26 Replies Latest reply on Aug 17, 2011 11:20 PM by Keith Moreau

    MB Colorista vs built in CC?

    kingsheik1111 Level 1

      I was wondering how good is Magic Bullet Colorista vs the built in Premiere CS5 color correctors? Or should I incorporate a workflow that uses both? If so can someone give me advice on how to go about doing this? thank you!

        • 2. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
          Jeff Bellune Adobe Community Professional

          Patience, please.  No need to bump so quickly.

           

          You may find that there aren't that many Colorista users who use it in Pr.  The After Effects crowd is likely to have more Colorista users.

           

          Isn't there a trial for Colorista?  If so, you should try it for yourself to see if it works for you.

           

          If you're new to CC, then here's a really good book:

          The Art and  Technique of Digital Color Correction by Steve Hullfish

           

          -Jeff

          • 3. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
            joshtownsend Level 2

            Colorista is a much better color corrector but it's not Cuda enabled like the built-in 'fast color corrector. Personally I NEVER use the built in tools to color correct. Magic Bullet Looks and Colorista are way better that's not even my opinion, it's a fact.

             

            Do some research on LIFT/GAMMA/GAIN controls, that's what Colorista is. They are what professionals use for reason. The power comes from the Lift. It's basically your shadow control but unlike the built in 3 way corrector it lets you keep your blacks black while still adjusting them. Same with the gain (highlights) it keeps your whites bright. Another thing is the Exposure slider on it. Premiere is sorely lacking an exposure.

             

            That said, get the trial and play with it. Watch your scopes and see how the controls work with the waveform, you'll get it pretty quick.

             

            Don't buy Colorista just yet...wait...trust me. If you need the controls now buy MB Looks. It has a lift/gamma/gain control it that does the exact same thing as colorista. It'll get you by for now.

             

            BTW I know that the built in fast color corrector and the 3 way in Premiere work well, but they are not nearly as powerful.

            • 4. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
              Huntrex Level 2

              I have never used third party tools for color correction. I use RGB Curves almost exclusively; it's fast, and very effective. I've seen it take dull looking footage and turn it into "wow, look at that!". In my opinion, its the most effective color correction effect built into Premiere.

              • 5. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                joshtownsend Level 2

                I'll agree it the most effective one built in, and it works great for corporate, weddings that kinda stuff. But the MB plug-ins are are on a whole other level. When you correcting for nation broadcast, films, short films....you know the stuff with a decent budget that needs to be ....well...professional.

                 

                If your the type of person that doesn't want to know how/or doesn't need to know to use scopes to help color correct or what the difference between Lift/Gamma/Gain and Offset/Gamma/Gain is then the built in tools should be fine for you.

                 

                Curves are very powerful. Unfortunately  RGB Curves makes it very hard to be exact. It's nowhere the control that you get with Photoshop curves do or something like this http://www.frischluft.com/curves/index.php

                • 6. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                  I haven't tried CS5 yet, but I do prefer Colorista myself over the native effects in CS4.

                  • 7. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                    shooternz Level 6

                    My issue with the plugins, is they are not key frameable

                    and one is only  C.Cing a single frame as reference.

                     

                    I use all of the tools in various combinations to achieve the desired result.

                     

                    Usually CCSx Levels first...because I can play out the entire clip and key frame it if necessary....then whatever else.

                     

                    I use Colorista and MBs as well as CCx 3 Way mostly.

                    • 8. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                      Valter Vilar Level 2

                      What about the 3 way color corrector in Premiere? I can achieve last summer's Terminator and Transformers look with it (You know the ugly oversaturated, everything green and orangy skin tones look?)

                       

                      Isn't the 3 way color wheel the way they do in Hollywood? (I mean not in Premiere of course, but using a similar tool)

                      • 9. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                        joshtownsend Level 2

                        "Isn't the 3 way color wheel the way they do in Hollywood? (I mean not in  Premiere of course, but using a similar tool)"

                         

                        Thousands of people spend two hundred dollars for Colorista just for kicks instead of using the 3-way correctors built into Avid, Final Cut, Vegas, After Effects and Premiere Pro.

                         

                        Premiere Elements is similar Premiere Pro, they both have tools that let you slice video clips together. That's how they do it in Hollywood right?

                         


                        Sorry to go all sarcastic on you, but obviously what I'm saying is Colorista works with color in a COMPLETELY different way than a regular three-way.

