24 Replies Latest reply on Jul 25, 2010 7:57 PM by d4digital Branched from an earlier discussion.

    Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5

    d4digital

      Hi Harm,

       

      I hope it is appropriate to reply to this post. It seemed as good as any in this thread. I have read your posts for years and learn't a great deal from you - you seem to have a great deal of experience in this area. I'm having several rather strange issues with CS5, MPE, the GTX480, playback and artefacts which I am trusting you may be able to assist with. I think that this conversation might help others too as it bring together a lot of information. I'm more than happy to provide additional info but here is some basics to get us started. I will be as brief as I can.

       

      The rig: Windows 7 64-Bit, ASUS P5Q Pro, 8GB RAM, Intel Q9650 Core 2 Quad 3.0GHz (OC'd at 3.51 GHz), Gigabyte GTX480 PSU (Core voltage up to 1125mV, Core clock OC'd to 730MHz), Corsair HX 850W PSU, 7TB Enterprise RAID 5 array (avg@700MB/sec W/R), Dell 30" and Dell 2408 for monitoring.

       

      The CPU is watercooled and hums along between 20c - 26c degrees depending on load and the GPU is surprisingly cool even with the two monitors idling at around 60c and about 75c under heavy loads. So all is well and certainly powerful enough for HDV video editing I assume. My drivers are up to date and I have been running between the 257.21 series and 258.69 and 258.96 beta versions and am currently on the latter but am oscillating between them to test what works. All produce the same results. I have used driver sweeper and the usual processes for these tweaks.

       

      I have been using CS4 for around a year editing HDV for documentary and corporate work and was previously using an 8800GTS @ stock clocks with a lesser 650W PSU. Playback was always smooth as silk and I had very few issues with PPro or AE for that matter. Sure rendering and encoding took a while but that was CS4!

       

      So after upgrading amid the hype of CS5 and MPE, I moved perhaps too quickly to the GTX480 and applied the 'Hack' with the possibly incorrect assumption that we would see full Adobe support for these cards soon. I expected some instability/issues but am always up for new tech. I have worked in IT and media for 20 years, built all my machines for years and am technically proficient. But this issue has me stumped.

       

      GPUSniffer:

       

      C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Pro CS5>GPUSniffer.exe -k
      Device: 0000000000304208 has video RAM(MB): 1536
      Vendor string:    NVIDIA Corporation
      Renderer string:  GeForce GTX 480/PCI/SSE2
      Version string:   3.0.0

       

      OpenGL version as determined by Extensionator...
      OpenGL Version 3.0
      Supports shaders!
      Supports BGRA -> BGRA Shader
      Supports VUYA Shader -> BGRA
      Supports UYVY/YUYV ->BGRA Shader
      Supports YUV 4:2:0 -> BGRA Shader
      Testing for CUDA support...
         Found 1 devices supporting CUDA.
         CUDA Device # 0 properties -
         CUDA device details:
            Name: GeForce GTX 480      Compute capability: 2.0
            Total Video Memory: 1503MB
         CUDA driver version: 3010
      CUDA Device # 0 supported.
      Completed shader test!
      Internal return value: 7

       

      The problem: Instead of better performance, everything has gone the opposite direction. I am experiencing intermittent playback and artefacts on some moving footage, the occasional hang/crash and one or two BSOD's, but quite rarely. Encoding flies however, what would normally take 1 hour to encode now takes 10 mins when direct from PPro and not the Media Encoder, which is amazing but not so useful in the edit when playback has degradated. Things playout but to my editing eye, I can see what looks like stuttering. In fact watching the playback head, it appears to be flashing when passing over some sequences and the result looks like drop frames. I'm in Sydney, OZ, so in PAL land and am acquiring and editing in 1440x1080/25p (SONY HVR-Z7P). It's all progressive, not interlaced for 99% of my footage. On top of this a test burn of MPEG2 DVD (widescreen PAL) produced jumps at every edit point when viewing on a plasma screen. WTF? Not only that, but it looked awful - colour was desaturated and there was a distinct drop in the red channel.

       

      In addition, I am also seeing what looks like pixelation on some pans and tilts and god forbid what appears to be interlacing on complex lighting such as neon signs for example. People passing the camera up close in shot also seem to pixelate badly. None of this has ever ocurred before. Also, applying a simple so-called 'accelerated effect' such as Dip to Black or Cross dissolve brings the red render bar immediately. The type of improvements shown in this Adobe video http://tv.adobe.com/watch/learn-premiere-pro-cs5/gpuaccelerated-effect-performance-enhance ments/ appear to simply not apply in many cases. Other accelerated effects work fine and some non-accelerated effects seem to have improved! Another whacky thing is that if I do import an interlaced clip from say, a handycam from one of my Operator's 2nd unit cutaways and interpret footage and scale to frame size to bring it in, then apply 'Always deinterlace', apprently nothing happens. The footage looks exactly the same whereas in CS4 an immediate change was apparent to the interlacing.


