18 Replies Latest reply: Jun 26, 2010 6:12 AM by able123 RSS

    Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink

    Editor Naama Community Member

      Hello all,

       

      Source: SD DV, VOB - DV

      Premiere CS4

       

      I have encountered this problem. I'm trying to export my project to an FLV file in many various settings. Everything was quite all right except some pan shots, shots with camera movements have some blinking horizontal lines, not too much but visible (I hope this is a good description). Those lines are not apparent in the source footage. Only after export.

       

      I've tried:

      all of the field options (deinterlace, remove flicker and all of the others), removing blending frames, different bit rates, frame size, frame size as a multiplication of 16, frame rate as source, 25 fps.

       

      I'm still about to try f4v, 2 pass and CBR...

      Perhaps if you add a slow motion effect, blur or anything else?

       

       

      Has anyone encountered this phenomena? Does anyone have a clue as to what the solution to this may be?

        • 1. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
          JSS1138 CommunityMVP

          I'm not even sure I understand the problem.  Can you post some footage?

          • 2. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
            Community Member

            Hi

             

            Maybe this is what's happening...

             

            Your source stuff is interlaced and your export is progressive.  In essence you lose half your horizontal resolution when you do that...as you are going from having two fields per saved frame to having one "field" or "frame"....

             

            The difference wouldn't be that noticeable when there is no motion cause the lost field in translation isn't going to be that noticeable when there's not a lot of movement ( action )...

             

            As the action increases ( this could be the camera moving or the talent (subject ) moving...amounts to the same thing..." movement "...sooo, when that happens in the export ( the way the codec interprets the frames )...you could get some ....

             

            1) artifacts

            2) flashing horizontal lines...which is basically the "missing" information" ..

             

            Normally your source video and your export video would be the same...for the best product

             

            If you half the size of your export file ( say from 720x480 to half the size ) and go progressive from interlaced you have a much better chance to not see any artifacts and missing information....

             

            It's actually a tribute to Premiere that it can complete this kind of export and deal with such disparate circumstances....

             

             

             

            Rod

            • 3. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
              Editor Naama Community Member

              Unfortunately I can't post footage. I'll try to describe it better:

               

              The lines are with no color and no dimension and they are only seen during playback. While pausing everything seems normal.

              There aren't many lines, only a few. maybe 2-3 on the whole screen. They are sort of blinking. They're not seen that badly but it does bother me.

               

               

              Some of the blinking occurs in front of computer screens, but others don't. Could it be caused by neon lights? But then again, they aren't seen on the source footage so that doesn't make sense.

               

               

              F4V didn't help.

               

              I have another idea, I will try to export it to avi before converting to flv, and see if that helps

              • 4. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                Editor Naama Community Member

                Hello,

                 

                Your explanation seems very logical! Thanks!

                 

                It does seem to explain why this is happening.

                 

                Now I still have to try and figure out how to solve it visually.

                • 5. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                  Editor Naama Community Member

                  Just for the record, I didn't find a solution and so I replaced the so called "problematic" footage.

                   

                  Some of the video players deinterlace while playing the video so it's possible to play interlace footage on a computer as well, depending on the player. But I guess that's not the case with flash. I even tried to export a progressive AVI to FLV and guess what, the lines returned!

                   

                   

                  Remember, if you use interlaced DV and you plan on exporting it to flash - Be gentle with your camera movements!

                  • 6. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                    Bill Hunt CommunityMVP

                    The visual problem, if I understand correctly, is very likely related to your source footage. A DVD-Video (VOB) is compressed to MPEG-2. When you Import that already compressed footage, it is internally converted to full I-frame from GOP. Motion, either camera, or subject, will likely be compromised.

                     

                    If at all possible, you should go back to before the MPEG-2 compression. Otherwise, those motion artifacts are likely to be part of any Export. You might be able to find an Export that minimizes this problem, but it is very likely to be part of the MPEG-2 encoding at the authoring stage of your DVD-Video.

                     

                    Sorry for the bad news, and good luck,

                     

                    Hunt

                    • 7. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                      Bill Hunt CommunityMVP
                      Remember, if you use interlaced DV and you plan on exporting it to flash - Be gentle with your camera movements!

                       

                      AND, your subject movement, especially across the lens' axis.

                       

                      Good luck, and glad that you got things handled,

                       

                      Hunt

                      • 8. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                        Editor Naama Community Member

                        Actually it happened the same in the VOB footage as it did in the DV footage.

                         

                         

                        I wish all computer video players could play interlace and deinterlace according to the footage. Inside premiere there's no problem. After exporting to avi format, it depends on the video player. I need it in flash so I had no choice and edited it a bit differently.

                         

                        Thanks for responding!

                        • 9. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                          Bill Hunt CommunityMVP

                          Editor Naama,

                           

                          Just so that I am clear on your issue, I am going to restate what I think you are experiencing, your workflow, and where you are seeing the image degradation:

                           

                          1.) You have a DV-AVI source, and it has been Transcoded to MPEG-2 and authored to a DV-Video, hence the VOB

                          2.) You have Imported the VOB into PrPro and then have image degradation, when you Export that edited footage to FLV

                          3.) You have gone back to the original DV-AVI footage and Imported that (with no MPEG-2 Transcoding) into PrPro, but still have degradation, when Exported to FLV. Both sources, the original DV-AVI and the VOB (MPEG-2) each show the same issue.

                           

                          Is the above correct, or have I gotten things twisted in my feeble mind?

