39 Replies Latest reply: Oct 28, 2010 4:55 PM by enzoconti RSS

    InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3

    Shallowmyre

      I work at a weekly newspaper, and we have been using and InDesign/InCopy workflow for several years. The Reporters use InDesign CS2 (never did get around to installing the CS3 upgrades we bought because at first the computers they use wouldn't handle it, and after the computer upgrades got done all around, no one ever bothered). After the stories are written, the editor reviews them in InCopy, then releases them to the page designers who are now working in InDesign CS3 as part of Standard and Premium Suites.

       

      We are considering upgrading to InDesign CS5, but absolutely NONE of the reporters or the editor needs (or will ever use) the listed improvements included in InCopy CS5. Since there are nine InCopy products in the office, and as everyone knows the economy sucks - especially for PRINTED NEWSPAPERS these days, we really hate to have to upgrade just for upgrades sake.

       

      I have downloaded InDesign CS5 trial to check if our CS3 files will open and work in it, after reading an article published in the Washington Newspaper, a publication put out by the Washington Newspaper Publishers Association, reported that one of the state's newspapers happily upgraded to CS5 and had a nightmare of problems just opening their CS4 files. This has my editor very nervious about us upgrading. So... I'm testing it out, and I can't place, then open and edit our CS3 Incopy Files. I get a message that says "this story needs toa be converted to "InCopy Document" format to edit it. I've saved it in InCopy CS3 to both incx and incd formats, and both receive the error. Has Adobe made simple InCopy files incompatible with InDesign? I can import files from just about everywhere BUT InCopy??? The Sister Program?

       

      Please advise a simple work around, or I'll bet our upgrade is totally put off.

       

      Daria Lacy

      The Reflector

        • 1. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
          BobLevine UGM

          Sorry, but for and IC/ID workflow to work properly everyone needs to be on the same version.

           

          Bob

          • 2. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
            Shallowmyre Community Member

            Well, InCopy CS2 worked just fine with InDesign CS3.

             

            This is really disgusting, and you can pass it on to the powers that be at Adobe that I think so.

             

            We went thru a lot of agonizing about how to work our processes when we decided to go with InDesign instead of Quark, and took a lot of time to decide what to use as a "word processor" for the reporters. We finally chose InCopy because of it's compatibility with InDesign, but it's really stupid that one can keep using a basic simple program for the basic simple reporters - all they need is type input and some paragraph styles - and let the Designers do the real stuff.

             

            Looks like we should have made the decision to go with Word for our processor - as apparently InDesign will import that WITH it's character styles just fine, but not it's own sister program - really, really stupid!!!

             

            Daria

            • 3. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
              BobLevine UGM

              There were certainly incompatibilities between IC CS2 and ID CS3. That you didn't stumble on any of them can be chalked up to nothing but dumb luck.

               

              This workflow was never intended to be used with different versions. I'm sorry you're disgusted but I can assure you that you would have run up against the same issues with Quark and QPS.

               

              If you want to go with Word, go for it, but I can assure you the time that will be wasted trying to synch RTF or DOCX files would have more than made up for the $99 upgrade price for InCopy.

               

              As for passing on your thoughts to Adobe, feel free to do that yourself. I don't work there.

               

              One final thought. It sounds like you're only creating content with InCopy. If that's the case, you're missing out on the real power of the program and that's allowing editors/writers to edit content without disturbing the layout but still seeing everything exactly how it will appear in the final document.

               

              Bob

              • 4. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                Shallowmyre Community Member

                $99 would be fine - it's the X9 that sucks - we're talking $1,000 bucks. That's no chump change it these days and times when newspapers are struggling to survive.

                 

                Our reporters and the editor don't want to be designers - and they can see just fine what the layout looks like on the proof pages we put out on the two days we bring the newspaper together - so all they need is the input of the text and the paragraph styles - and then the opportunity to fix minor spelling errors within the work frame. It's not rocket science and the simpler the program for the reporters and the editor the better. They are completely happy to leave the designing to the designers.

                 

                So yah, we may not be utilizing the program to it's fullest extent - but then - we don't use Photoshop to it's full extent to design and publish a newspaper either. We don'e exactly need to seamlessly make a dog's head on a birds body here. But at least they haven't designed incompatibility into it.

                 

                I just tried and was able to import a file saved in InCopy to RTX into InDesign, complete with the formating. Too bad it can't now be edited for minor typos and stay linked.

                 

                Sorry to rag on you, I assumed you worked for Acobe as one of their experts. I'll figure out where to post my anger to them that count!

                 

                Daria

                • 5. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                  BobLevine UGM

                  You're not even coming close to using it to its fullest. In fact, given your workflow I can't see any need for InCopy at all.

                   

                  You are missing out on the ability to have the writer directly edit the text even while the designer is working on another part of the layout and having more than one writer or editor working on it at a time.

