26 Replies Latest reply on Aug 3, 2010 10:01 AM by MadManChan2000

    Distortion controls

    mikeengles Level 1

      Hello

      I do like the distortion controls In Raw 6.1, but as usual they do not go far enough. It would be grand if they were the same as the transform tools in Photoshop and displayed on a larger canvas with control handles. I find that I use Bridge and Camera Raw a lot for corrections for large slide shows.

      The levelling tool should have a magnifier at each end so that the position of start and end points can be more accurately set.

       

      Is there a way to alter the distortion tool grid size?

       

      The adjustment brush and gradient tools are also fine, but they should be displayed as a table, as in a layers menu with a toggle to switch on and off.

      It means that multiple masks (copies) could be used with different adjustments, in order to compare them.

       

      I am sure that it has already been done and scheduled for CS7 or 8.

       

      Mike Engles

        • 1. Re: Distortion controls
          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

          Which specific distortion controls are you referring to?


          • 2. Re: Distortion controls
            mikeengles Level 1

            Hello

             

            I am referring to the lens distortion controls which has vertical and horizontal adjustment as

            well as adjustments for chromatic distortion

             

            Mike Engles

            • 3. Re: Distortion controls
              MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

              Can you please post an image where you feel the horz/vert sliders don't go far enough? Also: if you're finding the CA range too small, you're probably better off building a profile using Lens Profile Creator.

              • 4. Re: Distortion controls
                mikeengles Level 1

                Hello

                 

                Some  lenses have 2nd order problems like a 'moustache' that cannot be corrected by simple pincushion correction.

                Look at Flo's filters to see what degree if control there is over lens distortion.

                http://flofilters.free.fr/ I do not like the sliders and the preview is not good

                 

                Also I much prefer the layer transform tools in Photoshop. I am sure that these can be applied in Camera Raw.

                I just do not like the controls in Raw when I know that there is something better, which can be done in a enlarged canvas

                with handles, as well as with perspective, distort, skew and warp. I also like the rulers and guides in Photoshop.

                The controls in Camera Raw are primative. It is too much trial and error and the grid cannot be varied, at least I cannot vary it.

                There are no rulers or guides.

                 

                It should be possible to do all corrections in Camera Raw for single images without resort to Photoshop proper, saving Photoshop proper

                for compositing or doing HDR.

                 

                Mike Engles

                • 5. Re: Distortion controls
                  MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                  That's what the Lens Profile Creator is for:

                   

                  http://labs.adobe.com/technologies/lensprofile_creator/

                   

                  It can deal with moustache/wave distortion (moreover, radial distortion with terms corresponding to order 2, 4, and 6), as demonstrated in this video:

                   

                  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5zAJTUJiCME

                  • 6. Re: Distortion controls
                    mikeengles Level 1

                    Hello

                     

                    Yes and it looks like real hard work.

                     

                    Flo's undistort is simpler to use and it also allows one to correct for

                    lens distortions that are not  symmetrical, by moving the centre point

                    using the xy shift. I have noticed that the DPP correction is more

                    accurate, but that

                    is not surprising considering that Canon must have all the data on its

                    lenses. I found PT lens very useful.

                    It is really early days for lens correction in Camera Raw!

                     

                    Mike Engles

                    • 7. Re: Distortion controls
                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                      mikeengles wrote:

                       

                      It is really early days for lens correction in Camera Raw!

                       

                       

                      Yep...think back to Camera Raw 2.4 (last CS2 ACR), 3.7 (last CS3 ACR), 4.6 (last CS4 ACR) and 5.7 (last CS5 ACR) and see the substantial progress over time. Also note the engineers are not above going back and improving something already written, hence Process 2003 and Process 2010. Things will progress over time...but it does take time (and users pushing in the right direction in the right way).

                      • 8. Re: Distortion controls
                        mikeengles Level 1

                        Hello

                         

                        By the same token the controls for skewing and perspective with rulers and guides is a very mature and could have been added to Camera Raw quite easily, rather than the primative ones we have at the moment.

