535). Photoshop designates the number of channels needed to describe the image, plus any additional channels in the image. You can specify the file extension (Windows), file type (Mac OS), file creator (Mac OS), and header information.

                  In Mac OS, the file type is generally a four-character ID that identifies the file—for example, TEXT identifies the file as an ASCII text file. The file creator is also generally a four-character ID. Most Mac OS applications have a unique file creator ID that is registered with the Apple Computer Developer Services group.

                   

                   

                  You can save the image in an interleaved or non-interleaved format. If you choose interleaved, the color values (red, green, and blue, for example) are stored sequentially. Your choice depends on requirements of the application that will open the file.

                   

                  NoteA Photoshop Raw image is not in the same file format as a camera raw image file from a digital camera. A camera raw image file is in a camera-specific proprietary format that is essentially a “digital negative,” with no filtering, white balance adjustments, or other in-camera processing.

                   

                   

                   

                  === END QUOTE = = =

                   

                  If you have already  saved one or more files this way, just try opening it/them.  Just make sure there are no minors around you to hear you when you do. 

                   

                   

                  Wo Tai Lao Le

                  我太老了

                  • 6. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                    Level 4

                    Incidentally, the Photoshop Raw file format has been there for many versions of Photoshop.  It's not a new "change"; it's not a change at all.

                     

                     

                    Wo Tai Lao Le

                    我太老了

                    • 7. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                      Bill Eger Level 1

                      我太老了

                       

                      It could be that I an neither incorrect nor confused. It could also be that you are incorrect if you don't know about XMP files and I am also confused by what I do know. I re-read your sends and didn't see xmp mentioned and without that you shouldn't interrupt.

                       

                      What I have been urgently suggesting to more than one Adobe Tech Support specialist is that MOST of us dabbling with raw images have the impression that they can't be changed. Not true. And most of those think that Adobe's DNG format is fully in that category. What I wrote in my cowboy naivete is pretty much what you wrote to me, that you better think about this and study it very carefully because Adobe's Photo Raw software will change a NEF file from Nikon, for example, to a DNG format and it may or may not have all the characteristics YOU, ME and THEY expect of it.

                       

                      The matters that I've addressed are a surprise to a lot of people who thought a "raw" image can't be permanently changed. Sure, you can dink around with it and make a blue sky into a great sunset but as you affirm and I had already learned from experiments you can't go back to the original image. I've never told anyone they could, by the way. What I either wrote or intended to write is that a large number of fine photographers of many ages -- and I'm one -- have been and are still being told that a dng file is never permanently changed. I don't have sufficient brains nor library to determine if that is true of NEF or the several other raw formats used by Canon and others.

                       

                      If you doubt what I'm writing here, just check what I said carefully and then look for something -- including the welcome quotes you sent to me -- that says otherwise clearly. I read your quotes and am dazzled by the new confusion they injected.

                       

                      About XMP

                       

                      Raw files that are processed in Photoshop or, I suppose, elsewhere take on some baggage, a set of notes about what changes were made when the image was edited that are kept as separate XMP format. DNG is unique in its way of accessing XMP data. XMP is stored within the .dng files BUT the XMP data for all other raw formats is placed in a separate file. The fundamental result of this difference is that you can access the XMP data within a .dng file when it has been removed from the computer where the changes were made. If you transport a .nef Nikon file, on the other hand, and hope to do some more work on it in your office, you'll soon discover that the changes -- or the record of them in those XMP files -- were left at home.

                       

                      There may be better places to look but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_Negative_(file_format) will at least convince you that I am not making this all up just to ruffle some feathers. Not at all. XMP, by the way, is an old Adobe-owned file type that you need to study before you jump all over us stupid cowboys.

                       

                      The deeper you dig the more you will wonder why the methods in ALL raw files have been generally kept from us guys who use them and, even worse, those who work so hard to help us understand the subject in the excellent Lynda.Com or Adobe's own training videos or, I guess, the videos prepared by the National Association of Photoshop Professionals.

                       

                      Let me know what you think.

                      • 8. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                        Level 4

                        Hawaii Bill wrote:

                         

                        It could be that I an neither incorrect nor confused. It could also be that you are incorrect if you don't know about XMP files

                         

                         

                        Dear Mr. Eger,

                         

                        What hubris!  For you to presume to teach me about XMP files in the face of your utter lack of understanding of all the concepts you attempt to discuss in your long post makes me realize what my errors were:

                         

                        MISTAKE #1 — was to take you at your word when you professed to be "generally an extraordinarily polite … gentleman".  Out of basic human decency one does not react with absurdly patronizing and condescending remarks to an individual who points out your misconceptions and who attempts to save you (and others) from the consequences of not understanding that the Photoshop Raw file format has absolutely nothing to do with camera raw files.  Nevertheless, I'm here telling you that said Photoshop Raw file format has absolutely nothing to do with XMP files either.

                         

                        MISTAKE #2 — was to think that you could have benefited from further reading on the subject.

                         

                         

                        Hawaii Bill wrote:

                         

                        I re-read your sends and didn't see xmp mentioned and without that you shouldn't interrupt.