                   

                  While I understand your frustration, it's misdirected. Adobe designed the programs to work a certain way within very specific workflows. You're trying to go outside those bounds. Much like driving a Ferrari on a dirtbike track and then complaining that the car is junk.

                   

                  For many of us who use these programs to their fullest extent, we'd rather see Adobe pour resources into new features than to try to maintain backward compatibility.

                   

                  Bob

                  • 6. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                    Shallowmyre Community Member

                    We're using the two programs exactly as they were described to us when we bought the origial CS2 versions of both, to allow reporters to write, editors to look at and edit COPY, designers to place the files in InDesign, others to do typo corrections and for all to work together, at the same time, doing their own jobs. And it's worked great. And yes, we do need it to do all these things compatibly. Which is why we chose the system in the first place.

                     

                    We have used Indesign CS3 and InCopy CS2 for about 4 years with no compatibility problems - ever - so I don't think it was dumb luck that we didn't have problems, I think that it was that we were using the programs exactly as they had been designed to be used, and as we'd like to continue using them.

                     

                    Our reporters and the editor don't have time to play with new tools and gadgets, nor do they care to. We designers love new tools and gadgets, and thus OUR desire to upgrade. The editor - READ OWNER - doesn't like new things or changes at all that involve him learning new tricks - it was hard enough to get him away from Word Perfect - and he shouldn't have to deal with design tools. He writes, he edits, he runs the business. He's hired us designers to do the fancy stuff. There is nothing wrong with that, and there's no reason for him to use any program to it's fullest if he doesn't need to. And there shouldn't be a reason for him to have to upgrade just to keep having his text flow into the designer's program.

                     

                    And I have no problem with Adobe going forward with the programs, putting in more and more things. But I do take exception to you implying that not allowing backward compatibility would hamper forward mobility with the programs. In fact - Adobe as apparently poured resources in to designing backward incompatibilty - why else would InDesign of any version not recognize incx files???? They are programming obsolecence into their programs.

                     

                    We're not trying to drive a Ferrari on a dirtbike track. We're trying to keep driving the dirtbike while someone else is putting Ferrari's on it and telling the dirtbikes to go away. Even when THEY designed the dirtbike! Makes little sense to me, but then, I'm also a farmer using a 40 year old baler - and I can still get parts - Go New Holland!!!!!

                     

                    It will also mean that I can't use InCopy CS3 to code my XML files for Dreamweaver - or at least that's what I'd bet on, I haven't had a chance to try that, as I haven't downloaded the trial of Dreamweaver CS5 yet. Basically, I'm really dissappointed people are forced to upgrade a program they are completely happy with just to keep it compatible with other program(s) they do want more functionality from. It's a little easier to understand when it's completly different companies, or OS programs - like Extensis Suitcase 9 not working in Windows 7 - but within a "family" it doesn't make much sense. If we needed the advanced capabilities of IC CS5 - we'd be happy to upgrade, it's a shame we're forced to. We may put it off a bit longer!

                     

                    Daria

                    • 7. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                      Shallowmyre Community Member

                      PS,

                       

                      I've looked around Adobe - and I see no place to put in comments such as mine that are directed at employees unless it's a bug, or an idea for a new function. If you can direct me to where I can express my feelings on this matter to someone who might be able to take it into consideration - I'd really appreciate it.

                       

                      Daria

                      • 8. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                        AnneMarie Concepcion ACP

                        Daria, I agree with much of what you've said! And you said it so well. ;-) I have a number of small/community newspaper clients using ID/IC just as you describe.

                         

                        I think Adobe should've created 2 versions of InDesign, one Pro, one Pro Extended ... and the Extended one would be bundled with InCopy ... something like that. Because the 2 programs really need to work together as a single system, implying version parity between the 2. So people would never think to try and mix versions.

                         

                        The fact that you've been able to get a mixed version workflow to work is great, and indeed that's also possible with CS4 and CS3; and CS5 and CS4.

                         

                        But it's the skipping of 2 versions that's the issue ... the CS5 to CS3.

                         

                        CS4 was kind of a like a "transition" version; and with CS5 the transition is complete. For example, in ID CS4 you could export the layout to InDesign Interchange format (INX) or the new IDML format; but in CS5, INX is gone, only IDML is avail.

                         

                        I was going to say that one place you could complain would be DearAdobe.com, but it looks like they're having database issues.

                         

                        Bob and I can email the ID/IC engineering team members we know with a link to this thread, so at least you'll know the right people are reading it. They may respond, too.

                         

                        AM

                        http://incopysecrets.com

                        • 9. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                          BobLevine UGM

                          While I'm usually in total agreement with AM, this time my opinion differs. Backward incompatibility is fact of life in today's programs. Quark can only go back one version as well and there are still the usual incompatibilities with new features getting lost.

                           

                          And as AM pointed out, going two versions out is a real deal killer. The real issue I have with Adobe is totally killing availability of older versions when new ones come out. After all, this is a company that still sells Pagemaker!