                         

                        Mike Engles

                        • 9. Re: Distortion controls
                          mikeengles Level 1

                          Hello

                           

                          I have found something. A Canon 5D and a 16-35mm zoom.

                          The doorway should be vertical as should be the shop fronts. The pavement

                          by the pink chair should be horizontal.

                          Mine is not quite right.

                           

                          Mike Engles

                          • 10. Re: Distortion controls
                            Level 4

                            mikeengles wrote:

                             

                            …The doorway should be vertical as should be the shop fronts. The pavement

                            by the pink chair should be horizontal.

                            Mine is not quite right…

                             

                             

                            Had you intended to include a link to an image file somewhere?

                             

                            What doorway, what chair, what pavement?

                            • 11. Re: Distortion controls
                              mikeengles Level 1

                              Hello

                               

                              It seems that you did not get my attachments. Do you have somewhere to post

                              them? One of your colleagues asked for an image that could not be corrected

                              for distortion in Camera Raw 6.1

                               

                              Mike Engles

                              • 12. Re: Distortion controls
                                Level 4

                                To clarify, I'm not connected with Adobe.

                                 

                                The vast majority of forum participants access the forum through the web interface, not through email.  Any "attachments" you send with your emails are lost.

                                 

                                If you want to post an image, use the web interface, and utilize the camera icon in the Reply editor to embed a JPEG or TIFF to your post.

                                 

                                 

                                Wo Tai Lao Le

                                我太老了

                                • 13. Re: Distortion controls
                                  mikeengles Level 1

                                  Hello

                                   

                                  My apologies.

                                  This for Mr Chan2000, who asked for a challenge for the lens correction module in Camera raw 6.1Corr_MG_8632.jpg

                                  The top image is my corrrection done using the Photoshop transform tools, skew,perspective and scale, to try and match the tools in Camera Raw.

                                  Raw does not have skew.

                                  An alternative method would be using the crop tools  perspective,but

                                  that does not work with smart objects. My correction is by no means perfect.

                                  The door and shop fronts should be vertical and the pavement by the pink chair should be horizontal.

                                   

                                  Mike Engles Uncorr_MG_8632.jpg

                                   

                                  Message was edited by: mikeengles

                                  • 14. Re: Distortion controls
                                    Yammer Level 4

                                    I had a go.

                                     

                                    CS5 correctly applied the appropriate lens correction to the JPEG, but CR6.1 didn't, and I couldn't find the profile in the list either, even though it says Raw in the title (?).

                                     

                                    This is what I managed with the CS5 Lens Correction filter:

                                    Uncorr_MG_8632-CS5.jpg

                                     

                                    and this is what I managed with the CR6.1 manual settings only:

                                    Uncorr_MG_8632-ACR.jpg

                                     

                                    You can see that the ACR version is vertically stretched, this is due to the vertical distortion correction, but to be fair it's not a raw file, and the lens wasn't corrected. Otherwise, I'd be fairly happy with the results.

                                    • 15. Re: Distortion controls
                                      mikeengles Level 1

                                      Hello

                                       

                                      I would say a partial success.

                                      The problem is that the chairs in the background are sliding across the pavement, on a  slope. The pavement is not a slope. This cannot be corrected without a shear/skew control.

                                      We need both horizontal an vertical shear. We also need to be able to scale in both

                                      vertical and horizontal axes. It would also be very useful to be able to set a different point as the centre of the image and have all transforms work around the new centre.

                                      The slider controls in Raw are just much to primative and need to have a non linear adjutment for small changes. We really need control handles that can be nudged with the arrow keys and will snap to a grid and or guides. The Photoshop distort tool handles do not snap and are not nudgable. It is about time they were.