                         

                        I don't feel like re-typing my first response in this thread (you know about googling Lift/gamma/gain and Offset/gamma/gain, using your scopes to see what exactly those color wheels are doing to your picture ect.) but here I'll give you a link that will help you out with your question.

                         

                        http://tinyurl.com/32kt3lm

                         

                        When you emulate the Hollywood blockbuster look with a regular three-way and you push your shadows into cyan (or green like you call it) notice how your blacks turn dull and...well....don't stay black. That's a big part of it.

                         

                        And just to clarify, Terminator:Salvation was not oversaturated, it barely had any color in it at all.

                         

                        If you don't get mad and defensive I'll really respect you.

                        • 10. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                          Valter Vilar Level 2

                          I feel really sorry for these "thousands" of guys who spent so much money for Colorista ($200.00) not knowing that Premiere and the other editors had a similar tool already, that could achieve a similar look.

                           

                          I meant that Transformers had an oversaturated look, green and orange palette. Terminator in comparison was almost in B&W.

                           

                          So lift/gamma/gain is the film industry way of saying shadows/midtones/highlights? By saying lift/gamma/gain does that make me a color grading expert? The same way that photographers do when they call lenses, glass? Hmmm... interesting.

                           

                          I am sure Colorista is much better than the 3 way color wheel built in and so is many other plug ins for After Effects but not everyone can afford every plug in that comes out. Rebel CC has worked for me in the past when I was using After Effects CS4 all the time. Now, I am using Premiere and because of Mercury I am avoiding anything that is non accelerated.

                           

                          Agreed about the shadows turning to "dull" colors.

                          • 11. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                            Huntrex Level 2

                            When you emulate the Hollywood blockbuster look with a regular three-way and you push your shadows into cyan (or green like you call it) notice how your blacks turn dull and...well....don't stay black. That's a big part of it.

                            Secondary color correction in the built in three-way can be used to selectively color correct part of the image while not affecting other parts. So the black handle on the luma slider can be adjusted to avoid coloring the blacks.

                            • 12. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                              joshtownsend Level 2

                              "Secondary color correction in the built in three-way can be used to selectively color correct part of the image while not affecting other parts. So the black handle on the luma slider can be adjusted to avoid coloring the blacks."

                               

                              Good idea. The secondary controls are very powerful but the interface is horrible. I never understood why Adobe won't improve on the built in correcting tools that we're designed before Premiere even became Premiere Pro. The 3 wheels for each of the highlight, mids and shadows plus the master control make it 10 separate color wheels that do the work that 3 wheels in Colorista or Boris 7's new 3-way corrector tool.

                               

                              Imagine having to adjust your secondairies on every shot of tv show or short film (forget a feature film) just keep your blacks black. Unless your doing graphic design or tinting a whole shot it's useless until you twirl down the to secondaries nudge those tiny squares and triangles.

                               

                              It wouldn't be hard to for them to change the three-way to at least a ASC CDL compliant corrector or better yet a LIFT model like colorista uses, it's a simple mathematical equation.

                              • CDL : ((input*slope)+offset)^(1/gamma)
                              • Lift :  gain * (input + lift * (1 – input)^(1/gamma))

                              (slope = gain ; offset = lift)

                               

                              The best around it would be to create a preset doing what Huntrex suggested and use that to control the shadows (or darks or blacks or whatever you want to call them).

                              The pain in the butt part about that is you then have to bring in another instance of fast color corrector to control the mid-range colors. Then if you want to keep your brightest whites white you have to use the secondary again (create another preset).

                               

                              That's three seperate instances of the plug-in just be able to color correct in a way just plain logical and quick.

                               

                              VALTER,

                               

                              I'm not going to get sucked in. It sounds like don't want to learn, you just want argue. Your first line about 'Feeling sorry for the people who wasted $200 dollars on Colorista'. Thats just ignorant and trollish. You obviously know who Stu Maschwitz is and you implied that you feel sorry for him, me, Shooterz and Jim Simon because we don't know about the standard 3-ways that come with the program. How can someone respond a statement like that?

                               

                              I will respond to this though:

                               

                              "I am sure Colorista is much better than the 3 way color wheel built in and so is many other plug ins for After Effects but not everyone can afford every plug in that comes out."

