31 Replies Latest reply on Jul 22, 2010 2:59 PM by the_wine_snob

    PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips

    Alooha

      Hello,

       

      PE 8 is incredibly and inacceptably slow when importing, and, generally, handling AVCHD clips.

      About importing: it seems to me that every clip is rendered before being imported.

      Is there a possibility to accelerate the operations or is PE 8 not the adequate software for working with AVCHD files?

       

      Thanks for all hints

       

      Best regards

       

      Alooha

        • 1. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
          the_wine_snob Level 9

          Alooha,

           

          AVCHD material is very, very CPU intense to work with.

           

          Can you give us the specs. of your computer, especially the CPU and the I/O sub-system, i.e. your HDD's, their size, speed, controller type, free space, and how you have those allocated?

           

          Most feel that only a very fast Quad-core, or fast i7, can edit AVCHD. A physical dual-Quad, or even a dual-i7 would be better. If you have a Duo-Core, it's likely as fast as you are going to get. AVCHD is very popular with consumers, but more so with salespeople, as they know that most buyers will be back soon to buy a new, powerful computer, just to edit that footage.

           

          Good luck,

           

          Hunt

          • 2. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
            John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            What hardware do you have?

             

            A link with many ideas about computer setup http://forums.adobe.com/thread/436215?tstart=0


            And even more hardware discussion http://forums.adobe.com/community/premiere/hardware_forum


            Including this post about 3 possible builds http://forums.adobe.com/thread/598040?tstart=0

             

            Harm on drive setup http://forums.adobe.com/thread/662972?tstart=0

            • 3. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
              Alooha Level 1

              Hi,

               

              Thank You for Your message.

              My computer is new

              Processor: AMD Phenom(tm) II X4 925 2,80 GHz

              HD: 1,5 TB, 1,21 TB free, 2 partitions: the maion partiotion and 40 Gb Recovery partition

               

              I don't really know where to find more information. f.i. about the HDD.

               

              Regards

               

              Alooha

              • 4. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                Only one hard drive is NOT enough to edit even SD (Standard Definiton) and is WAY not enough to edit HD

                 

                Go back to my previous link and read the hardware notes I posted... especially Harm's information on drive setup

                 

                You need to have AT LEAST one more hard drive, and two more is better

                 

                That is NOT A PARTITION on your existing drive... that is separate, physical hard drive(s)

                 

                Also... I do not know your CPU... is that a Quad Core?

                • 5. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                  That AMD does seem to be a Quad-Core, per this PAGE.

                   

                  The I/O is a big bottleneck, and the use of partiitions makes things worse. This ARTICLE will give you some tips.

                   

                  Good luck,

                   

                  Hunt

                  • 6. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                    Alooha Level 1

                    Hi,

                     

                    so my processor seems not to be so bad.

                    Thank You for the link.

                    The second drive, could it be a USB drive?

                    I've just purchased an Iomega Prestige 500GB USB 2.0.

                     

                    Best regards

                     

                    Alooha

                    • 7. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                      John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Again... go read the link for Harm's information

                       

                      I use USB for file backup, not for editing

                       

                      For editing you need an internal SATA drive or an external eSATA drive

                      • 8. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                        USB 2.0 connections are very slow, and because of the speed of PrE, you may encounter read/write errors, which are common when the OS and programs are so much faster, than the connection. When USB 2.0's first came out, I attempted to use them, but first, they were too slow for me, and I, as many hundreds, encountered the read/write errors, included the dreaded Delayed Write Failure.

                         

                        I then tried FW-400's, had no read/write errors or failures, but still found the connection to be too slow to edit. It was not until FW-800 came out, that I could use externals for more than just archiving. With eSATA and USB 3.0, there are now two newer, faster connections, so life has gotten better.

                         

                        I am still heavily invested in the FW-800's, so will continue with those, but my new workstation will also have eSATA and USB 3.0 connections for any new externals, that I purchase.

                         

                        As per Harm's article, a 2x internal HDD setup (or eSATA for the 2nd) is the absolute minimum, with a 3x setup being better. My workstation currently has a 6x internal HDD setup, but I do not have RAID for the media, or for Exports. That will change with the new computer, as I will be moving to HD by then.