                           

                          For folks like you, they should allow the ID users to move to CS3 at the same cost as CS5 with downgrade rights. Similar to what Microsoft did when Vista came out and you could still buy XP. I also wouldn't mind seeing them include an InCopy license with each InDesign license.

                           

                          But, I'll repeat what I said earlier. For the purpose of simply placing text into InDesign, any word processor will do. There's no need for InCopy at all. But for editing the documents once placed into ID you need to understand that the text engines have changed from one version to the next, so the copy fit is going to be off. Additionally, what about new features such as split/span/balanced column features and multiple page sizes? How are you proposing to handle that? Are you going to tell the designers not to use those advanced functions?

                           

                          If so, how do you justify the upgrade to begin with? I realize $990 is not peanuts, but if you take the time to really use InCopy to its fullest, you'll find it to be an investment well worth making. Why not download the demos and test it out with one or two writers that aren't as resistant to change? You may find that you have some new allies in moving ahead with this.

                           

                          Bob

                          • 10. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                            Shallowmyre Community Member

                            AnneMarie,

                             

                            Please do e-mail the engineering team members, as I think this is something they should be listening in on.

                             

                            I do understand not keeping the really complicated programs backwards compatible, but it was our understanding, brought on by one of the Adobe Education Team, that InCopy is the word processor-type input engine for InDesign, and that's exactly what we use it for. Specifically removing the incx tag from CS5 wouldn't seem to be a problem of coding not working, or an incompatibility issue, it's seems to be specifically driven by a desire to force people to upgrade. The dissappearace of the tag itself from recognition enforces that notion. I'm not a coding engineer, but it seems that the code that allows InDesign to see older InCopy files from older editions. What happens if we need to go back and use a story written last year... we have to re-write it? Or at very least open it in a new version of InCopy and re-save it. - And we'll have to do that with ALL stories written prior to CS5, even if we upgrade all stations? What a pain.

                             

                            I can definately see your point about two editions of InDesign, with InCopy included in the suite, although that wouldn't help us for the most part, as most of our 9 copies of InDesign are NOT used on the same machines with InDesign. We have 5 copies of InDesign, all used for the layout of our newspaper. We have 9 copies of InCopy and only 2 of those overlap the InDesign stations.

                             

                            And we have no problems with upgrading here - IF the new options are needed. In our case, they are not. As I will point out in my answer to  Bob's most recent post.

                             

                            And thanks for sending this on to the engineering team,

                             

                            Daria

                            • 11. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                              BobLevine UGM

                              Let's separate a couple of things here.


                              1. Creating text from scratch in InCopy for placement in ID.

                              I'm in total agreement with you that these files should be compatible with any newer version of ID just as any newer version of ID can open any older version.

                               

                              2. Using InCopy to edit content that's been placed in ID and then exported as an InCopy story or assignment.

                              This is whole different ballgame because the idea here is for the InCopy user to get a WYSYWIG look at the layout and to be able to edit content while getting copyfit feedback.This is where we seemingly disagree because at this point, it's no different than trying to open an InDesign file created in a newer version with an older version. Are you aware that InCopy can actually open InDesign files?

                               

                              As I mentioned mentioned earlier, with the text engine changing and many new layout features added, there's no way to get this to work properly.

                               

                              Perhaps you can clarify the above two points so I have a better understanding about what you're hoping to accomplish.

                               

                              Bob

                              • 12. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                Shallowmyre Community Member

                                Bob,

                                 

                                I have to feel that you aren't really reading my posts. While I did mention that our reporters and editor lessentially use InCopy for a word processing program, I did specifically mention in my last post that we use the program for exactly what it was originally intended, for reporters to write and edit, for designers to layout the text, and for writers/and or correction people to get into the files and fix problems - up until the last minute, so yes, we do need to use InCopy, in the manner we were told it was developed for. We don't use it for viewing layouts - that's what InDesign is for.

                                 

                                PLUS, none of our reporters have time, inclination or need to view the layout as it appears in InDesign. If they did, we'd get InDesign for them. They are busy investigating and writing stories, they don't have time to learn even the basics of layout, and frankly, they don't even want to. The one single reporter that is interested has learned some of the basics of InDesign, but she doesn't use it on a regular basis, and dosn't need or want to view the pages. She does need and want to edit a story occasionally even after it's been placed into the layout, but she want's to view it as the same copy she wrote, so she can do it quickly, not as a page layout she has to hunt thru it and every other story on the page to find the problem.

                                 

                                I don't mind Adobe stopping selling older versions - don't blame them at all on that one - if you're buying a new product - go buy the latest and greatest. If the version didn't matter, you wouldn't have to worry if about matching your other versions and you wouldn't need to find an old version. But why BUILD IN obselecense in a PART of a system within just a couple of years. We're using CS3 InDesign, yes, but we bought it just shortly before they came out with CS4. If we'd known when the release would be (we don't track the industry close enough to be checking on when release dates are "expected" to be) we'd have probably waited the 4 months and upgraded to that. But time wise, we haven't had the CS3 THAT long, so I don't go along with the "two versions back is too old" theory.

