16 Replies Latest reply on May 26, 2010 10:41 AM by mattbatt

    CS5 raw camera highlight bug

    mattbatt

      CS5

      Camera RAW

      5dmkII, CR2

       

      Just loaded CS5 and continued editing a batch of raw photos from where I left off in CS4, and this new issue came up. Whenever I use the exposure slider to underexpose and the recover slider, the recovered data comes in as greyscale alongside the colored image.

       

      It looks utterly horrible.

       

      http://formstudios.net/special/stuff/face.jpg

       

      Help?

       

      Matt

        • 1. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
          mattbatt Level 1

          tried 6.1 beta and the same issue occurs

          • 2. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
            dorin_nicolaescu Level 5

            Are you sure it wouldn't have happened with CS5/ACR5? If you provide the raw file, I can check it - still have ACR 5.

             

            Looks like the red channel is totally blown and ACR has no way to recover the color information (thus, you only get gray).

            • 3. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
              Noel Carboni Level 7

              I just posted a thread specifically on this subject as well, not knowing this was here.

               

              However, as far as I can see this issue goes all the way back to when negative exposure compensation was enhanced to try to recover partial overexposure.

               

              Other converters do it differently, and better IMO.  Quite often even the in-camera JPEGs have better color in these areas.  I'd love to see an option for an alternate highlight recovery method.

               

              -Noel

              • 4. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                mattbatt Level 1

                ok, I have never had this happen before. It is a pretty bad image, just underexpose it a bit and use recovery, see what happens.

                 

                Let me know when you have it, I don't want my RAW file up on the forum too long. Thanks.

                 

                download

                • 5. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                  mattbatt Level 1

                  ok, now I know for a fact something is majorly wrong: I went to my batch of CR2 images edited in CS4's camera RAW, opened them with the 2003 setting, and sure enough, that grey haloing on recovered highlights is now appearing. It did not occur in CS4

                  • 6. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                    mattbatt Level 1

                    found a computer with CS4, you can see some gray in there too:

                     

                    Either way, for faces, the recovery tool seems usless. I have mainly used it for windows and skies.

                     

                    http://formstudios.net/special/stuff/gary_compare.jpg

                    • 7. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                      Unfortunately (see some of the responses in my "Pet Peeve" thread) it's been around a long while.

                       

                      Yes, it looks horrible, and so far people are claiming it can't be done any better.  I'm having trouble buying that.  Have you got any conversions of the same images (i.e., those showing this issue) done with other converters that do better with the data as it transitions to overexposure?

                       

                      -Noel

                      • 8. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                        Noel Carboni Level 7
                        function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                        mattbatt wrote:

                         

                        It is a pretty bad image, just underexpose it a bit and use recovery, see what happens.

                         

                        http://formstudios.net/special/stuff/IMG_9181.CR2

                         

                        ACRComparison.jpg

                         

                        No difference CS4 or CS5.

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 9. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                          Noel Carboni Level 7

                          By the way, if it's a critical shot and you don't want to just throw it out, these techniques work...

                           

                          1.  Select the Brush tool, and set it for Color mixing mode.

                          2.  Sample the skin color close to the area that's blown out.

                          3.  Brush over the gray parts.  The Color mixing will colorize them nicely.

                          4.  Change the brush to Darken mode mixing, about 25% opacity, and a fuzzy edged brush.

                          5.  Sample the skin color near the pure white parts.

                          6.  Brush over the edges of the white parts to smooth the transition to white.

                           

                          You can actually recover such a photo fairly well.  To wit:

                           

                          Retouched.jpg

                          -Noel

                          • 10. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                            mattbatt Level 1

                            Noel,

                            wow great job on the correction, thank you for the tips.

                             

                            Canon's DPP is sharper and more accurate than acr, I had done some tests regarding noise and moir a year ago and it won out. However, I have not tested a raw converter that has a recover option like acr. In fact, I know of none.

                             

                            Yet, it seems that this recover slider is quite useless - promising much but not delivering in critical parts (faces!). If the red channel is blown out, no good. I spent a few hours adjusting 200 raw grad photos - recover works fine for cooler colors or skin tone that is oversaturated, not blown out.

                             

                            Clouds, windows, background objects, glass, those recover ok, not faces though (why I'm guessing the red channel is having problems).

                             

                            Adobe contacted me - I have been talking to a photoshop develper. It seems that this is just 'the way it is' - I will report more.

                             

                            PS: logically, the argument cannot be made that there is 'no data' since one can clearly see that data, texture and pixels do recover. If it would just sample the neighboring color, it would work. If one channel was completely blown (red) but it recovered blue and green, then you would have a wrong hue for sure, but not gray, lol.