      Changes: The only change to the traditional setup I had with CS4 apart from hardware upgrades was movng the CS5 DB and cache to the RAID array as it was previously on the boot drive (tut tut I know, but it never affected performance. Go figure?). New projects re-indexed after this move and the timeline went green and all looked good. Until I started playback. That is when I really noticed things going wrong and still suspect the media cache and DB have something to do with this. Indexing is OFF on the array as well, as I know that it can cause performance hits as WIN hammers the drives constantly for info.

       

      Now, I rarely have more than 3 layers of video including supers, so I am not pushing it. To make things even stranger, sometimes playback seems ok for a while but soon returns to this jerky, stuttering motion. As PPro has no fps monitor (ADOBE - new feature request please for 5.1.1) it's hard to tell what is coming out and I don't really want to install FRAPS to check.

       

      Ghost in the Machine: What's going on Harm? Any idea's? What I am missing? Things seem unpredictable. It's killing me and my business. I realise the card is unsupported but I'm reading alot about people applying the hack and getting great results. Including yourself I believe with the 480.

       

      Thoughts:

       

      - Nvidia driver support in 358 series problem

      - Bad card

      - Tweaks/config in NTune wrong

      - Adobe GTX480 support

      - Background services vs. Programs - what's better?

      - Some crazy setting in PPro I have wrong but can't find

      - PhysX playing havoc with something

      - HDMI out vs. DVI

      - The flickering playhead is a giveaway - but what does it mean other than it is struggling? Why would this build struggle? This machine should be in the basement at CERN!

      - The media cache and DB are corrupted or shouldn't be on the RAID (can move to a Raptor if needed).

      - The array and boot drive need a defrag

      - A big possibility might be rebuilding the current project from scratch. I have done the open new project, import old sequence, etc, to no avail. I can't find any info on how to completely rebuild a project sequence by deleting the cache and db completely and forcing PPro to remake all it's media reference associations on one or ALL projects. A handy feature if it doesn't exist Adobe!

       

      Any help you could give would be greatly appreciated. Anyone else who is experiencing anything like this or can help (Adobe, Jeff, Chuck, Shooternz or other Community Pro's) PLEASE chime in!

       

      Thanks Harm.

      Thanks everyone.

        • 1. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
          Rex Hollingsworth

          I'll say three things...for one, HDMI out shouldn't matter. Two,

          driver version could be the problem. Three, several folks have said

          that the 480 is a planned card for support with the next point update,

          so in a month or two, you probably won't have to hack, so you might

          consider operating in software only mode until then.

           

          I hope some of the 480 hackers can speak up and help you. I plan on

          getting the 480, but my cheapy GTS 250 is treating me well for now.

          • 2. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
            d4digital Level 1

            Thanks for your reply Rex. 2 questions answered - HDMI and planned support for 480! I agree that it could be drivers still and software only is definitely a fallback plan.

             

            I am starting to think it may be something real simple like fragmentation. Often these problems come down to something basic. I'm going to run a major defrag overnight and see how that tracks in the morning.

             

            Cheers Rex.

            • 3. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
              Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

               

              Thoughts:

               

              - Nvidia driver support in 358 series problem

              - Bad card

              - Tweaks/config in NTune wrong

              - Adobe GTX480 support

              - Background services vs. Programs - what's better?

              - Some crazy setting in PPro I have wrong but can't find

              - PhysX playing havoc with something

              - HDMI out vs. DVI


              I am successfully using nVidia 197.75 with my GTX 480.  You might fall back and try older drivers and I would try not overclocking your GTX 480 there is no advantage for Premiere CS5

              Definitely programs

              Disable PhysX and 3D, they are not necessary for Premiere

              How many Processes do you have running after a clean boot up?

              Run PPBM4 (PPBM5 is not quite ready for public consumption) and see how your setup compares to the rest of the world

              • 4. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                d4digital Level 1

                Excellent response thank you Bill. I will make these changes and check the things you have mentioned and report back.

                 

                A full defrag has helped enormously. Just testing now but things definitely have improved.

                Interlace issue was simply an encoding setting which also effected colour, so this is good too.

                 

                Thanks again.

                • 5. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                  d4digital Level 1

                  Is there a specific way to Disable PhysX and 3D? Control panel doesn't seem to allow this?