                                 

                                I'm afraid I don't quite see why the text fit would change from one version to another when the fit is based on font, text size, etc. And that doesn't change, Times Roman, 10.5 point on 10.7 leading...  And as far as split/span/balanced column features and mutiple page sizes - those aren't going to affect our work flow at all. All we need is the ability to write text, and edit that text from other desks besides the designers, as well as the designers being able to open the file to fix headline size in InDesign.

                                 

                                As for the reporters getting the trial version and trying it out - did you miss where I mentioned that we provided CS3 to all of them, and pretty much none of them bothered to load it onto their computers??? They don't want any bells and whistles. They want to keep going as they are going.

                                 

                                If they wanted to go to the latest and greatest - it'd wouldnt' be an issue - but they don't need or want it, why should they be forced to upgrade just for the sake of upgrading?

                                 

                                And that also brings up the issue, when we buy those 7 versions that aren't going on computers with InDesign (and the whole rest of the Standard and Design Suites) who wants to bet me that it's gonna take more hard drive space, more ram, and there's a huge potential that it ain't even going to fit on their computers and still leave room for it to think?

                                 

                                And just one other though - just because backwards incompatibility is a fact of life in today's programs - does that make it good or right?

                                 

                                What this basically means, with no specific NEED for the designers to upgrade to InDesign CS5, and the requirement that if they do we'll have to upgrade not only the reporter's versions of InCopy AND most probably, their computers, we will probably put off upgrading and wait another year and a half for CS6.

                                 

                                Daria

                                • 13. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                  BobLevine UGM

                                  While I did mention that our reporters and editor lessentially use InCopy for a word processing program, I did specifically mention in my last post that we use the program for exactly what it was originally intended, for reporters to write and edit, for designers to layout the text, and for writers/and or correction people to get into the files and fix problems - up until the last minute, so yes, we do need to use InCopy, in the manner we were told it was developed for. We don't use it for viewing layouts - that's what InDesign is for.

                                  I think the issue here is that you don't fully understand what InCopy really is for. While creating content from scratch is certainly part of it, the major benefit is to allow the editors and writer to edit the content AS IF THEY WERE USING INDESIGN. Once that content is in an InDesign layout, they shouldn't be opening InCopy files anymore. They should be opening the InDesign file or an InCopy assignment that's been exported out by the InDesign user.

                                   

                                  IOW, that means viewing and editing within the layout.

                                  I'm afraid I don't quite see why the text fit would change from one version to another when the fit is based on font, text size, etc. And that doesn't change, Times Roman, 10.5 point on 10.7 leading...  And as far as split/span/balanced column features and mutiple page sizes - those aren't going to affect our work flow at all. All we need is the ability to write text, and edit that text from other desks besides the designers, as well as the designers being able to open the file to fix headline size in InDesign.

                                  Because of the text engine changes, it's entirely possible for line breaks to wind up in different places. That could mean an addition line of text from one version to the next. As for span/split/balance column, I can't see how you can upgrade to ID CS5 with a newspaper and not take full advantage of those features.

                                   

                                  Since you probably already hate me I'll give you another reason. From what I can tell of these posts, nobody on your staff as taken the time to fully learn the capabilities of InDesign or InCopy (not your fault, I've dealt with some very stuborn people trying to get them to see the benfits of change). So let me put in a plug for Anne Marie. Her Lynda.com training videos for InCopy are fabulous. A $25 month to month subscription would be money very well spent. And while you're there, have a look David Blatner's InDesign essentials training. I think it will open your eyes to what's really possible here.

                                   

                                  Bob

                                  • 14. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                    Shallowmyre Community Member

                                    Bob,

                                     

                                    1. Creating text from scratch in InCopy for placement in ID.

                                     

                                    YES - these files should be compatible with any newer version of ID just as any newer version of ID can open in older version. THEY ARE NOT apparently compatible with the newer version of ID. That's exactly my complaint.

                                     

                                    2. Using InCopy to edit content that's been placed in ID and then exported as an InCopy story or assignment.

                                     

                                    We aren't exporting the InCopy anywhere. Here's our scenerio.

                                     

                                    Reporter writes a story in InCopy, files it as an incx.

                                     

                                    Editor opens in InCopy, reads story, edits copy as he sees fit... PRINTS a hard copy to send to proof reading, and saves the file into the ready to place folder.

                                     

                                    Designer does page layout in InDesign, placing inx files as needed to fill out the page. Designer checks out inx file in order to change font size of headline to fit available space and number of columns story will fill, and may occasionally change the horizontal spacing just slightly, if necessary to better fit the story. Designer checks inx file back in.

