17 Replies Latest reply on May 16, 2012 4:35 PM by Wolfwoods

    Subclips in Red project

    eckelsteve1 Level 1

      I am cutting "Sucker," a feature film, in Premiere, shot on a Red Camera in 4K HD.  I have been editing for years on Avid, FCP, and many other systems, starting with film and a moviola.  I switched to Premiere for this film because of the incomparable R3D workflow, especially since I am dealing with a film with a lot of special effects, and being able to go in and out of AE is just to darn attractive.

      After about a 2 week learning curve, I am pretty happy with Premiere.  I sorely wish for some features from other systems, but I also find that Premiere has things that other don't, which I like.  On the whole, a workable way to cut a feature film.

       

      There is however, one feature lacking in Premiere that is vital in my opinion for a comprehensive Red/Premiere workflow.

       

      Since every Red film that I have worked with is shot with seperate picture and sound, part of the Red workflow includes syncing dailes.  No problem, stick all the clips in a timeline, sync up the sound, link the clips and rename them.  But I am unable to take the linked picture and sound and turn them into subclips.  I checked with Help and confirmed that this is not a supported feature.

      That means that I am condemned to cutting from a sync dailies timeline to a cut timeline, I cannot stick the clips in a bin and cut from there.  Overall, I don't mind too much, that is what I often do anyway.  But say for instance I have a piece of red video with no linked sound ( a reaction shot for example) that I have cut into my edit timeline, and I want to quickly match frame and see what other sync dialog is on that clip.  Even though on the timeline that clip has the take name and number name assigned to it by my assistant editor when syncing and linking, when I hit match frame, the name reverts to the original Red clip name, and there is no sync audio.  Bummer.  So now I have to find the dailies timeline for that scene, scroll through and find the shot I need.

      There are also times that I want to organize footage into bins instead of timelines, which is what most Avid editors do, and cut from the bin.

       

      So this is a long winded way of asking:  Any chance in the near future of being able to make subclips from sunk picture and track?

       

      Stephen Eckelberry

      Film Editor

        • 1. Re: Subclips in Red project
          sookoll Level 1

          Currently I use nested sequences as a workaround to this problem.

          Basically each take is a separate sequence with added/synced sound.

          And you treat them as clips and assemble your timeline with them.

          Drawback is that they dont show waveform at the timeline and (while using CS4) EDL didnt reference to right clipnames and I had to bring clips out of those nested sequences manually for the final timeline.

           

          IMHO that problem that you cant make subclips out of video+audio and the lack of audio timecode support are the biggest missing features of premiere when it comes to editing longer features/documentaries.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: Subclips in Red project
            Jim_Simon Level 8

            My own planned solution to this problem is to look past the old way of doing things and just record sound into the RED.

             

            Not much help for current projects, I admit.  But perhaps a good suggestion for future ones.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: Subclips in Red project
              eckelsteve1 Level 1

              Thanks guys, good to know that I am not the only one.  Getting sound on the Red is ideal, but may still not work for other reasons, such as multi-cam shoots, or steadicam shots.  And nested sequences are a problem, even if you are not doing an online, because nested sequences can be a problem when going in and out of AE.

              Maybe some sort of stand-alone application, similar to Adobe Soundbooth, (Adobe Telecine?) where sound can be added to exisiting clips, you hit save and presto there is your existing R3D clip with sound?  At the same time one could split stereo audio tracks into dual monos, adjust audio levels, add metadata, etc.

               

              I hope that this is fixed, would be a shame to have to go back to FCP once they play catch up to Premiere.

              • 4. Re: Subclips in Red project
                Tom Frisch

                Not only are Red projects affected by this, but since the VAST majority of DSLR shooters are running double system sound, we have the same problem too.

                 

                I've had some stability issues with nesting, and since there is no path to un-nest things, I've ended up just cutting from sequence to sequence.  It's really frustrating, because my normal workflow with single system sound is to use bins, and use Ppro's lovely search functions to find clips after subclipping out all my interviews.