                         

                         

                        XMP files were not mentioned in my posts because they are totally irrelevant in the context of my messages.  Incidentally, these are public posts on a web forum, not "sends"—whatever you may mean by that term (perhaps the archaic noun "scend" as the purge or surge created by a wave, in a vain attempt to disqualify my clarifications?).  In case you did mean "sends" as a synonym for "sent emails", the vast majority of users in these forums, including me, do not access them through emails but directly through the web interface at http://forums.adobe.com.

                         

                         

                        Hawaii Bill wrote:

                         

                         

                        What I have been urgently suggesting to more than one Adobe Tech Support specialist is that MOST of us dabbling with raw images have the impression that they can't be changed.

                         

                         

                        That is entirely another misconception of yours, sir.  No one anywhere, at Adobe or otherwise, has ever claimed that that raw images or raw files are untouchable.  That is sheer nonsense.  What Adobe tells us is that Adobe Software—specifically the DNG Converter, Photoshop and Adobe Camera Raw—treats such files as Read-Only.  Of course other software, starting with the Macintosh Finder or the Explorer in Windows, can alter such files to the point of completely deleting them altogether. What other third-party raw converters do to the original raw files is also entirely outside of Adobe's bailiwick.

                         

                        The Adobe DNG Converter does not retain certain proprietary data that only the camera manufacturer's software can interpret anyway.  A DNG file generated natively by one of my cameras, in camera, will NOT BE IDENTICAL to a DNG file converted from a RAW file from that very same camera body even when both photographic shots are indeed identical.  That's because the DNG Converter did NOT retain said proprietary data.  HOWEVER, the original camera raw image from which the DNG Converter generated the DNG file remains unchanged, untouched, unaltered.  Nothing changed there.

                         

                        For your edification, Chris Cox is not "an Adobe Tech Support specialist".  He does not work in Tech or Customer Support at all.  He is one of the top Adobe Photoshop engineers, the actual author of much of the application's math and code, and he is also responsible for signing off on much of the rest of the code generated by other Adobe Photoshop engineers.  He contributes to the forums strictly on a volunteer, unpaid basis—on his own time and dime—whenever his duties permit.  He is under no obligation to participate in any forum discussion or to reply to any question.  We are most fortunate to have him contributing here.

                         

                        Also very active in the ACR forum are Thomas Knoll, creator of both Photoshop and Camera Raw, and Eric Chan, a top engineer in the Adobe Camera Raw team.  They are also forum volunteers, not tech or customer support reps.

                         

                         

                        Hawaii Bill wrote:

                         

                        … And most of those think that Adobe's DNG format is fully in that category. What I wrote in my cowboy naivete is pretty much what you wrote to me, that you better think about this and study it very carefully because Adobe's Photo Raw software will change a NEF file from Nikon, for example, to a DNG format and it may or may not have all the characteristics YOU, ME and THEY expect of it.

                         

                        You again miss the point:  the original raw file remained untouched.  YES, you can go back to it any time, UNLESS you delete it yourself.

                         

                         

                        Hawaii Bill wrote:

                         

                        …About XMP…

                         

                        There you go again!  Sidecar XMP files have absolutely nothing to do with the issue I was pointing out to you:  An "Adobe Photoshop Raw" file has nothing to do with camera raw files or DNG files.  It even has nothing to do with photography.  It's a file format that predates digital cameras; it has been there for a very, very long time.  XMP files are not germane to "Adobe Photoshop Raw" files.

                         

                        That's what I was trying to impress upon you:  that you risk all kinds of unimaginable grief if you choose that file format for saving your image files.  Just STAY AWAY from the "Adobe Photoshop Raw" file format.  I can guarantee that you will never, ever have a need for such a format.

                         

                        My "interruption" as you choose to characterize it was prompted exclusively by your complete misunderstanding of what the "Adobe Photoshop Raw" file format is, and that was the only point I wished to clarify.  All these talk about XMP files is a red herring of yours.

                         

                         

                        Hawaii Bill wrote:

                         

                        …will at least convince you that I am not making this all up just to ruffle some feathers. Not at all…

                         

                        No, it never occurred to me that you'd be "making stuff up".  Rather, it is amply evident to me that you simply have no clue as to what you are talking about.  I mean no offense whatsoever.

                         

                        Hawaii Bill wrote:

                         

                        Let me know what you think.

                         

                        No, again basic human decency dictates that I keep any further thoughts to myself.  I have no desire to insult you.  I just made the clarifications in this particular post for the benefit of future readers of this thread.

                         

                        Sincerely,

                         

                         

                         

                        Wo Tai Lao Le

                        我太老了

                         

                        — Message was edited by original poster, Tai Lao, some seven hours later to correct the formatting of a single character and replace one instance of the word software with file.

                        • 9. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                          Level 4

                          In a nutshell:

                           

                          You just don't understand the difference between a raw file recorded by a camera and a Photoshop Raw file that has nothing to do with ACR or DNG.

                           

                           

                          SavingAs Psraw in CS4.jpg

                          This Photoshop Raw file format is nothing like a raw file from a digital camera.

                           

                          That's what I wrote in post #5 of this thread.