                                     

                                    Occasionally a story will still be under construction as the layout of the paper is being done. We're a weekly, and we spend two days laying out the paper. So a reporter may need to go back and do minor revisions as the designer is laying out th page (obviously only one has it checked out at a time), but does NOT ever change the layout issues (font size, etc) of the copy. They pretty much only use story or galley views - they don't even seem to like layout view. IF the length of the story changes, causing fitting issues in the layout - it's the designer's job to fix those, NOT the reporters or editor.

                                     

                                    As for opening InDesign files in InCopy, no, I did not know that - and frankly, I don't see any good reason for that . If you need to view the InDesign file - get InDesign! - InCopy was sold to use as primarily a writing tool - NOT a design tool - that's how we use it, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

                                     

                                    I can see that features could change - and I understand that if those features are used, an older version couldn't open it - but why can a NEW version of InDesign NOT open an older version of InCopy. And if no new bells and whistles are applied to that file, and it's checked back in as an inx InCopy should still be able to open and edit test. That it can't seems abosolutely stupid to me.

                                     

                                    Daria

                                    • 15. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                      Shallowmyre Community Member

                                      Bob,

                                       

                                      Well, I don't hate you, hate is a pretty stong word.

                                       

                                      But that was certainly an insult to my knowledge of InDesign considering you don't know my or what I do at all. And I also don't see how whether we use the programs to their 100% full advantage has anything to do with the issue here. For an example - I don't put chicken heads on dog bodies seamlessly using Photoshop, as it's not something I need to do in any of my work flows. Other people do, and that's great. But does the fact that I don't make me any less of a competent Photoshop user??

                                       

                                      But I digress...  I'd be the first to admit that I don't know all the ins and outs of InDesign. But I'm DAMN good at using it for the way the process works here.

                                       

                                      But, you're sounding more and more like a computer geek who doesn't use the programs in the real world - the one where reporters don't have time to deal with design, nor do the even care to. They like to write - not design. I like to design - not write - and the way InDesign and InCopy work for us has been great.

                                       

                                      I'll have to take you at your word about the text engine changing. I strongly doubt that that is the real issue here. If Adobe had left in the recognition of inx files - things would probably still work JUST FINE in the context we use the programs. But apparently they SPECIFICALLY removed that recognition from CS5.

                                       

                                      Daria

                                      • 16. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                        BobLevine UGM

                                        And one more time. I agree with you 100% that the files should be placeable in InDesign.

                                         

                                        It's at that point where we disagree. Once that content is in InDesign it's going to be impossible for InCopy CS3 users to edit it.

                                         

                                        The text engine changing isn't the only issue. It's just one of the issues.

                                         

                                        And one last thing. While I take great pride in calling myself a geek, I'm very well versed in using both of these programs in the real word having started using InDesign at version 1.0 more than 10 years ago.

                                         

                                        Bob

                                        • 17. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                          Shallowmyre Community Member

                                          <<I think the issue here is that you don't fully understand what InCopy really is for. While creating content from scratch is certainly part of it, the major benefit is to allow the editors and writer to edit the content AS IF THEY WERE USING INDESIGN. Once that content is in an InDesign layout, they shouldn't be opening InCopy files anymore. They should be opening the InDesign file or an InCopy assignment that's been exported out by the InDesign user.>>

                                           

                                          WHY should they be opening the InDesign file???? If all they want to look at is the story or galley view - and PREFER to look at that version?

                                          • 18. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                            BobLevine UGM

                                            Because they still won't see an accurate galley view without opening it properly. Opening the InCopy story by itself loses all of the information from the layout including the line breaks that you'd get in the galley view.

                                             

                                            Seriously, please view Anne Marie's videos on Lynda.com. After that come back and tell me I'm wrong and I'll send you the $25.00 to cover a full month of Lynda.com.

                                             

                                            Bob

                                            • 19. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                              Shallowmyre Community Member

                                              Bob,

                                               

                                              You tell me a really good reason WHY the reporters need to see what the layout looks like??? All they want to do is write and edit text. So why do they need to see the layout?

                                               

                                              Daria

                                              • 20. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                IDEAS-Training Community Member

                                                Do they ever need to edit-to-fit the copy?

                                                • 21. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                  Shallowmyre Community Member

                                                  Nope. Any copyfitting that needs to be done is done by the designers. Occasionally, very very rarely, we (the designers) ask for a couple paragraphs to be removed... and they tell us what can go if needed... they don't do it.

                                                   

                                                  So you see, we don't need the new capabilities of InCopy CS5, nor do I see us ever needing it for them. Thus my delimma. We designers would like to upgrade - but if we have to drag them up with us AND probably upgrade their computers (which is why CS3 wasn't immediately put on their computers - they couldn't handle it - and they were instructed to let me know after the upgrades when they wanted me to install it for them, none ever came and asked) it's just not worth it.