                  • 6. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                    BrownCow Productions Level 1

                    I, too, suspect your media cache and DB might be causing your woes. You might try putting them on a bare, fast drive (7200rpm SATA would be plenty fast) and letting PPro rebuild your media cache and DB on import and see what happens.

                     

                    Harm's advice for a 4-disk setup is now what I am following, and am finding good performance with it, even on my antiquated Q6600 CPU setup and heavy-duty Canon DSLR footage. Spreading the frequent disk accesses over multiple drives does the magic, I guess. MPE, via a new Nvidia 470 is showing impressive results for me (not perfect, but I'll need to upgrade my CPU for that).

                     

                    Rather than opening legacy CS4 pproj's, you can import individual sequences for testing sake. I believe I've read on forums that large CS4 projects can go awry when imported into CS5. You can always finish your old projects in CS4 and then begin the new ones in CS5.

                     

                    Also, defrag regularly. I've used Perfect Disk for eons, and it defrags all my terabytes every morning before I wake.

                     

                    Hope this helps,
                    Brian Brown
                    BrownCow Productions

                    • 7. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                      Last to answer. Sorry, I read your post yesterday, but wanted to give it some thought.

                       

                      I'm using the 258.96 driver. I had serious trouble with the 257 beta. I haven't set up PhysX, left it on Auto-select, nor have I changed any 3D settings, apart from the global setting to use Multi-display, but I use dual monitors.

                       

                      I have disk defragging scheduled daily on all drives, using Perfect Disk 11. I also clean up my disks regularly.

                       

                      If you see anything like stuttering or jerkiness, check that you have:

                       

                      1. Completely disabled the sidebar

                      2. Turned off Indexing and compression on all drives

                      3. Turned off all unneeded services: Windows 7 Service Configurations by Black Viper

                      4. A static, fixed size page file and that the disk has run a boot defrag

                      5. Investigated running processes, that consume memory or CPU cycles with Process Explorer and / or Process Monitor

                      6. Run a thorough registry clean with CCleaner (freeware) or better with 1ClickPCFix (shareware)

                       

                      You can temporarily try using 1/2 resolution during play in the preview settings.

                       

                      If that helps, look at: The Case of the Unexplained

                      • 8. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                        Powered by Design Level 4

                        You did it again Harm.

                         

                        You killed 1;14;33 of my life.   lol

                         

                        I loved that link to The Case of the Unexplained

                         

                        Very informative and nice FREE tools.

                         

                        I may play with them with my old slow Windows XP that has slowed down.

                         

                        Of course I might just get a new hard drive and do a clean install.

                         

                        Thinking of putting Windows 7 on it with maybe a Raptor OS.

                         

                        Of course I could just put XP back on it for FREE.

                         

                        Who knows.  Things to do.

                         

                         

                        Thanks:  GLenn

                        • 9. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                          d4digital Level 1

                          Thank you Harm and everyone else for pitching in some great ideas. I have made the majority of these changes and am testing now to see what I can report back to you in the way of results.

                           

                          I can say that so far,

                           

                          - defragging, dskchk, boot time defrag, etc has made a noticable importment to performance - say 15% at least

                          - disabling unneeded services and processes along with sidebar removal - at least 5% improvement

                          - turned off Indexing and compression on all drives - at least 5%

                          - Getting Ntune properly configured - 5%

                          - MIscellaneous windows config as suggested by you all - 5%

                           

                          So I think I can safely say that the machine is performing around 35% better by following your advice to date. Thank you! Still starts to choke up after a long day in the edit but much improved.

                           

                          Drivers seem to be fine on 258.96 beta too (as Harm is finding).

                           

                          Will run PPBM4 and get some results.

                           

                          Not quite sure why it was mentioned that OC'ing the GPU wouldn't help rendering though? My impression was that both playback and rendering benefitted from a faster GPU? Render times do still seem very long with effects such as Magic Bullet Looks, Mojo or Colourista. In fact the GPU hardly regsiters activity which I think is odd.

                           

                          Thanks again everyone.

                          • 10. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                            d4digital Level 1

                            Thank  you Brian. Please see my response to Harm.

                             

                            Can I ask if you think putting the MC and DB on a seperate drive would benefit more than being where it is on a RAID that runs @700MB/sec? Putting it on a drive 1/6th the speed can only benefit it if, as you say "magic happens" by spreading this data around. Is that right? Being in a different location is better than being 6 times faster?

                             

                            Thanks!

                            • 11. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                              Harm Millaard Level 7

                              OC'ing the GPU does improve performance, but the bandwidth for OC'ing is pretty narrow and you may need to increase fan speeds, increasing noise significantly.