                         

                        Even my laptop has a 3x 200GB SATA II I/O sub-system. I believe that 3x is the minimum for video editing, but many struggle by with a 2x system. Even with the 3x internals, I use the FW-800's for my Projects, Copies of the media and Scratch Disks, but I also migrate Projects from the laptop to the workstation. With this arrangement, I give up a little speed in editing (having my media on the same HDD), but it allows for complete migration.

                         

                        Good luck,

                         

                        Hunt

                        1 person found this helpful
                        • 9. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                          Alooha Level 1

                          Hi

                           

                          Thank You for all the interesting answers

                           

                          Bye

                           

                          Alooha.

                          • 10. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                            Well, some of us pride ourselves in "interesting answers... "

                             

                            Actually, all that we hope for is that they help a fellow-user.

                             

                            Happy Editing,

                             

                            Hunt

                            • 11. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                              Alooha Level 1

                              Hi,

                               

                              May an external SATA (eSATA) drive do the job?

                               

                              What do You think about the following:

                               

                              http://www.verbatim-europe.co.uk/en_1/product_3-5-external-hard-drive-esata--usb-combo-dri ve-1tb_14030.html

                               

                              It has also USB 2.0. and I may get it for 82 €.

                               

                              A supplementary question: how do You distribute the job over Your multitude of drives?

                               

                              Best regards

                               

                              Alooha

                              • 12. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                An eSATA external will be very near the performance of an internal SATA. Should work fine.

                                 

                                Good luck,

                                 

                                Hunt

                                 

                                [Edit] Missed the las:

                                 

                                C:\ OS, programs, part of Page File

                                D:\ Part of Page File

                                E:\ Project and Scratch Disks, plus Encore (authoring program) Project

                                F:\ Media

                                G:\ Export files

                                H:\ Stock Assets

                                I:\ Plextor multi-drive

                                J:\ LG multi-drive

                                K:\ Stock Audio Assets

                                L:\ through Z:\ externals, which will contain the Project/Scratch Disks and Asset Copies, when I migrate to my laptop

                                 

                                Message was edited by: Bill Hunt - Added Edit

                                • 13. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                  Alooha Level 1

                                  that sounds very professional!

                                   

                                  Which council would You give to me, a bloody amateur, for distributing the job of Premiere Elements 8 or a similar program over 2 or max. 3 drives?

                                   

                                  What about USB 3.0 that seems to be even faster than eSATA?

                                   

                                  Regards

                                   

                                  Alooha

                                  • 14. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                    For a 2x HDD setup, it would look like this:

                                    C:\OS, programs and Page File

                                    D:\Media, Projects and Scratch Disks

                                     

                                    Things get better with a 3x setup:

                                    C:\ OS, programs and probably Page File

                                    D:\ Media

                                    E:\ Projects and Scratch Disks

                                     

                                    The more that you can spread the I/O load over separate, physical HDD's, the better the performance.

                                     

                                    Good luck,

                                     

                                    Hunt

                                    • 15. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                      Alooha Level 1

                                      what do You mean by "Page File"?

                                       

                                      and what about USB 3.0?

                                      • 16. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                        John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Way back in my 1st answer I posted a link to Harm's advice for drive setup... did you click and read?

                                         

                                        The Windows page file is a temporary file that Windows uses to supplement the actual ram in the computer

                                         

                                        Having the page file on a drive other than where Windows and software is installed makes things a bit faster

                                        • 17. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                                          Windows uses a Page File for Virtual Memory, when one's system is using up all of the available RAM. With 64-bit OS's, and tons of physical RAM, say 12 - 24GB of RAM, it is less of an issue, than back in the old 32-bit days, when ~ 4GB was the limit and that was split a bit, depending on setup.

                                           

                                          Now, the Page File (Virtual Memory), can be setup to be managed by Windows, or set to a static size. For Video editing, I like the static, large Page File. This does a couple of things: as the Page File is written at boot up, a statically set Page File will be written to the same space on a HDD, and in the same size, so fragmentation is less of an issue. Also, the work load of managing the Page File is removed from the OS, so that it can do other things.