                                                   

                                                  BTW, thanks for the education offer, but I'm currently putting my "further education" time to learning InDesign to ePub and than taking that on to Mobi for e-books. Plus, since I just personally upgraded to CS5 Master, one of my freelance clients thinks I should be planning to do minor video stuff for his local TV station... that'll be a new experience!!!

                                                   

                                                  Dragging our editor and the reporters up isn't on the playbook right now! Especially since it's not needed.

                                                   

                                                  Daria

                                                  • 22. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                    BobLevine UGM

                                                    Because, as I've been saying all along, that's what InCopy is really designed for.

                                                     

                                                    To allow the writers and editor to have the full range of tools for editing text in the InDesign layout and remove the responsibility for copy fit from the designer.

                                                     

                                                    I get that you don't want that, but what you're looking to do is not the workflow it was truly designed for.

                                                     

                                                    Bob

                                                    • 23. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                      Shallowmyre Community Member

                                                      <<And one more time. I agree with you 100% that the files should be placeable in InDesign.

                                                       

                                                      It's at that point where we disagree. Once that content is in InDesign it's going to be impossible for InCopy CS3 users to edit it.>>

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Well, at this point you can't even open the InCopy file in InDesign to edit it there - so I guess it's a mute point.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      <<And one last thing. While I take great pride in calling myself a geek, I'm very well versed in using both of these programs in the real word having started using InDesign at version 1.0 more than 10 years ago.>>

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Well, you've got me beat there - I've only been using InDesign for about 8 years, backed by about 13 or so years with Quark, and no - I wouldn't go back. That's all on top of over 34 years in the printing industry, as a Graphic Artist - for which I have a degree. So it's not like I don't know what I'm doing either .

                                                       

                                                      So I've probably beaten this horse to death... it just aggevates me that ANY company makes it this difficult to move forward step by small step with keeping their programs moving forward. These $5,000 leaps are hard to justify every 1.5 to 2 years.

                                                       

                                                      Daria

                                                      • 24. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                        Shallowmyre Community Member

                                                        Hum....

                                                         

                                                        I wonder what the Certified Adobe Expert that got us all set up would say to that....

                                                         

                                                        We may not be using them to their fullest extent - but we ARE using them in one way they were intended to work. The designers DO not have to set character and paragraph styles, because the reporters use the styles WE set up for them. But we haven't saddled them with the layout duties... that's what WE get paid the big bucks for! And beside - I can't write for sh- - !

                                                         

                                                        Daria

                                                        • 25. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                          IDEAS-Training Community Member

                                                          Why not have the reporters supply text in a Word template with desired styles preset?

                                                          • 26. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                            BobLevine UGM

                                                            I think he/she would tell you that InDesign and InCopy were designed to work together within the same version...which is exactly what this Adobe Certified Expert is telling you.

                                                             

                                                            Bob

                                                            • 27. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                              Shallowmyre Community Member

                                                              Hey David,

                                                               

                                                              Because the copy is edited for typos and such outside of InDesign. We have 5 designers working on various aspects of the Newspaper using InDesign, and 3 Reporters - we're down one, as he passed away - and an editor/writer, writing the stories in InCopy and using Paragraph Styles so that it flows into InDesign without us Designers having to do that. But they don't to layout, as mentioned above, and don't care to learn it.

                                                               

                                                              My one and only grip is that the inx format was apparently done away with in CS5, FORCING the upgrade to CS5 Incopy if we upgrade to CS5 InDesign.

                                                               

                                                              And it's not really InDesign we're so interested in upgrading, it's more related to Photoshop and Illustrator, etc. But four of the InDesign copys are part of Suites. It's all or nothing!

                                                               

                                                              BTW, if anyone is interested - you can view our paper at www.TheReflector.com - the page views are in the archives. For not using InCopy as it was designed - I think we do ok

                                                               

                                                              But hey - the layout is well on it's way for publication on Monday and I'm outa here!!!!

                                                               

                                                              Daria

                                                              • 28. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                Shallowmyre Community Member

                                                                Bob,

                                                                 

                                                                We're not really looking to do anything different that we've been doing - and that's my point.

                                                                 

                                                                It works! And the only thing you should fix that ain't broken is a cat!

                                                                 

                                                                Good Night!

                                                                 

                                                                Daria

                                                                • 29. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                  BobLevine UGM

                                                                  Good night, Gracie!

                                                                   

                                                                  Bob

                                                                  • 30. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                    AnneMarie Concepcion ACP

                                                                    > My one and only grip is that the inx format was apparently done away  with in CS5, FORCING the upgrade to CS5 Incopy if we upgrade to CS5  InDesign.>

                                                                     

                                                                    You lost me there.

                                                                     

                                                                    Are you talking about the lack of the INX export format for the document itself? That has nothing to do with InCopy. ID CS5 still has the same backwards compatibility with previous InDesign versions that ID CS4 had and ID CS3 had ... that is, you can export the layout in a format that one version back can open. (Though ID CS4 can export the layout to INX format, only ID CS3 could open that ... ID CS2 would not be able to.)