                              • 12. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                syntax3ra wrote:

                                .

                                 

                                Not quite sure why it was mentioned that OC'ing the GPU wouldn't help rendering though? My impression was that both playback and rendering benefitted from a faster GPU?

                                TThanks again everyone.

                                From my results testing the beta PPBM5 with the current Premiere version of 5.0.1 with a GTX 480 (700 MHz and 1.5 GB) and a GTX 285 (648 MHz and 1 GB) I found no difference in the scores.  I have not tried the same test with newer nVidia drivers and of course we expect Adobe will constantly be working on improving their CUDA coding optimization.

                                 

                                So for right now I will stand by my statement that overclocking will not improve your performance.   That more than likely will change as nVidia drivers and Adobe versions change.  So my statement is geared to a moving target that probably will change tomorrow.  Also as every one knows, overclocking can cause problems, hence my statement to try to solve your problem.

                                • 13. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                  d4digital Level 1

                                  Fair call Bill. Thanks.

                                   

                                  I've run PPBM4 twice now and generated the files but I get a runtime error for the VB Script. Can't find the files in the folder path. They are there, so I don't know what's going on. Perhaps I am doing something wrong.PPBM4.png

                                  • 14. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                    BrownCow Productions Level 1

                                    syntax3ra wrote:

                                     

                                    Can I ask if you think putting the MC and DB on a seperate drive would benefit more than being where it is on a RAID that runs @700MB/sec? Putting it on a drive 1/6th the speed can only benefit it if, as you say "magic happens" by spreading this data around. Is that right? Being in a different location is better than being 6 times faster?

                                     

                                    Thanks!

                                     

                                    I think what we're really trying to help you do here, is to eliminate variables. While your RAID is undoubtedly fast in sheer data thoughput, there could be some issue with latency or corruption through these often-accessed cache files that's causing you problems. Or not. Putting them on a non-RAID, relatively fast drive will help you eliminate that variable. And I don't think the cache files need a blazing fast HDD. Or the preview files. BUT, if all of this media is not sitting on the same (albeit, blazingly fast drive array), you might experience better playback. Or not. But, at least you'll know.

                                     

                                    I will also chime in and say with the GPU-acceleration in the present build of CS5, I don't believe that it offers any no benefit to OC your GPU. Using GPU-Z, I've never seen a GPU load of more than 35% on the single GPU that CS5 uses. My GTX 470 won't even break a sweat. OC'ing this wouldn't change the throughput of only 35% of the load that is being utilized.

                                     

                                    I know that there's the temptation to "crank it up to 11", but I think you should try to un-OC your CPU and GPU... and then check and see if this helps your playback issues. Or not. Maybe it's worth a shot...

                                    • 15. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                      d4digital Level 1

                                      You're absolutely right.

                                      Knocking these variables off one by one has already made significant improvement and is the right approach.

                                       

                                      I may be confused in that I am assuming that the cache and preview files are what needs to be accessed the fastest? So that playback is fast.

                                       

                                      On with more testing!

                                       

                                      Thanks again.

                                      • 17. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                        BrownCow Productions Level 1

                                        syntax3ra wrote:

                                         

                                        I may be confused in that I am assuming that the cache and preview files are what needs to be accessed the fastest? So that playback is fast.

                                         


                                         

                                        I think "fast" and "fast enough" are both acceptable in your case.

                                         

                                        However, what I'm concerned about is that the workstation's OS has to process a host of disk accesses to a common "disk" (yes, I know that your version of RAID stripes data across multiple physical HDDs, but this appears as a single volume to the OS). If all of those "packets" have to get behind other packets (like your media and preview files), then maybe it's actually faster to break up those accesses onto multiple, albiet slower physical (and distinct to the OS) HDDs. Placing media, preview files, potential swap disks, and media on a single drive (or array, in your case), might actually slow the process down. Or the vagaries of the RAID array itself (drivers, etc.) might be corrupting something on the data side of things, leading to degraded and stuttering performance.

                                         

                                        I'm no programmer, but would hazard a guess that the media files should be on the fastest drive (or array), followed by the cache files on their next-fastest disk, followed by the project and swap file.

                                        • 18. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                          Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP
                                          I'm no programmer, but would hazard a guess that the media files should be on the fastest drive (or array), followed by the cache files on their next-fastest disk, followed by the project and swap file.