                           

                           

                           

                          Wo Tai Lao Le

                          我太老了

                          • 10. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                            Bill Eger Level 1

                            我太老了

                             

                            One of these days you will understand this issue but that day is not upon us.

                             

                            Wisdom only enters an open mind. To suggest that xmp has nothing to do with camera raw or photo raw, etc., is strange to read.

                            • 11. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                              Level 4

                              Hawaii Bill wrote:

                               

                              …To suggest that xmp has nothing to do with camera raw or photo raw, etc., is strange to read.

                               

                              Now you are deliberately distorting the issue—and you are still DEAD WRONG.

                               

                              I never suggested XMP had nothing to do "with camera raw or photo raw",  that is blatant nonsense.

                               

                              You still don't understand THE basic point:

                               

                              The issue here is the "Photoshop Raw" file format with which you are presented in the Save As dialog box.  That Photosho Raw is not camera RAW, it has nothing at all to do with "raw" in the sense of Camera Raw or DNG, or any third party converter.

                               

                              You need to get your head around that.  Stop repeating your utter nonsense.

                               

                               

                              Wo Tai Lao Le

                              我太老了

                              • 12. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                                Bill Eger Level 1

                                我太老了

                                 

                                You are babbling. Find some other person to charm with infinite absurdity. I've no room for it here.

                                • 13. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                                  Level 4

                                  OK, Mr. Master Babbler,

                                   

                                  You are asking for this, as you were warned privately:

                                   

                                  I have no idea why you refuse to understand that "Photoshop Raw" is a very old file format that predates digital photography and has nothing in common with digital camera raw.
                                   
                                  If you persist on repeating your utter nonsense and resorting to condescension in an attempt to save face, I'll just expose you as a stubborn misguided fool.
                                   
                                  You, sir, do not have an open mind but you do have a hole in your head.  There's a big difference.

                                   
                                  For the last time:  XMP has nothing to do with Photoshop Raw, as opposed to
                                  camera raw or DNG. Photoshop Raw is just a graphic file format (it can be—and often is—just an illustration or just formatted text) devoid of a conventional wrapper like PSD, TIFF or JPEG.  It does not remotely contain raw data.
                                   
                                  It was a format needed since the earliest days of Photoshop in order to transport graphic files between platforms like MS-DOS and Apple, or devices like Linotype line-casting machines in print shops
                                  .
                                   
                                  Stop and use your brain to think, please.

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  Wo Tai Lao Le

                                  我太老了

                                  • 14. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                                    Level 4

                                    You should be ashamed of wasting forum bandwidth and the time of forum contributors, and of spreading your misinformation and/or lack of information.

                                     

                                    A little less arrogance would further your learning.

                                    • 15. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                                      Bill Eger Level 1

                                      Perhaps it would help if you have an account with Lynda.Com.

                                       

                                      Go to Chris Orwig's excellent presentation; Photoshop CS5 for Photographers: Camera Raw 6

                                       

                                      He will explain the differences and -- perhaps more important -- the similarities between the various raw formats.

                                       

                                      Then you can yell at him.

                                      • 16. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                                        Level 4

                                        Here's a screen shot I created which will help others—if not the incurable and hopeless Bill Eger—understand the concept.

                                         

                                         

                                        • I created a fresh, new Photoshop document that contains only a single box of formatted text.
                                        • I then invoked the Save command from the File menu.
                                        • One of the format choices offered in the corresponding dialog box was indeed Photoshop Raw.
                                        • The file was then created and Photoshop assigned it the ".raw" extension.

                                         

                                         

                                        Save_text_as_PsRaw.jpg

                                         

                                        This resulted in a Photoshop Raw file being created.  This file cannot be opened in ACR.  It can be opened in Photoshop itself, presenting the user with two succeeding dialog boxes.  This Photoshop Raw file has nothing to do with Camera Raw or DNG obviously, it contains only formatted b&w text.  It has also nothing to do with XMP, nor can an XMP file be associated with it.

                                         

                                        Is that clear now, everybody?

                                         

                                        The file is available by email upon request.

                                         

                                         

                                        Wo Tai Lao Le

                                        我太老了

                                        • 17. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                                          Level 4

                                          Hawaii Bill wrote:

                                           

                                          Perhaps it would help if you have an account with Lynda.Com.

                                           

                                          Go to Chris Orwig's excellent presentation…

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                          You are a most presumptuous, vain and clueless individual, Mr. Eger.

                                           

                                          And you know a lot less than you allow yourself to think you do.  Hubris in the extreme.

                                           

                                          Must be that awful Hawaiian food. 

                                           

                                          Go ahead, keep embarrassing yourself in public.  I tried to keep you from doing that.

                                           

                                          Spelling error was edited by: Tai Lao

                                          • 18. Re: CS5 Design Premium fails to install urgent Photo Downloader
                                            Level 4

                                            Screen shot from the CS5 Help files at:

                                            http://help.adobe.com/en_US/photoshop/cs/using/WSfd1234e1c4b69f30ea53e41001031ab64-773ea.h tml

                                             

                                            CS5_Help_screenshot.jpg

                                            Command-Click (Macintosh) this thumbnail for full-size image