                               

                              Colorista exists because not everyone can afford a color correction suite that cost ten's of thousands of dollars like they use in Hollywood. If you don't have money for pro plug-ins or need for them in a professional capacity it is nothing to be embaressed about at all. I say that sincerely.

                              • 13. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                Valter Vilar Level 2

                                Read my words carefully: feel sorry for these guys who spent 200.00 dollars. Does that seem unreasonable to you?

                                 

                                So I was answering your sarcasm with more sarcasm but this is not the place for it. Truce?

                                 

                                I've installed Colorista trial and will give it a go. I still maintain though, that you can achieve the looks of Hollywood blockbusters with the built-in tools. Is it going to be more difficult, definitely yes.

                                • 14. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                  joshtownsend Level 2

                                  It's cool man, glad your checking it out and I wish you luck.

                                  • 15. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                    jonhand Level 1

                                    When I place a shot with 'superwhites' (often) onto Premiere timeline, adjust whites down using RGB curves, everything restores beautifully. NO crushing-blowout of my whites.  When I apply Colorista, anything above 100 gets blown out to solid white (not usable). This I believe has never been fixed in Colorista! Correct me if I wrong. I'm using PP CS4 and latest Colorista. Colorista is NOT usable. (there was a thread about this awhile back I believe).

                                    • 16. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                                      Both Looks and Colorista will force Premiere to work in RGB color space with a hard clip at 100 IRE.

                                      • 17. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                        jonhand Level 1

                                        If Colorista (and others) hard clip at 100 (RGB), then why in hell would someone use them? All the cameras I use these days record a wonderful range of superwhites. This seems so stupid to me.

                                        I do like Colorista, however, and it's one step solution to color correction (much better than fast color corrector, indeed). But the hard clipping is just not a professional way (tool) of going about it.

                                        • 18. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                          joshtownsend Level 2

                                          Your right clipping overbrights is unexceptable and makes Colorista unusable in CS4.

                                           

                                          This issue has been fixed for CS5 though Colorista and Looks both work as expected in CS5.

                                          • 19. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                            Harm Millaard Level 7

                                            Josh, how do I read this:

                                             

                                            Your right clipping overbrights is unexceptable and makes Colorista unusable in CS4.

                                             

                                            But the left clipping is not exceptional and thus acceptable or is it overly right on the left and unacceptable because it is an exception and not a rule, but it rules out Colorista?

                                             

                                            English is a strange language:

                                             

                                            There is no egg in eggplant nor ham in hamburger; neither apple nor pine in pineapple. English muffins weren't invented in England nor French fries in France. Sweetmeats are candies while sweetbreads, which aren't sweet, are meat. Quicksand works slowly, boxing rings are square and a guinea pig is neither from Guinea nor is it a pig. Why is it that writers write but fingers don't fing, grocers don't groce and hammers don't ham?

                                             

                                            If the plural of tooth is teeth, why isn't the plural of booth beeth? One goose, 2 geese. So one moose, 2 meese? Doesn't it seem crazy that you can make amends but not one amend. If you have a bunch of odds and ends and get rid of all but one of them, what do you call the thing left? Is it an odd, or an end?

                                             

                                            If teachers taught, why didn't preachers praught? If a vegetarian eats vegetables, what does a humanitarian eat? In what language do people recite at a play and play at a recital? Ship by truck and send cargo by ship? Have noses that run and feet that smell? Where you park on the driveway and drive on the parkway.

                                             

                                            How can a slim chance and a fat chance be the same, while a wise man and a wise guy are opposites? You have to marvel at the unique lunacy of a language in which your house can burn up as it burns down, in which you fill in a form by filling it out and in which an alarm goes off by going on.

                                             

                                            English was invented by people, not computers, and it reflects the creativity of the human race, which, of course, is not a race at all. That is why, when the stars are out, they are visible, but when the lights are out, they are invisible.

                                            • 20. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                              joshtownsend Level 2

                                              That was kinda overdramatic of me.

                                               

                                              I don't have a good excuse. It's not like English is my second language. I hate all the initialism and shorthand the Internet has brought us and let people know that so it makes me hypocritical. On a forum that is visited by people from all over the world I should represent the English language in a proper way.

                                               

                                               

                                              Do you actually type all that up just for me? Or was a copy paste thing you had. Thanks keeping me straight man.

                                               

                                              I'd to rephrase what I said.