                           

                          Did that original DV-AVI material come for Capture of miniDV tape source material? If so, and it shows motion artifacts, then there is likely an issue in-camera, or the motion is quite fast and across the axis (a fast pan would qualify, as would a subject running across the lens axis, especially if close to the camera). Some cameras are better equipped to capture off-axis motion, than others.

                           

                          Good luck, and please let me know if I am way offbase there.

                           

                          Hunt

                          • 10. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                            Editor Naama Community Member

                            Hello Bill,

                             

                            Well, sort of. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough.

                             

                            I'm using footage from two sources:

                             

                            1. DV  captured from a mini DV camera

                            2. VOB. I don't have the source. I believe it was probably also shot via a mini DV.

                             

                            I exported my sequence which includes both kinds of sources. Those lines appeared in both sources after exporting them through premiere to a Flash format. In premiere, nothing was noticeable.

                             

                             

                            As a test I also exported my project sequence as a DV AVI. Seeing those lines was dependant on the media player used. With windows media player, no problem was apparent.

                             

                             

                            I believe it is a problem of interlaced footage being exported into a progressive file and not being able to handle fast horizontal movement. Yes, I think it is mostly noticeable in movements closer to the camera.

                             

                            By the way, how do you know if a camera is, as you say, more equipped to capture fast motion across the axis?

                             

                            Thank you for following the subject. 

                            • 11. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                              Community Member

                              Hi,

                               

                              Oddly enough...you can't really depend on the media player you view your output on your computer to represent what will see when you finally get your video to its delivery format.

                              For example. I recently made a video edit of DV AVI type 2 and exported for DVD. I was watching the output file ( from my hard drive...not a DVD ) before burning the DVD to see how it looked.  It looked terrible...lots of horizontal lines and stuff....BUT ...this depended on whether I watched it on Quicktime or Classic Media Player or Windows Media player and so on....  some looked better than others.

                               

                              When I got help here from everyone I just went ahead and burned the DVD ...and then played that on my DVD player and it looked great.

                               

                              I was very amazed...and even commented, " Soooo, basically if I export to my computer to see what it looks like I might as well put my hands over my eyes and not look....cause it has no bearing on what the final output will be ( final product ....DVD, web, YouTube...all that ) ...

                               

                              Unfortunately this is the way it is ....so go through your whole process and see what it looks like as the FINAL product....

                              know what I mean?  Different players on your computer will show it in very different ways...weird but true.

                               

                               

                               

                              Rod

                              • 12. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                                Bill Hunt CommunityMVP

                                As for the camera, there are a couple of things that can help: the effective shutter angle, the sensor design, the FPS and the processing of the captured images. Probably some that I am missing some important attribute, but someone will add that/those. With formats that involve heavy compression, the motion artifacts will be more readily obvious.

                                 

                                Good luck,

                                 

                                Hunt

                                • 13. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                                  Bill Hunt CommunityMVP

                                  For most formats/CODEC's, I find QT to be a poor choice. I will usually rely on MediaPlayer Classic HC, or VLC Player in most cases. QT Player does a better job with MOV and with MP4's, but can have issues missing flags with H.264 MP4's. The Pro version does not improve things, so far as I can tell.

                                   

                                  Hunt

                                  • 14. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                                    Editor Naama Community Member

                                    Yea, that's true.But I think dividing it into two main types: interlace - for TV  and progressive for computers, makes it easier.

                                     

                                     

                                    I assume you had a problem with viewing interlace footage on your computer as well, and only after watching it on TV, you could have actually seen it properly.

                                    A good way to check footage for an interlace TV screen, is to transfer it to a disk-on-key and then view it through your DVD player. That way you can check it before burning the DVD.

                                     

                                    I also think VLC player is pretty good and that quick time is mostly useful for mov files. In this case with the flash, I was using the adobe media player which I find quite alright (except for a weird problem with the update that freaks my computer out, so I don't update it.) .

                                    • 15. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                                      Editor Naama Community Member

                                      I'll look it up on the internet, thanks for the info.

                                       

                                      I assume mini DV is considered heavy compression...

                                      • 16. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                                        Community Member

                                        --------

                                        I assume mini DV is considered heavy compression..

                                        ---------

                                         

                                        No...mini DV tape is kinda popular for recording both SD and HD in some cameras...

                                        and lets say you are shooting 720x480i 29.97 fps, 4:3 NTSC video with that camera, you would capture to premiere as AVI type 2 ...like normal NTSC SD video...not heavily compressed at all...  it is about 12-13 gigabytes per hour of mini DV tape ( I keep forgetting exact number) when captured as AVI type 2.

                                         

                                        The VOB however is from a DVD with only 4.7 gig capacity of entire disk and VOB files have size limits ...way less than 4.7 gig...so THEY are very heavily compressed.

                                         

                                        Is that what you meant...I'm having a coffee and waking up...so maybe I'm too woozy to be in this forum right now...

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        Rod

                                        • 17. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                                          Editor Naama Community Member

                                          I use mini DV as well. It is compressed. Perhaps not heavily.

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                          Off topic: Why do you always sign with a plain smiley? It seems sad

                                          • 18. Re: Exporting SD DV  to FLV - pan has horizontal blink
                                            Community Member

                                            heh...that was sweet.

                                             

                                            I don't know...

                                            Years ago I was asked by a psychiatrist to write about my youth. Next week I gave her an essay that went like this, " Rod was born in Whitestone, NY in the year..blah blah... When he was 5 years old he discovered ...blah blah "

                                            She asked, " Why did you write this in the 3rd person ?"

                                             

                                            Just to make it more interesting...why not ?

                                             

                                            But this smiley thing has been just a kind of "signature"...  no reason really.

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                            Rod