                                                                     

                                                                    One more thing Daria (I know you're gone for the weekend, I will be too, soon) ... InCopy users do not do any layout when they open the INDD file in InCopy. (You keep saying your writers don't need to learn layout, that's what designers do... of course.) The major feature of InCopy is that it allows writers to write/edit their stories not just with the same styles as InDesign -- which could be done in Word -- but they can do so in the context of the layout/design, seeing the actual column width/depth and surrounding stories and artwork. They see how much room they have for a headline, where the line breaks are, they can write captions for photos easier because they can see the photos and identify each person in a group, they can avoid tombstoning, they can see their overset text and edit it to fit, things like that.

                                                                     

                                                                    If your editors aren't ever opening the layout (or assignment file, a subset of the layout) in InCopy, and they're not doing any editing to copyfit, then I'm with David ...I don't understand why you're using InCopy. Just create Word templates for them with the same style names as those used in InDesign. Wouldn't that work?

                                                                     

                                                                    You said something about working with older files. In the IC/ID workflow, when the layout is finished (the doc is sent to print or wherever), the recommended practice is to unlink all the InCopy stories in the INDD file, turning them into normal ID text frames, and then deleting all the standalone InCopy files sitting on the server. There is no need for them anymore.  If an InCopy user needs to grab a story from an archived INDD file ... well they just open the INDD file in InCopy, select all the text in the story, then copy/paste into their current InCopy story. No extra work needed from the designer.

                                                                     

                                                                    AM

                                                                    • 31. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                      John Hawkinson Community Member

                                                                      I have a lot of sympathy for all six sides here (two each for Daria, Bob, and Anne-Marie).

                                                                      We're a college paper that publishes twice-weekly, so I think have a decently good feel for what Daria has to contend with.

                                                                      Anyhow, Daria, you said:

                                                                       

                                                                      As for opening InDesign files in InCopy, no, I did not know that - and frankly, I don't see any good reason for that . If you need to view the InDesign file - get InDesign! - InCopy was sold to use as primarily a writing tool - NOT a design tool - that's how we use it, and I don't see that changing anytime soon.

                                                                      For us, there's absolutely a critical reason why you want to open InDesign layouts in InCopy, and why "get InDesign" is not a reasonable answer. And that is because a layout can only be opened in one running copy of InDesign, but multiple stories from that InDesign layout can be opened and edited in multiple copies of InCopy on multiple machines simultaneously.

                                                                       

                                                                      (We don't use InCopy/InDesign "straight up," we use them with Woodwing's SmartConnection, so we don't have to worry about assignments and exporting. But I believe the concepts are the same...hopefully I won't trip up and be wrong.)

                                                                       

                                                                      The real utility comes up with editing, and in the ability to compress and overlap parts of the workflow cycle. It's great we can do layout and editing of copy at the same time -- our production editors can lay out the copy while it's still being edited in InCopy (or even while it's still being written!). And perhaps more significantly, our editors can see and edit the copy in its final-form with its final linebreaks and final space constraints. There are some kinds of visual appearances to copy that knowing those things is immensely useful for. Example: tables; or worrying about how http://really.longURLthatisquitefanastic.com fits in a newspaper column and how it line-breaks.

                                                                       

                                                                      For instance, our content editors write headlines, because they get space allocated to them by layout editors and they can write the headlines to fit the space in InCopy. But I guess in your case your designers write the headlines? Or you have very loose headline fitting constraints?

                                                                       

                                                                      Now, if you absolutely have enough time for articles to be fully edited before they are layed out by your designers, well, you live in a very luxurious world. Full use of InCopy would let the writing and editing phases overlap with the layout, which is great. Your writers have more time to write, your editors have more time to edit, and your paper can have more breaking news and be more up-to-the-minute [up-to-the-day?].


                                                                       

                                                                      It occurs to me that possible workaround for you, as long as you are using InCopy merely to originate content, is to use

                                                                      InDesign Tagged Text. It might be a bit cumbersome (I suppose we could fix it with some scripting), but instead of saving InCopy assignments, instead export the document to InDesign Tagged Text (which requires File > Export instead of File > Save). The InDesignTaggedText format has not change from version to version, and even if it had, it's pretty well human-readible and it would be very easy to make a tool to adjust it as necessary. It would carry forward your style associations and all your non-layout information.

                                                                       

                                                                      So export indesign tagged text from CS3 and place it in CS5. Done deal, right?

                                                                       

                                                                      And it's not really InDesign we're so interested in upgrading, it's more related to Photoshop and Illustrator, etc. But four of the InDesign copys are part of Suites. It's all or nothing!

                                                                       

                                                                      Sorry, I'm not quite with you there — you can upgrade to CS5 and keep CS3 on the same machine. You can have all the rest of Creative Suite CS5 and just keep InDesign at CS3. Of course, it would feel a little silly, but you can absolutely do it...