                 

                Here's to hoping they add some subclip functionality.

                • 5. Re: Subclips in Red project
                  eckelsteve1 Level 1

                  I cut from sequence to sequence by choice, adapting techniques I used editing film on KEM editing machines, (KEM was German editing Equipment manufacturer)  We would prepare rolls for editing organized by scenes or sequences, and cut from source roll to edit rolls.  We called the source rolls KEM rolls.  If the dailies for a particular sequence where extensive, we would make KEM rolls for all the Wide shots, others KEM rolls for the close ups, inserts etc.

                   

                  I make KEM rolls in PrPro as well as FCP.  Unless the scene is huge, I put all the shots for a scene in one sequence, sunk together, linked and renamed to match the slate (scn 4-1, scn 4A-1 etc).  I make shortkeys in my keyboard customization - (M) for setting markers, and another (sift+M) for  going to next marker.  I add a marker after the director says 'action' for each shot.  Now, I can quickly go from shot to shot to compare takes by hitting shift+M.  If I want to go back, I have a shortkey for 'go to previous edit point' which takes me back to the beginning of the take.

                   

                  As progress with editing the scene I keep adding markers for each line or action I want to compare.  If for example, the dialog for scene 7 between Ben & Jerry is:

                  BEN:  You like ice cream?

                  JERRY:  Yes I do.

                  In my KEM roll for scene 7, I will make a marker before Ben says his line in the 3 takes of the master, 2 takes of the OS and 3 takes of the CU.  I hit Shift+M repeatedly so that I can hear the 8 ways that Ben says "You like ice cream?"  When I find the line reading I want, I mark in and out and then hit the Lift key (;) then, I hit shift+3 to switch from the scene 7 sequence to the edit timeline.  Then I select which tracks I want the video and dialog to be on (shortkeys for that as well) and I hit paste (control or command V, or shift+V for Insert Paste).  I sometimes chekerboard my edit, putting Ben's "You like ice cream" on video 1 and audio 1, and Jerry "Yes I do" on video 2 and audio 2, that way I can play with dialog overlaps.

                   

                  I then hit shift+3 to get back to the scene 7 and work on the next line.  By the end of the edit for the scene, the scene timeline is littered with markers and gaps where I lifted cuts.

                   

                  I also use the shortkeys for track selection in my KEM rolls in the source sequence to just select a line of dialog, or just select a reaction shot without dialog.  that way I am getting just what I need.

                  Shortkeys I set up for track selection:  control (Command on Mac)+1 (numeric pad) for video track 1, then control+2 for video 2 etc.  For audio, I use option+1 for audio  track 1, option+2 for audio 2 etc.

                  • 6. Re: Subclips in Red project
                    Tim Kolb Level 1

                    Dual system sound is a consideration that Adobe has been confronting in phases...

                     

                    At one point, the project manager would only trim the project based on what clips were on a timeline...  If you've synced all those clips in sequences like you've mentioned, they're ALL on a timeline...

                     

                    Now you can choose what sequence(s) you want to include and leave out of the trim at least.

                     

                    I suspect that syncing audio with a flattened media file (like DSLR) wouldn't be a tough feature to integrate, but I have no clue how the RED SDK works and I'd be curious if a "file" could actually be made from an R3D file and an audio clip, or if it would be a "permanent link" of some type...

                     

                    Definitely a needed feature in the software as it starts to get noticed by parts of the industry that have been dismissing it for the last series of years....

                     

                     

                    TimK

                    • 7. Re: Subclips in Red project
                      eckelsteve1 Level 1

                      " I'd be curious if a "file" could actually be made from an R3D file and  an audio clip, or if it would be a "permanent link" of some type..."

                       

                      I am sure it's possible, after all, currently, if you double click a linked file it opens in the source window and plays picture with audio.  a subclip isn't that much different.

                       

                      Even though I mostly cut seq to seq, I still need subclips for organization, and I do occassionally want to be able to edit from a bin.

