19 Replies Latest reply on Jul 9, 2010 9:55 AM by eckelsteve1

    Tapeless 2k movie workflow?

    Kuky01 Level 1

      I have the following problem:

       

      - I'm shooting timelapses with Canon DSLR cameras. My timelapses end up as 2K DPX sequences after doing VFX work in AE, because delivery needs to be for teathrical release (cinema).

      - So basically I need to import DPX sequences into Premiere and begin to edit them. In the end I will export the final result as a DPX sequence and sound will go separately to the sound studio.

       

      Problem is:

      a) DPX sequences don't play in realtime in Premiere

      b) to my biggest surprise Premiere does not suport proxy workflows...

       

      Has anybody come up with a solution to this problem or something similar?

       

      Thank you,

      Cristian

        • 1. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          My only thought here is to take a hint from the name (After Effects) and do your editing first to the originals, then apply effects.

          • 2. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
            Kuky01 Level 1

            Hi,

             

            Unfortunately the problem remains absolutely the same, even if I do vfx work after the edit:

               - How do I edit 2k DPX sequences in PrePro and finish in 2k, when this kind of media does not play realtime on this platform & proxy workflow is not supported ??

             

            PS. VFX is done usually after the edit, but in my case this will mean mostly CC and I want also to have full shots to play if needed. My type work is similar to what u can find on timescapes.org

             

            Thank you,

            Cristian

            • 3. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
              shooternz Level 6

              I dont see how the problem is the same!

               

              What are the files coming from your DSLR?  (surely not DPX)

               

              Why not edit them first in PPRO (or whatever) then take them to AEFX? 

               

              Why would you not have the full shots to play with in the edit if you do this workflow?

              • 4. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                Jim_Simon Level 8
                How do I edit 2k DPX sequences in PrePro

                 

                That is the original question.  My suggestion was not to.  Edit the origianl DSLR stills, then send that to AE for effects work.

                • 5. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                  Kuky01 Level 1

                  Okay, I wasn't very precise.

                   

                  Let' forget about VFX work. There is no VFX work involved. Just shots that have to be edited.

                  Let's forget about DSLR cameras. Let's presume that DPX sequences come from CG work. And they don't have to be touched by VFX artists. It's a straight edit.

                   

                  I have 100 shots, as 2K DPX sequences.

                   

                  How do I edit them in Premiere Pro AND FINISH in 2K ?

                   

                  The same problem is explained here, but for the AVID platform:

                  http://www.avid.com/static/resources/documents/solutions/DI_Workflow.pdf

                   

                  Thank you,

                  Cristian

                  • 6. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                    eckelsteve1 Level 1

                    I have had no problem editing DPX sequences in real time in CS5 Premiere.  I have a fairly fast but not the fastest mac computer, and was doing it with 8 gig ram, 1.5 of which Premiere was saving for other programs.  Perhaps it's the timeline you are using?   Try maybe one of the red timelines, and nest your images sequences to make them act like clips.

                    • 7. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                      I have 100 shots, as 2K DPX sequences.

                       

                      But do you really?  As original media from your camera?

                       

                      I ask because quite frankly, I don't know how to work with DPX media in Premiere.  Which is why I suggest an alternate route.

                       

                      Edit the original DSLR stills first, then bring that edited sequence into AE for effects, and export that as your DPX.

                      • 8. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                        shooternz Level 6

                        He is saying that he already has these clips (files) as DPX

                         

                        He needs to edit them.

                         

                        Stephen E.  is telling him that it should not be a problem in a RED timeline.

                         

                        I would love to get a (small) sample DPX file if anyone can put one up somewhere.  My system is handling 4k RED (RD3)  files  easily but I would like to checkout the DPX intermediate workflow  as well.

                        • 9. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                          Kuky01 Level 1

                          Please find at the following link a 75 frames seq - 2K DPX 1:1.77

                          http://www.lightdimension.ro/dpx/DPX_Seq.rar

                           

                          Could not play them in a RED Timeline.

                           

                          Thank you, Cristian

                          • 10. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                            Colin Brougham Level 6

                            I just downloaded and tested your DPX sequence. It seems to work OK here, even on my underpowered laptop if I use fractional playback. However, they don't seem to work well in a RED sequence; after I imported the DPX files as a still image sequence, I just dragged the resultant clip to the New Sequence icon and a Desktop mode sequence was created with a yellow line.

                             

                            One thing that might be the problem (and I really don't know this for sure as I don't work with DSLRs or DPX files), but the DPX files are a weird dimension--they're 2048x1157. The RED 2K 16x9 preset uses a dimension of 2048x1152, so this might be the cause of the problem. I'm curious as to how your DPX files ended up at those dimensions; I would guess that no DSLR shoots at those pixel dimensions. The Desktop mode sequence, which is created as 2048x1157, seems to work OK.

                            • 11. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                              eckelsteve1 Level 1

                              Red seems to be the highest quality codec to edit with in PrPRo.  As I have just discovered however, you can't write to R3D files, only read.  You can export from R3D files to dpx files, which makes editing on the red timeline nearly lossless.  Her is a possible workflow idea, a little cumbersome, but may work, assuming that you are not doing anything complicated:

                               

                              make a bunch of timelines using the approriate Red sequence settings.  call each one something simple like reel01 etc.  Export each one to some managable format like DV or DVCPRO HD.  Each timeline becomes in effect a clip.  When you are done editing, make an edl and manually conform the cuts on a Red timeline, using the Red sequences as nested clips.