                                          In this day and age with a 64-bit OS and hardly any limits on memory, the swap file (page file) is and should be almost unnecessary.  Now if you are a very heavy multitasker it may be used but the objective is to have enough memory so that it is never used.  I have Resource Manager data showing no Hard Memory Faults when encoding our complex (beta) PPBM5 when you have 12 GB installed, if you only have 6 GB it would under some circumstances have required paging.  Now that 24 GB single processor systems are technically feasible we are hopefully seeing the cost gradually coming down where they eventually will be everyday systems.

                                           

                                          If you have a large very fast array, like Harm and I do, putting some of those other files on a single disk does slow things down when tested in the past with preceding versions of PPBM.

                                           

                                          If you are talking about the other extreme of simply having a two, three, four or five seperate disk system, your catagorzation propably is correct

                                           

                                          In our testing we avoid using the cache files which default to the C: drive by opening AME for encoding directly rather than exporting from Premiere.  I am not sure in the above list where your preview files are located.

                                          • 19. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                            d4digital Level 1

                                            Worked this time thank you. Base results:

                                             

                                            32.7,  secs Total Benchmark Time
                                            9.9,  secs AVI  Encoding Time
                                            16.8,  secs MPEG Elapsed Time
                                            6,  secs Rendering Time

                                             

                                            Not too shabby but room for improvement.

                                            • 20. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                              d4digital Level 1

                                              PPBM4 TEST RESULTS:

                                               

                                              TEST 1 - media cache/DB on RAID 5 (700 MB/sec)

                                               

                                              32.7,  secs Total Benchmark Time
                                              9.9,  secs AVI  Encoding Time
                                              16.8,  secs MPEG Elapsed Time
                                              6,  secs Rendering Time

                                               

                                              TEST 1 - media cache/DB on RAPTOR (10,000RPM)

                                               

                                              32.9,  secs Total Benchmark Time
                                              10,  secs AVI  Encoding Time
                                              16.9,  secs MPEG Elapsed Time
                                              6,  secs Rendering Time

                                               

                                              Esssentially neck and neck on this test. So, with my setup cache location is not a significant issue at this stage.

                                              • 21. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                                BrownCow Productions Level 1

                                                These benchmarks numbers are interesting, but only account for mere seconds of time. Until you start chasing down your intermittent playback issues on real world, long-form projects, I'm not sure what you're trying to do here. Again, I didn't think you had any issues with encoding with CS5. Am I missing something?

                                                • 22. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                                  d4digital Level 1

                                                  Not at all.

                                                  I want to run a full day edit with the cache and db off the RAID as you suggested and see what happens.I've done this before the move.

                                                  I am currently editing a 1 hour documentary which is real world and long-form, so it's been a great test.

                                                  I would say that having the cache/db off the RAID is, after 4 hours editing, presenting a more stable system overall.

                                                  Playback is now smooth using this setup and I have seen no playback glitches.

                                                   

                                                  What I was trying to do was establish why no MPE, 8800 GTS and an inadequate PSU out-performed MPE, GTX480 and Corsair HX850w. This was the case under CS5 in the first week of use. It seems that the reasons for this were;

                                                   

                                                  - Lack of proper defragmentation - engage auto defrag

                                                  - Incorrect NTune settings

                                                  - Media cache/db benefit from separate fast disk to array - let them re-index

                                                  - Disable indexing on all drives

                                                  - Eliminate unwanted processes

                                                  - Delete unused app's or bloatware

                                                  - Housekeep system more often

                                                  - Uninstall PhysX and Sterroscopic 3D

                                                  - Boot time defrag and chedsk

                                                   

                                                  In other words - GTX480 now stable and fast with hack and NVidia 258.96 (Beta) on this build. Hopefully this will help someone.

                                                   

                                                  I still want to know why Harm get's to the top of that PPBM4 chart. It looks like his rendering times are excellent. Might the CPU?

                                                   

                                                  Thanks for all the input Folks! Greatly appreciated. Good job.

                                                  • 23. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                                    Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                    Don't worry, I have to succumb to Baz's sheer power and his faster clock speed, more cores, faster memory and disks. Jeez, I now know what Lance Armstrong must feel like . I or my system is getting too old to hold first place forever.

                                                    • 24. Re: Unsupported GPU for CS5
                                                      d4digital Level 1

                                                      Just for fun I put Win 7 on a pair of Raptors to see what difference it made in PPBM4. Media cache is back on the array.

                                                       

                                                      24.7,  secs Total Benchmark Time
                                                      -0.1,  secs AVI  Encoding Time
                                                      18.8,  secs MPEG Elapsed Time
                                                      6,  secs Rendering Time

                                                       

                                                      Better results but I don't know how I got a -0.1 for avi encoding! Must be a glitch in the Matrix.