                                                                      • 32. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                        BobLevine UGM

                                                                        AM,

                                                                         

                                                                        If you go back through this thread you'll see at some point Daria started using INX instead of INCX.

                                                                         

                                                                        I think I finally figured out what they're doing and I'll stick to my guns here. They are not using InCopy in a standard way.

                                                                         

                                                                        What they want to do is create InCopy text, place in ID and then continue to edit the text by opening the InCopy story without the InDesign layout info. Nice idea but you completely lose any benefit of InCopy with the exception of the raw content.

                                                                         

                                                                        IMO, they might just as well go back to marking up paper print outs because they're totally missing out the benefits of the workflow.

                                                                         

                                                                        Sadder still is the described attitude (not Daria's) of the folks working there. No time or desire to learn how to do it right? I even offered to pay for month of Lynda.com if they didn't get anything out of your InCopy videos and was turned down.

                                                                         

                                                                        Bob

                                                                        • 33. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                          BobLevine UGM

                                                                          Excellent post, John. Good to hear from someone who uses this everyday.

                                                                           

                                                                          Now, if you absolutely have enough time for articles to be fully edited before they are layed out by your designers, well, you live in a very luxurious world. Full use of InCopy would let the writing and editing phases overlap with the layout, which is great. Your writers have more time to write, your editors have more time to edit, and your paper can have more breaking news and be more up-to-the-minute [up-to-the-day?].

                                                                          Therein lies the problem. They DON'T have time for that, but even though they have tools at their disposal they haven't taken the time to learn how to use them. I've worked with groups like that in the past, and once they see how easy it really is to use InCopy in a streamlined workflow and the time it can save, the most vocal resistors become the biggist proponents.

                                                                           

                                                                          Anyway, I think I've said enough. They're entitled to work anyway they want. My biggest issue here is putting the blame squarely on Adobe for not keeping InCopy CS3 compatible with InDesign CS5. These programs have always been designed to work together properly only within the same version. I know that in the past there were some compatibilites that allow very basic work to be done across versions but it was never recommended.

                                                                           

                                                                          Bob

                                                                          • 34. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                            IDEAS-Training Community Member

                                                                            >...writing the stories in InCopy and using Paragraph Styles so that it flows into InDesign

                                                                            > without us Designers having to do that.

                                                                             

                                                                            This can be done with Word files using Word's paragraph and character styles too.

                                                                             

                                                                            If the goal is to simply import editors' files and automatically apply formatting, InCopy or Word can work.

                                                                             

                                                                            For me, one of the strengths of InCopy is the ability to edit to fit in galley or layout mode--but if you don't need these features, maybe you don't need InCopy?

                                                                            • 35. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                              enzoconti Community Member

                                                                              InDesign CS5 is a complete and utter PIG! DO NOT GO THERE!!!

                                                                               

                                                                              If you are currently on CS3 you will be totally disappointed with it, I have been using it for about 2 weeks and haven't had a single day without some major malfunction. I cannot believe they have released this PIG with so many problems. My productivity dropped through the floor, if you publish any sort of periodical you will not be able to rely on InDesign 5 to meet deadlines.

                                                                               

                                                                              I strongly advise you not to up-grade.

                                                                              • 36. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                                BobLevine UGM

                                                                                That you are disappointed is unfortunate. But perhaps if you listed the problems you're having someone might be able to help.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Bob

                                                                                • 37. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                                  enzoconti Community Member

                                                                                  Hi Bob, just venting! It was just a cautionary post to anyone looking at all the great new features in ID5 and thinking I just gotta have it. For every great new feature, there is an accompanying new problem.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I just got off the phone with Adobe Help for about the fifth time now and they were unable to help, although they have promised to call back. I spent the better part of yesterday building a large catalogue for a new job, after setting up paragraph styles for the many different bodies of text I found that today the attributes will only apply the the middle of the paragraph and the rest is highlighted in pink to indicate a missing font???? I've checked the attributes and there is no mention of this font anywhere.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I really can't recall every issue, suffice to say I have not had a problem free day since I left my beloved ID3.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                                    enzoconti Community Member

                                                                                    Just on a side note Bob, my frustration is that I shouldn't be having the type of problems I'm having. It is not unreasonable to buy a hammer and expect it to work like a hammer. I have a fairly intimate knowledge of InDesign, I have used it every working day for about 4+yrs, it's just not doing what it should do.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: InDesign CS5 and InCopy CS3
                                                                                      enzoconti Community Member

                                                                                      I replied to this post in a most disparaging way about InDesign 5, I have since had a change of hart. My initial experience with ID5 when first installed was not very favourable. I have installed updates, tweaked the preferences and made various other changes, and am now quite satisfied with it. Sure, it's still not as "clean" and fast as CS3, but it more than makes up for it with it's new features.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      I can fully recommend ID5, you may have a bit of work to bed it down but when you do I'm sure you'll be happy with it!