4 Replies Latest reply: Aug 17, 2010 4:31 PM by Lars Borg RSS

    Participating in the CinemaDNG Initiative

    Lars Borg Community Member

      Over fifty companies are now participating in the CinemaDNG Initiative. Most recently we met at NAB 2010.

       

      Adobe continues to engage partners to join the CinemaDNG Initiative.

       

      Critical for the success of the CinemaDNG Initiative is the active participation of the members of the digital cinema community.

       

      If you are interested in participating in the CinemaDNG Initiative or developing products conforming to the specifications, please reply to this post or send me a private message.


      Thanks,

       

      Lars Borg

      Principal Scientist

      Adobe Systems

        • 1. Re: Participating in the CinemaDNG Initiative
          Light Illusion Community Member

          Hi Lars,

           

          I think we communicated a long time back when I first started working with LUT formats for the film industry. My company was then called Digital Praxis - it's now Light Illusion.

           

          At that time you suggest looking at a way to convert LUTs to ICC profiles...

           

          Well, it's taken some time, but we have the first beta version of SpaceMan ICC working, and the first ICC profiles converted from 3D LUT in use at an Australian post facility on a rather large film project...

           

          What we do need is some help with the various ICC formats - at the moment we are making input profiles for use in Photoshop, but we are not sure this is the best approach.

           

          Hopefully, the ability to convert LUT to ICC profiles is somehting Adobe users will appreciate

           

          And hopefull there will be benefits for CinemaDNG...

           

          Please drop me a line when you get a chance.

           

          Regards,

           

          Steve

           

           

          Steve Shaw
          LIGHT ILLUSION
          steve@lightillusion.com
          UK: +44 (0)7765 400 908
          www.lightillusion.com
          Skype: shaw.clan

          LUTs, CUBEs + GAMMA CURVEs

          • 2. Re: Participating in the CinemaDNG Initiative
            Lars Borg Community Member

            Steve,

             

            Well, that was 4 years ago!

             

            This is probably the wrong forum for this, but - since then Tim Roth

            now has code for converting some LUT formats to ICC device link

            profiles, not input profiles.

             

            Why device link profiles you may ask:

             

            - Most LUTs in movie production are used to convert from one device

            encoding (DCI P3, DPX, Cineon, Rec 709, ...) to another (for device

            conversion) or to same (for applying a look). This is how the movie

            guys have worked for many years, and it fits the ICC device link

            model.

             

            - On the other hand, all input and output ICC profiles convert from a

            device encoding to a reference color space or the inverse direction,

            not to  or from another device encoding. This is how the graphic arts

            industry has worked for 15 years, and this is a more robust way to

            chain color conversions.

             

            There are challenges with using even the highest quality LUTs and

            device links when you do multiple conversions.

             

            - If you use LUTs or ICC device link profiles to convert from DPX to

            DCI P3 to Rec 709, versus directly DPX to Rec 709, you may get

            different results, as the LUTs | device links lack a reference

            towards which to calibrate them.

             

            - If you use input and output ICC profiles to convert from DPX to DCI

            P3 to Rec 709, versus directly DPX to Rec 709, you get practically

            the same results, because every conversion goes through the reference

            color space, (and the inverse transform should be an accurate inverse

            of the forward transform, for in-gamut colors)

             

            But you knew all that , right?

             

            On using input profiles:

            Yes, it's a good approach for film, and that's how we sometimes

            support DPX-encoded camera film.

            But what is the goal with your workflow?

             

            For print film simulation, we actually create output profiles.

            These can be used in two ways:

            1. Converting digital camera input to DPX.

            2.  previewing the theater look of DPX files.

             

            Here's the transform sequence for these cases:

             

            1. Digital camera RGB -> Digital camera input profile (A) -> ICC ref

            space (R1) -> DPX camera film profile (B1) -> DPX RGB

            2. DPX RGB -> DPX film print path simulation (B2) -> ICC ref space

            (R2) -> ICC Display profile -> Desktop monitor

             

            Profile A can be a pure input profile, or an invertible profile for

            alternate use as B2 (which makes it an output profile).

            When Digital camera RGB is in OpenEXR format (float), the Digital

            camera input profile (A)  lacks gamma decoding,

            The B1 transform above is an output (profile) transform.

            Output profiles can be used in the inverse direction for input

            transforms (A) or more often for preview transforms (B2).

            In some cases we combine B1 and B2 into a single (output) profile.

            Profiles B1 and B2 can also be two separate profiles.

            The R1 reference colors are very different from the R2 values in this

            case. R1 encodes scene colorimetry, and R2 is theater colorimetry,

            both @ 5000K.

            R1 is ideal for photo-realistic compositing, but you need R2 for previewing.

            You can combine sequences 1 and 2 into a single transform sequence.

            This is how we do soft-proofing in Photoshop.

                        Digital camera RGB -> A -> R1 -> B1 -> DPX RGB -> B2

            -> R2 -> Display profile -> Desktop monitor

             

            In general, in a LUT the transforms A and B1 have been combined into

            one (device link) transform bypassing R1.

            In order to use such LUT as an input ICC profile, the ICC profile has

            to be a combination of the LUT (dev1->dev2) + B2 (dev2->ICC ref

            space).

            If dev2 is well known (and not film) it should be fairly easy to

            create a dev2->ICC ref space transform.

            B2 needs to be made for same color temp or white balance as the temp

            or white on the output side of the LUT.

             

            Hopefully this helps.

             

            Lars

            • 3. Re: Participating in the CinemaDNG Initiative
              Light Illusion Community Member

              Hi Lars,

              Cripes, was it really 4 years back!
              How time flies!

              Sorry about the wrong forum, but I lost your contact details...

               

              Where is a better place/way to contnue the dialogue?

              Would love to see Tim's code too.

               

              Steve

               

              Steve Shaw
              LIGHT ILLUSION
              steve@lightillusion.com
              UK: +44 (0)7765 400 908
              www.lightillusion.com
              Skype: shaw.clan

              LUTs, CUBEs + GAMMA CURVEs

              • 4. Re: Participating in the CinemaDNG Initiative
                Lars Borg Community Member

                Tim's code is in After Effects CS 5

                 

                Lars