                                       

                                      I did say in my post that the pavement had to be horizontal. A lot of extreme wide angle lenses have distortions that skew unless the camera is exactly vertical. The distortions are such that it is impossible to frame it correctly, especially in the near corners. So if you frame that the nearest edge is vertical and not have the camera perfectly vertical, other elements will skew.

                                       

                                      Photoshop transform is perfect for distortion correction, because you can also use the warp tool and they work with smart objects, with I think the exception being the warp function. The other tool that works very well is using perspective in the crop tool. This does not work with smart objects and images in Raw are in essence smart objects, where all editing is non destructive.

                                       

                                      Mike

                                      • 16. Re: Distortion controls
                                        Yammer Level 4

                                        I think you may be expecting too much. This is a wide-angled shot, taken pointing slightly down. The distortion is pretty bad. I don't know how much of this is due to the lens, and how much is due to the extreme-wide angle. I don't know if your JPEG is cropped or corrected at all. I would certainly expect the pavement in the foreground to be slanted, and I would expect the slant to diminish as you move towards infinity, as this is the nature of perspective and vanishing points.

                                         

                                        I often feel that Photoshop's lens correction, although great to use, often needs a bit of extra help when dealing with extreme adjustment like these. Having another stab at your image, I would also apply a bit of vertical compression to compensate for the stretching. I would not see a problem with your "sloping" pavement, to me it's just an effect of perspective, and correcting may make it look artifical.

                                         

                                        Uncorr_MG_8632-2nd.jpg

                                        • 17. Re: Distortion controls
                                          mikeengles Level 1

                                          Hello

                                           

                                          In most images that distortion is no problem, but in something like the sloping pavement, the eye sees it as wrong. That is the point about correcting distortion. I find that my example is better in that verticals are vertical and horizontals are horizontal. These correction possibilites are doable in Raw. I am sure many people do not actually print their images but run slide shows on large monitors and would like to do extreme corrections in Raw.  That is what I would like.

                                           

                                          Mike Engles

                                          • 18. Re: Distortion controls
                                            MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                            Hi Mike, thanks for providing the example. I understand what you are trying to accomplish (e.g., want base of chair to be horizontal, instead of sloped down-and-to-the-right) but unfortunately this is out of the scope of the design of the feature in CR/LR. The feature as-designed in CR/LR is effectively to rotate & orient the plane of the film/sensor to be aligned with the desired plane in the scene -- not to perform an arbitrary (and in this case non-physical) perspective transform. In this case, looking at the scene level, (instead of tilted up/down, or rotated left/right), the verticals should appear vertical, and the legs of the chair should indeed be slope down-and-to-the-right.

                                             

                                            BTW, my comment with regard to the video & wave distortion is that if you have a profile for the lens in question, correcting the rectilinear distortion is just a matter of clicking the "Enable Lens Profile Corrections" button.
                                            • 19. Re: Distortion controls
                                              Noel Carboni Level 7
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                                              mikeengles wrote:


                                              in something like the sloping pavement, the eye sees it as wrong.

                                               

                                              Hi Mike,

                                               

                                              Having just seen the Camera Raw image for the first time, frankly I didn't perceive it as wrong in the slightest, save for a bit of camera rotation.  When that is corrected it just looks like there's a hint of a downslope (hill) toward the road.  And I live in Florida, so rest assured I'm not used to seeing hills at all. 

                                               

                                              By contrast, the very first image posted in the series looks badly distorted to me.

                                               

                                              No charge for this critical assessment. 

                                               

                                              -Noel

                                              • 20. Re: Distortion controls
                                                mikeengles Level 1

                                                Hello

                                                 

                                                Thanks for your reply.

                                                 

                                                That is why I think that the Photoshop Transform controls should be incorporated into CR. We are supposed to be dealing with

                                                lens distortion, not bad framing. In real life the chairs would not slope. The lens is distorting the image. You correct for lens barreling, aberations and vignetting, why not a twisting distort (very well handled with skew and or arbitrary distort) I was expecting something more ambitious for my UKP180 upgrade. CR images in RAW are smart objects and the Transform tools work on smart objects.