                      • 8. Re: Subclips in Red project
                        Tim Kolb Level 1

                        Playing back two files is different from actually embedding the two together.

                         

                        Playing back two linked clips is just playing back two pieces of media.

                         

                        I was wondering if there would be a way to actually embed the audio...in RED Cine or something similar.

                        • 9. Re: Subclips in Red project
                          eckelsteve1 Level 1

                          I don't think so.  Red r3d is a read only codec.  I don't believe that subcliping in Avid or FCP actually embeds the audio into the video either.  It just virtually creates a married audio & video clip that looks and acts like a regular clip.

                          • 10. Re: Subclips in Red project
                            Huntrex Level 2

                            Have you filed a feature request?

                            • 11. Re: Subclips in Red project
                              eckelsteve1 Level 1

                              Sure have. I am sure that Adobe is listening...

                              • 12. Re: Subclips in Red project
                                Level 4

                                ---------------

                                As progress with editing the scene I keep adding markers for each  line or action I want to compare.  If for example, the dialog for scene 7  between Ben & Jerry is:

                                BEN:  You like ice cream?

                                JERRY:   Yes I do.

                                In my KEM roll for scene 7, I will make a marker before  Ben says his line in the 3 takes of the master, 2 takes of the OS and 3  takes of the CU.  I hit Shift+M repeatedly so that I can hear the 8  ways that Ben says "You like ice cream?"  When I find the line reading I  want, I mark in and out and then hit the Lift key (;) then, I hit  shift+3 to switch from the scene 7 sequence to the edit timeline.  Then I  select which tracks I want the video and dialog to be on (shortkeys for  that as well) and I hit paste (control or command V, or shift+V for  Insert Paste).  I sometimes chekerboard my edit, putting Ben's "You like  ice cream" on video 1 and audio 1, and Jerry "Yes I do" on video 2 and  audio 2, that way I can play with dialog overlaps.


                                ------------------

                                 

                                Steve, this post that describes your workflow to some extent...I found really helpful....for future reference I've saved it ....thanks a lot for this

                                 

                                I also ( even in Cs3 which I use ) was bummed out about getting stuff sync'd back to the project panel and into source monitor for editing but forget now exactly what it was that wasn't working like I wished it would...and ended up not having the control I really wanted...and subclips just seems like ( for scripted and slated stuff ) a pretty basic necessity.

                                 

                                Anyway, thanks for sharing your workflow, shortcut keys, and rationale for it...

                                 

                                Rod

                                • 13. Re: Subclips in Red project
                                  eckelsteve1 Level 1

                                  you are welcome.  I hope to make a video of this workflow, others have asked be about it.  I guess I will have to buy that software that record video of what's on the screen.

                                  • 14. Re: Subclips in Red project
                                    Paolo Tramannoni Level 1

                                    Hi, again on this issue, one year later. Do you know if this problem has been fixed in PP CS5 or CS5.5?

                                     

                                    UPDATE: It seems that the Merge Clips function, introduced with CS5.5, can solve it.

                                     

                                    Paolo

                                    • 15. Re: Subclips in Red project
                                      eckelsteve1 Level 1

                                      Now I have no excuse - I have to upgrade.

                                      • 16. Re: Subclips in Red project
                                        Powered by Design Level 4

                                        You can make screencasts free with Screenr if you want to share your workflow.

                                         

                                        http://www.screenr.com/

                                         

                                         

                                        There have been a few here that use it to show how to do things with Premiere.

                                         

                                         

                                        GLenn

                                        • 17. Re: Subclips in Red project
                                          Wolfwoods

                                          I know this is an old post but thought I would share my own recent discovery:

                                           

                                          Just got some R3D files for a project and was wondering the best way around the same audio syncing dilemma. In my searching I discovered you can now sync audio in RedCine-X. I know this doesn't solve the issue for other video formats, but it solves the R3D audio syncing issues if anyone else stumbles across this thread with the same issue.

                                           

                                          http://www.red.com/learn/workflow/audiosync

                                           

                                          -Caleb