4 Replies Latest reply on Jul 26, 2010 11:44 AM by Stefan Rommel

    strange behavior of PPCS5 source/program monitor

    Stefan Rommel

      I have a problem using PPCS5 when watching my source files using the source monitor or watching the timeline using the program monitor with a seperate attached TV the the secondary VGA port.


      My system is an i7 930, 8GB ram, Win7 64 Ultimate and GTX260, so no mercury engine here. The VGA card is connected to a primary monitor, EIZO CG241 and to a secondary TV, PHILIPS 22PFL5604/H (full hd and PAL 50Hz). The output for the PHILIPS is set to 1920x1080, interlaced and is configured in PPCS5 as external monitor for the source/program monitors. Both monitors in PPCS5 are configured as vectorscopes (later to that), so no video here.


      When editing any files (e.g. AVCHD, correct sequence settings to AVCHD/50i as source, but also happens with MPEG files and other) the output on the PHILIPS is rarely ok (smooth, correct interlaced picture), but most times somewhat strange. The image looks like 25p or even worse (AERO switched of, CPU load is below 20%). Passing cars stutter very much e.g.. There are also other effects that I made some "screenshoots" from (took a digital still camera since I found no possibility of making an in system screen shoot from the secondary preview monitor):



      This first image is quite ok. You see the "deinterlaced (think deinterlacing from TV)" wheel of the car in the background in the right "distance". This looks smooth in playback like playback directly from the camera on the TV.




      This is what I get most times: See the distance of the wheel of the car in the backgroud. The "distance" looks twice as usual. So the playback isn´t smooth anyway.





      Very often I also get effects like these in playback: Watch the windscreen and the side window or the back of the white van in front. There is a misalignment of the upper and the lower parts of the image.





      Very strange effects take place when I set the source monitor to display audio waveform:



      When audio waveform is activated, there is "never" a perfect picture. Most times the upper fourth of the screen flickers and the rest keeps black. Sometimes I get an image like in the picture above. You can see clean picture in the very upper area, below sometimg like a half of the image interlace, flickering like 25Hz, only upper or lower field, so black lines, the bottom is ok again. Fuzzy, not?!



      I tried many settings (I thing everything possible), 50p, 50i on the output for the PHILIPS, AERO on and off and so on. Only sometimes the output is ok, very most times not. Sometime you press play/stop and it´s fine, a second later pressing play/stop again and there is stuttering and or misalignment.

      The effects also take place on a second system (Q6600, 8GB, Vista 64).


      Since there is a different behavior with the audio waveform setting I think it´s a problem of PPCS5, not Windows or something else. Best results are using the vectorscope in the source/program monitor. Results are the same on source/program monitor.



      Anybody else has these problems? Anybody using a Black Magic Design Intensity Pro simply for preview/monitoring? What´s happening there? Perfect playback from native AVCHD timeline without transcoding to Blackmagic codecs before?


      Any idea what to do? Is Adobe familiar with this problem?


      I have no more idea (drivers are actual!!!) but I can hardly live with this kind of preview.



        • 1. Re: strange behavior of PPCS5 source/program monitor
          Stefan Rommel Level 1

          Ok, looks like the preview of the images isn´t that ideal in this forum (to large) will resize the posted, here the originals:


          http://www.rhs-net.com/storage/stme/img_01b.jpg  (image ok, looks smooth)


          http://www.rhs-net.com/storage/stme/img_02b.jpg  (stuttering like 25p or even worse)


          http://www.rhs-net.com/storage/stme/img_03b.jpg  (misalignment floating through the image)


          http://www.rhs-net.com/storage/stme/img_04b.jpg  (when activating the audio waveform in the monitor, flickering in the top, only one field below, sometimes complete black in the bottom)



          Hope this looks better.



          • 2. Re: strange behavior of PPCS5 source/program monitor
            thenoisystuff Level 1

            You have two issues here as I see it and they may or may not be connected.  One concerns image quality, the other an ability to get a satisfactory combined output using audio waveforms etc.


            As I understand it your monitor is 1080p LCD but you are editing AVCHD/50i. (1080i) So you are sending an interlaced signal to it and letting the monitor's internals de-interlace it.  I have a similar system using HDV and it works satisfactorily all of the time.  The difference is that I use a second VGA card to output to the LCD (as a third monitor in playback settings).  I do not use it for grading.


            You say that sometime playbck is ok. (Am I correct?)  Which suggests that the system is capable of working...just not very often.


            The images give all the impression of interlace combing so it might be that your Phillips is not so good at de-interlacing for progressive viewing.

            The fact that the same problem occurs on your other system might also point to the Phillips.


            Quote from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deinterlacing:


            Most modern displays, such as LCD, DLP and plasma displays, are not able to work in interlaced mode, because they are fixed-resoution displays and only support progressive scanning. In order to display interlaced signal on such displays, the two interlaced fields must be converted to one progressive frame with a process known as de-interlacing. However, when the two fields taken at different points in time are re-combined to a full frame displayed at once, visual defects called interlace artifacts or combing occur with moving objects in the image. A good deinterlacing algorithm should try to avoid interlacing artefacts as much as possible and not sacrifice image quality in the process, however this is a very complex task and there is considerable doubt that 'ideal' deinterlacer is practically possible.


            As far as Intensity pro is concerned I haven't used it with AVCHD so I can't comment.  As for your waveform out problem - I'm not sure this is a PROBLEM as you suggest.  More that's you're asking CS5 to do more than it was designed to do.


            My post might not be helping you very much but others may have a better view of what's needed.





            • 3. Re: strange behavior of PPCS5 source/program monitor
              Stefan Rommel Level 1

              Ok, I forget to mention that on the same system the same AVCHD streams play fine with MediaPlayer 12 (AERO disabled), even on the PHILIPS, so no problem with the PHILIPS here. BluRay is also playing fine using WinDVD 2010 Pro.


              I also tried using a seperate VGA card (GT220), also with DVI to HDMI, but the result is the same.

              Today I got an ATI 5450 for testing, but I can´t get the right resolution to work (only 1680 is possible to date, don´t know why). Maybe nVidia and ATI doesn´t like to work together in the same system. The GT220 added to the GTX260 was ok in resolution, but the stuttering effects were the same as with my primary GTX260.


              Maybe I was misunderstood in regards of the audio waveform display. When I choose audio waveform display in the programs source monitor (so that the source monitor on the primary display displays the audio waveform of the clip), the video output on the PHILIPS is something diffrent as described for the fourth picture in my first post.


              But thanks alot by the way!

              Seems that NLE continues what it has been for over 10 years now. Expensive, unfinished stuff that drives people crazy while not working as it should. Why is it so hard to play back a simple video (ok, AVCHD isn´t simple, but my CPU only runs at below 20% when playing) like a stupid TV does?!

              I have to calm down...

              • 4. Re: strange behavior of PPCS5 source/program monitor
                Stefan Rommel Level 1

                Ok, tried the ATI HD 5450 in addition to the GTX260, but nearly the same behaviour. Difference is that I never get a smooth playback here, looks always like 25p. Tried "every" setting possible, interlace, non interlace, 25Hz, 50Hz, 60Hz... adapter is always displayed as 60p in Premiere settings for secondary screen.

                My nerves ...