                                                At the moment I am experimenting with using the Transform Tools on a rendered smart object, it works but, it is not very elegant.

                                                 

                                                P.S Pavements (sidewalks) do not slope like that in the UK. There might be a very slight one for rainwater to flow into the gutter. The effect you see is a lens distortion. The image was taken with a 16-35mm at 16mm, the distortion a peculiarity of the lens. I would expect a slope off very near and toward the camera, but not at the distance the chair is from the camera. If I took such an image with a 50mm, the result would be correct.

                                                 

                                                I must go back to the place to see if the pavement slopes!!

                                                 

                                                Mike Engles

                                                 

                                                Message was edited by: mikeengles

                                                • 21. Re: Distortion controls
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                  If it is a raw file, can you post a link to it online, please?  I would like to fool with it.  Perhaps I can suggest some settings you hadn't combined.

                                                   

                                                  Never mind, I worked on the JPEG you posted.

                                                   

                                                  I think your main problem is that you want the vertical lines to all be straight, and that's where you're going wrong.  You absolutely cannot get all the vertical and horizontal lines straight.  If you try to distort the image so severely to accomplish that then you will end up visibly distorting the subject material.

                                                   

                                                  Consider leaving some of the perspective distortion in the image.  For example:

                                                   

                                                  Distortion.jpg

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: Distortion controls
                                                    mikeengles Level 1

                                                    Hello

                                                     

                                                    It is a RAW from a 5D, about 13Mb. I have no where to post it, but I seem to have an upload limit as well, it fails at about 7mb.

                                                     

                                                    I have not found any combination of rotate and perspective that will correct the slope. As I say only the skew and distort in Photoshop Transform does the trick.It is so much easier to use drag handles and set guides than move the rather primative sliders.Sliders are OK for most of the CR functions, but not for this.

                                                     

                                                    I have been looking at the background and my correction having made the chair horizontal, twists the table and furniture at the back, the other way, sloping into the shop window!  Not correct either. Back to the drawing board.

                                                     

                                                    Mike Engles

                                                    • 23. Re: Distortion controls
                                                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                      The issue really is that you are shooting down to the furniture.  The stuff at eye level is straight.  Think of your two vanishing points.  Anything below level is going to be slanted, much as the tiles are quite slanted at the very bottom of the image.

                                                       

                                                      With a wide angle lens you'll want in general to shoot level.

                                                       

                                                      It's not evil to leave some lines of perspective in the image, even in the 3rd dimension.

                                                       

                                                      This is not really a software failure at all.

                                                       

                                                      -Noel

                                                      • 24. Re: Distortion controls
                                                        Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                        On the other hand, maybe rather than discussing Lens Correction we should be requesting that the Crop tool be capable of perspective crop, as is the one in Photoshop proper...

                                                         

                                                        PerspectiveCrop.jpg

                                                        PerspectiveCropped.jpg

                                                         

                                                        -Noel

                                                        • 25. Re: Distortion controls
                                                          mikeengles Level 1

                                                          Hello

                                                           

                                                          Now that is a very good suggestion, but I have noticed that the crop tool in Photoshop does not do perspective with smart objects. While we are at it CR also needs proper rulers and guides and zooming with the scroll wheel as we are already used to them in Photoshop.

                                                          I am sure that I am not unique in wishing CR had many more of the usual Photoshop tools incorporated so that we can do almost all single image corrections in CR for large monitor display. One day all image processing will be completely non destructive. It is in the audio world. The adjustment brush needs a layers system (there is space) and better selection.

                                                           

                                                          Mike Engles

                                                          • 26. Re: Distortion controls
                                                            MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                            Mike, I disagree, the chair does slope to the right, relative to the eye position. I have roughly duplicate the object setup (seen in your image) here just to check. The sloping of the chair down-and-to-the-right has nothing to do with the lens (or any aberrations it may have) but due to its position relative to your eye.