                            • 11. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                              Level 4

                              mattbatt wrote:

                               

                              Noel,

                              wow great job on the correction…

                               

                               

                              While I fully agree that Noel did a superb job on the restoration, it has to be emphasized that we're not talking about "correcting" or "recovering" highlights here but about restoring an image, much as one would restore a painting.

                               

                              The highlights are completely blown in this hopelessly overexposed image, there is absolutely nothing there to recover or correct.  (Yes, I downloaded the raw CR2 image.)

                               

                              Restoration is what is required here, and Mr. Carboni has done a masterful job of it here.  Kudos to him.

                               

                              It never crossed my mind that anyone could or would ever expect magical powers to be available in ACR.

                               

                               

                              Wo Tai Lao Le

                              我太老了

                              • 12. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                                Level 4

                                mattbatt wrote:

                                 

                                …logically, the argument cannot be made that there is 'no data' since one can clearly see that data, texture and pixels do recover…

                                 

                                No, as I just typed above, pixels were in fact painted in in order to restore the image.

                                 

                                Gray in ACR results not from "recovery" of non-existing pixels, but from transforming the absence of color and detail (255, 255, 255) to something like 215, 215, 215 with zero detail.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                mattbatt wrote:

                                 

                                … If one channel was completely blown (red) but it recovered blue and green, then you would have a wrong hue for sure, but not gray, lol.

                                 

                                Even at the risk of further beating a dead horse, what I contend here—unabashedly—‚is that all three channels are completely blown.  Just toast.  There is nothing to recover.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                Wo Tai Lao Le

                                我太老了

                                • 13. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                                  Level 4

                                  [Deleted by poster to eliminate duplication]

                                  • 14. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                                    Consider this:

                                     

                                    Fact:  There are areas where luminance data has been derived from the nearly overexposed raw file, but just no color information.  Hence the gray parts.  We can agree that there isn't enough information to create full color pixels there the same way it's done for the other pixels.

                                     

                                    Fact:  I painted color over those gray areas from color sampled from nearby pixels.

                                     

                                    This could be done programmatically.

                                     

                                    A recovery strategy that would bleed color from nearby colors might in fact produce a more USABLE image more often.  It might still be wrong, and people could still hand-retouch such an image.

                                     

                                    May I respectfully request that the current recovery methods, while good (and groundbreaking when they were introduced to be sure) could still use some improvement.  It's even clear to most people a way it could be done (described above).

                                     

                                    There can most certainly be improvements to the recovery strategy.  There is a Recovery slider precisely because Adobe wants to deliver better conversions than the competition when the data is at the fringe.

                                     

                                    Let us please try not to focus on methods before results.  The latter is what matters.

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 15. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                                      Noel Carboni Level 7
                                      function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                      Tai Lao wrote:


                                      Gray in ACR results not from "recovery" of non-existing pixels, but from transforming the absence of color and detail (255, 255, 255) to something like 215, 215, 215 with zero detail.

                                       

                                      I wanted to answer this one point separately:  You are COMPLETELY incorrect with the above statement.  It is overly simplistic and unfortunately you are misleading people with your matter-of-fact writing style.

                                       

                                      From what I can see, WHITE results from all three color channels maxed-out.  GRAY results from one or more channels retaining some actual data, and Camera Raw, not wishing to put up a hue-shifted color, sets the R, G, and B, values the same (essentially copying data from the channels(s) that have data to those that are maxed-out).  Look closely - you can see texture in that gray area.  How can you describe that as an absense of detail?

                                       

                                      You cannot lump white - complete absence of information - with gray - recovery of luminance information - into the same category.

                                       

                                      -Noel

                                      • 16. Re: CS5 raw camera highlight bug
                                        mattbatt Level 1

                                        Tai Lao wrote:

                                        It never crossed my mind that anyone could or would ever expect magical powers to be available in ACR.

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        The simple fact is, the Adobe team does not have to provide a recovery slider in acr. We won't die, people will soon learn to get spot on exposure. But they do include a recovery option, so Adobe, don't advertise recovery possibilities that work ineffectivly!

                                         

                                        I had other images that were not nearly as blow out (this was one shot out of a burst of shots, I got a correct exposure soon after but I wanted to see what I could do with this blown out image - it is my choice to experiment and I was testing acr 6.1). However, for faces, even hot spots are hard to recover. Hot spots happen all too often, even among professionals especially at fast paced events. In fact, the recovery option doesn't do too much before gray artifacts appear (this tested among a range of photos, some exposed spot on).

                                         

                                        Like Noel stated before me: there is data - gray data - but data non-the-less: there is texture and pixels within the blown out areas. The fact that Adobe pulls it in as gray and does no nieghboring color sampling is unfortunate and really makes this tool a headache.

                                         

                                        For touching up one photo, sure brushing some color over it is fine, but for batch photo recovery with hot spots? no. And I can assure you that I have 10 stops of latitude with my 5dmkII, something Adobe should take advantage of. The camera captured the data.