                                           

                                          For my 32-bit systems, I set the size of the Page File to about 2.5x my installed RAM, 4GB. On one system, I got better performance by splitting it between C:\ & D:\, while on my laptop, the best performance was with it located on E:\. In most systems, the difference in location will not be THAT big a deal, and most people just leave it on C:\, the default location.

                                           

                                          On 64-bit systems, especially with more RAM, wisdom holds that about 1 - 1.5x the installed RAM is more than adequate.

                                           

                                          For a little more background, this ARTICLE might be useful.

                                           

                                          Good luck, and hope that this helps,

                                           

                                          Hunt

                                          • 18. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                            Alooha Level 1

                                            Hi,

                                             

                                            I've finally decided to purchase a second internal HDD. I think that's the best (cheaper and faster) solution.

                                             

                                            Which are the technical characteristics it should respect to be suitable for Video editing?

                                             

                                            Thanks for all hints

                                             

                                            Best regards

                                             

                                            Alooha

                                            • 19. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                              Alooha Level 1

                                              Hi,

                                               

                                              I have found an WD disk: WD10EARS with 1 Tb, 64 MB cache, 7200 R/min. and 3Gb/s transmission rate

                                               

                                              Is that Ok or should the transmission rate be bigger (6Mb)?

                                               

                                              Thank You for responding.

                                               

                                              Regards Alooha

                                              • 20. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                The transmission rate should be fine. The limiting factor for HDD's of the same RPM and Cache will be the connection type. If one has the option of going SATA II, that would be the best, but if not, the throughput should still be a major improvement over using but a single physical HDD, and much better than a partitioned internal HDD.

                                                 

                                                Good luck,

                                                 

                                                Hunt

                                                • 21. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                  Wayne Tj

                                                  The best upgrade I made was to replace my 500 GB, 7200 RPM, platter drives with Crucial 256 GB SSD drives. Everything from OS boot time to video rendering time was cut in half.

                                                   

                                                  The second best upgrade was to switch from PE8 to Premier Pro CS5.

                                                  • 22. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                    the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                    Boot times will be improved, and by a pretty good margin. Some OS calls will also be quicker, but for Video editing, I would question the use of an SSD, beyond the boot drive - well, maybe a second unit for the Page File, but with a 64-bit OS and 16+ GB of RAM, the Page File is not used, as it once was in 32-bit OS's, or with less physical RAM.

                                                     

                                                    When SSD units are available in a 1TB size, and at a realistic $/GB price-point, then things will be different.

                                                     

                                                    Hunt

                                                     

                                                    PS - for about $800 (vs $770), one can get the Areca ARC-1120 and 4x Seagate Barracuda SATA II 1.5TB HDD's. These could be arranged as a stripped configuration of 1x.5TB, or 2x 3TB, depending on the level of RAID that one desired. For another $300, one could end up with 4x 3TB in RAID 0.

                                                    • 23. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                      Wayne Tj Level 1

                                                      But you are forgetting the fact that PE8 is a 32 bit application and can't make use of RAM above 2 GB. Hence, your OS Page File and PE8 scratch disk will see a great performance boost with those files being on a SSD drive.

                                                       

                                                      On another note, there is no need to have 1 TB SSD cards when you can store your media on cheaper platter drives. On the other hand, you could move all your projects media files to the SSB when editing, but that becomes harder to manage without scripting the move to and from the platter drives.

                                                      • 24. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                        the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                        But what you are forgetting is that Video editing is very I/O intensive. It is more than just the OS, the program and access to the media - much more.

                                                         

                                                        Those "cheaper platter drives" are where the real work is done, hence the lack of measurable improvement when using an SSD, just for the OS and programs.

                                                         

                                                        Like I said, boot times will greatly improve, as well as some OS functions. Unfortunately, Video editing is about a lot more, and that is where the improvements need to be made, to actually see a return on investment. With the exception of AVCHD, the greatest ROI is still RAID in a 0-factor.