                                               

                                              Damn your correct. It clips the overbrights and screws up my waveform up in general. Now I have to go through an hour of footage on a project I've been slowly working on for the past year and maybe have to some clips into After Effects I don't have time to proof this post,

                                              • 21. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                                Valter Vilar Level 2

                                                Harm, this is genius or should I say ingenious? English is my 2nd. language, maybe the 3rd even but, I often wondered about all the ups and the fat chance/slim chance thing. English doesn't make as much sense to me as let's say Spanish or French but it is much easier to learn? How does that make any sense?

                                                 

                                                Anyway, I think the thread has gone OT now!

                                                 

                                                By the way Colorista would be the person who puts color into something, like coloring a B&W cartoon... Not the person in charge of Quality Control... It should be renamed Inspectorista... (I know silly attempt at humor).

                                                • 22. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                  All the cameras I use these days record a wonderful range of superwhites. This seems so stupid to me.

                                                   

                                                  I agree.  Let's get camera makers to stop going outside the legal limit and record proper signals within range.

                                                   

                                                  Seriously though, I was not aware of any changes in CS5.  Thanks Josh for the info.

                                                  • 23. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                                    5004sqdn Level 1

                                                    OK - since we are correcting the language abuses there is one

                                                    commonly used erroneous word that is abundant.

                                                     

                                                    'Your right' means on your right side or "To your right"

                                                     

                                                    'You're right' means you are correct

                                                     

                                                    People continuously misuse 'your' instead of 'you're' which essentially means you are.

                                                    • 24. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                                      Bill Engeler Level 2

                                                      I like Colorista 2, but it has a few problems with Premiere Pro.  First the good:

                                                       

                                                      Despite what has been said, it doesn't clip highlights (at least in CS5).  You do have to click maximum bit depth in the sequence settings, though.

                                                       

                                                      It provides quick access to a good-looking quick exposure correction.  The "pop" control is great - negative pop is extremely flattering to faces, and it's quick.

                                                       

                                                      It's less fiddly than Fast Color Correction or 3-way for a quick color fix, and also very powerful for serious work with lots of little corrections.

                                                       

                                                      I love the skin tone overlay, just to make sure my tired eyes aren't lying to me.

                                                       

                                                      HSL controls can be very useful.  I don't use them much, but you might.

                                                       

                                                      Now the not so good:

                                                       

                                                      The keying doesn't work with CS5.0.3.  The default setting, where it keys to flesh tones works, but the keying editor doesn't.  Red Giant says they will address this in an update.

                                                       

                                                      Making adjustments in the color wheels is not smooth in CS5.  Mousing, you don't always get what you expect.  It was much worse initially.  It's perfectly doable now if you don't move too fast, but it's not nearly as good as in After Effects.

                                                       

                                                      It does slow down export a bit, but not so much in my experience.  Other Red Giant tools; like many in Looks, will slow your export 4-5x.

                                                       

                                                      It causes a Premiere error notification with a red circle, which can be completely ignored, but is annoying.

                                                       

                                                      Keyframing is great for many settings(exposure, saturation, pop) , but there isn't any for color correction or keying.

                                                       

                                                      I still think it's a great tool.  You could do almost everything with the stock tools, but it's more efficient in Colorista.  - with a big exception now for keying, but I expect this to sorted soon.

                                                      • 25. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                                        lasvideo Level 4

                                                        Yes, not having the keying editor is a major loss.

                                                        • 26. Re: MB Colorista vs built in CC?
                                                          Keith Moreau Level 1

                                                          I think Stu of Red Giant said that the reason for the slugishness of the interface controls in Colorista II is that Premiere Pro uses a hobbled API for controls to 3rd party effects developers, and uses it's own private, faster API for it's own effects, wheras After Effects allows 3rd parties to access it's fast interface, and asked the public to tell Adobe to open it's private interface or speed up the 3rd party interface. I do notice it is really slugish, one reason why I might not use Colorista II if I can help it inside Premiere.

                                                           

                                                          I hear that in September there is going to be a full blown Color Correction tutorial on Lynda. I can't wait for somebody to explain in a systematic way how to get the most out of the built in cuda accellerated color correction in Premiere Pro. I've seen pretty much all the free tutorials on this to date and I can't say that they drill down enough or explain how to use the scopes along with the controls to get a good grade. For me, FInal Cut Pro's built in correction was so much easier to get a good grade out of, but I think it was because I learned from an abundance of great tutorials on it.