                               

                              The other way to go would be to export your DPX files out of PrPro to something like Apple ProRes HQ, creating a custom quicktime setting.  Now you have a high quality bunch of clips in something managable.  You then make some DV files to edit with, export an EDL and relink to your prores files.  There would be some loss of quality going from DPX to Prores, but hardly any to worry about.  Almost every Doc and many features that makes it to Sundance are Prores to HD or film outputs.

                              • 12. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                                Jim_Simon Level 8

                                He is saying that he already has these clips (files) as DPX

                                 

                                He needs to edit them.

                                 

                                I got that.  I'm saying if it won't work, he should abandon the effects work he has already done, go back to the original media, edit that, and then redo the effects after he edits (which is the more common work flow anyway).

                                • 13. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                                  eckelsteve1 Level 1

                                  I tend to agree, it would make everything a little simpler.

                                  • 14. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                                    Kuky01 Level 1

                                    @Colin Brougham

                                     

                                    Huh, don't know what to say. My system can play 4k RED files (playback resolution at 1/4) realtime. But will not play 2k dpx sequences from disk in realtime (even at 1/8 playback resolution).

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                    @Stephen Eckelberry

                                     

                                    "I have had no problem editing DPX sequences in real time in CS5 Premiere"


                                    What's your sistem specs? The only way I was able to play realtime 2k DPX Sequences directly from disk was to put them on a Terrablock 24D raid through fiber and using IRIDAS DDS player. But that monster can play 4k uncompressed sequences without a hitch. Anyway I don't think that Adobe thinks that customers buy Premiere for 1000 USD and then buy a 20,000 EUROS raid to use for 2k work. Normally it's supposed to edit 2k sequences on a laptop through the use of .... PROXIES.

                                     

                                    R3D is a camera raw format, it's what the sensor sees (similar to CR2 format for Canon). So u cannot write to R3D format, unless u are the sensor

                                     

                                    It seems that Apple doesn't like Windows platform () and doesn't provide a ProRes 422 encoder for Windows. So, bye-bye ProRes workflow.

                                     

                                    I know I can conform manually (a.k.a by hand) every clip, but we are in 2010 and that's what I'm trying to avoid. Everybody can do it:

                                     

                                    AVID platform:

                                    Metafuze - Media Composer (DNxHD proxy) - Avid DS for conforming.

                                    http://www.avid.com/static/resources/documents/solutions/DI_Workflow.pdf

                                    But I don't have access to an Avid DS

                                     

                                    FCP platform:

                                    They use Prores proxy and ProRes 4444 for finising.

                                    http://www.apple.com/finalcutstudio/finalcutpro/digital-cinema-workflows.html

                                    But I don't like macs and I will not buy one.

                                     

                                    AUTODESK platform:

                                    SMOKE by definition is an online finishing system.

                                    I can go to my last workplace and they will let me use it for free during the night. Hell, I worked there for 10 very long years as head of postprod. But I hate to loose soo many nights.

                                     

                                    ADOBE platform:

                                    Well it appears to me that they support it only if it's originated from a RED camera.

                                    • 15. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                                      eckelsteve1 Level 1

                                      I went back and looked at the DPX sequence that I thought played (a main title seq), and in fact, it did not play well. I remember now that what I did was take the DPX and make animation QTs, and import them back in, which did work.  So sorry, I misled you.

                                       

                                      I am working in Red HD4k sequences, 3840x2160.  I have a mac, 2x2.26Ghz Quad core intel Xeon with 12 gigs of ram and a NVIDA GTX285.  And I am using eSATA drives, which play the R3D files well for the most part.

                                       

                                      Yeah, Quicktime on windows is a *****.  I have worked so long on Macs, that my whole thinking for hirez footage is Quicktime.  I look at the presets for PrPro, and outside of Red, nothing seems that appetizing for high-quality sequences, especially if you want to go to film.  Have you checked the QT settings on your windows AE?  You might be able to convert your footage to Prores there, or at least QT uncompressed, which Windows should read, then make proxies from that.

                                       

                                      I know of post-houses in LA that store their original film scans in Cineon/DPX, output clips for editors in DVCPRO-HD or Avid, then have some way of conforming EDLs back to their DPX image sequences.  But that doesn't help you much.

                                      • 16. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                                        Normally it's supposed to edit 2k sequences on a laptop through the use of .... PROXIES.

                                         

                                        Adobe has never really adopted the proxy method, instead choosing to support a format only when Premiere can handle it natively.  No proxy, no conversion.  Since Premiere doesn't really have any DPX modes (unless this changed in CS5), but After Effects does, I'm still championing putting the DPX files on the scrap heap, edit the originals, and THEN add effects.

                                        • 17. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                                          Jim_Simon Level 8
                                          I look at the presets for PrPro, and outside of Red, nothing seems that appetizing for high-quality sequences

                                           

                                          Presets are for common settings.  One can always make a custom sequence.

                                          • 18. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                                            rejdmast1 Level 2

                                            I took the download sequence and put it into PP CS5.  I let PP decide the sequence

                                            setting by dropping the sequence onto the new item sequence setting icon.

                                             

                                            The .dpx files play realtime with a yellow bar at full resolutionon on my system. (Dual quad core / 32 GB ram, no graphics acceleration).

                                             

                                            The .dpx files are close to 10MB per frame so you are going to need hard drives that can

                                            read at about 300MB/sec.

                                             

                                            How fast are your hard drives?

                                             

                                            You can speed up the playback by setting the playback resolution to less than full.

                                             

                                            Rendering is still a fact of life no matter what all the marketing hype says.  If you want quality,

                                            plan for rendering.

                                             

                                            Let us know how you make out.

                                            • 19. Re: Tapeless 2k movie workflow?
                                              eckelsteve1 Level 1

                                              "new item sequence setting icon"  Dude!  I didn't know about that feature.  Very handy.  put it to use right away.