                                                         

                                                        Hunt

                                                        • 25. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                          Wayne Tj Level 1

                                                          Wrong, SSD can greatly improve video editing performance if the OS page file is on the SSD drive, as well as PE8's scratch file, even if the media resides on spinning platter drives. Granted, you would see even better performance if you move the media that you are editing in your project to the SSD while working with it.

                                                           

                                                          I fail to understand why you say that RAID 0 has any impact on performance, in fact any RAID configuration can only decrease performance - all things being equal.

                                                           

                                                          Here's another PE8 performance fun fact..... whereas PE8 is a multi-threaded application, it does not make use of multi-core processors. The only CPU performance factor is it's clock speed.

                                                           

                                                          Having more memory that 2GB and multiple cores does nothing to improve the performance of PE8. On the other hand, if you use Premiere Pro CS5, it makes all the difference in the world.

                                                          • 26. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                            nealeh Level 5

                                                            WayneTj wrote:

                                                             

                                                            Here's another PE8 performance fun fact..... whereas PE8 is a multi-threaded application, it does not make use of multi-core processors. The only CPU performance factor is it's clock speed.

                                                             

                                                            Not so. During startup you can see PRE identify if it is a multi-core system. This discussion Q: How much processing power does PRE7 need to convert a video? shows that PRE makes full use of multi-core processors.

                                                             

                                                            Cheers,
                                                            --
                                                            Neale
                                                            Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

                                                            • 27. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                              You make a lot of statement that fly in the face of all benchmarks that I have seen. Other than assertions, can you please provide some links to these benchmarks?

                                                               

                                                              I fail to understand why you say that RAID 0 has any impact on performance, in fact any RAID configuration can only decrease performance - all things being equal.

                                                              I am not sure where you are getting your information, but it is totally wrong. With a RAID 0, one is writing to two separate physical HDD's, and the real time data transfer is greatly improved, as you have the controller splitting the duties over the two HDD's. Now, software RAID doesn't provide much, but as I have mentioned the Acera repeatedly, it should be clear to anyone, that I am referring to hardware RAID.

                                                               

                                                              Can you also furnish some benchmarks on the lack of performance of a hardware RAID 0?

                                                               

                                                              Here's another PE8 performance fun fact..... whereas PE8 is a multi-threaded application, it does not make use of multi-core processors. The only CPU performance factor is it's clock speed.

                                                              Now, I do not have PrE 8, but only the old-fashioned PrE 4, and it's amazing that it uses all four of my cores. Wonder how that happens?

                                                               

                                                              Also, with 4GB physical and the +3GB switch, I get far more RAM for my program, than I would with only 2GB RAM.

                                                               

                                                              Those benchmarks would be very helpful.

                                                               

                                                              Good luck,

                                                               

                                                              Hunt

                                                              • 28. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                                the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                You might want to take a look at this ARTICLE, as there is some useful info on RAID there.

                                                                 

                                                                Good luck,

                                                                 

                                                                Hunt

                                                                • 29. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                                  the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                  This spreadsheet will also prove useful, as you can map real-world performance of many different machines and configurations, to see how each compares.

                                                                   

                                                                  Note: the Benchmark is designed for PrPro, but uses common tests with real-world media, doing common operations. This one is for CS5, but there is a much larger one for CS4.

                                                                   

                                                                  Good luck,

                                                                   

                                                                  Hunt

                                                                   

                                                                  PS - might also be interesting to note that the top performer was built by the contributor, to who's articles I have linked to.

                                                                  • 30. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                                    Wayne Tj Level 1

                                                                    Look guys, if you don't believe me, call tech support, I'm only requrgentating what they told me.

                                                                    • 31. Re: PE 8 very slow when importing AVCHD clips
                                                                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                                                                      If you could just furnish some data on your assertions, then maybe people will look upon the suggestions in a more favorable light.

                                                                       

                                                                      Not sure that I would put much faith in Adobe T/S's recommendations, as they usually work from a script, "uninstall, then reinstall the program."

                                                                       

                                                                      Good luck,

                                                                       

                                                                      Hunt