23 Replies Latest reply on Jul 27, 2010 5:53 PM by shooternz

    CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!

    shooternz Level 6

      Is CS5/4  able to show timecode in audio .wavs (anywhere/anyhow) ?

       

      Yesterdays shoot- Free run timecode specifically set to record in double system set up and now I can not find anyway to see the audio time code!

       

      Metadata starts at 00:00:00:00 as does source window.

       

      Tell me this not fact and there is some way to extract the info...please.

       

      Maybe a third party application?

        • 1. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
          shooternz Level 6

          Here is the massive time wasting workaround I just finished doing.

           

          Opened all the audio wavs in Audition 3.

           

          The XMP Info gave me the start Time code

           

          I then Pasted the Time code to head of each  wav in PremPro.  All forty nine of them!

           

           

          I dont get why PPRO cant read and use the same metadata as Audition can !

           

              Not a happy editor at the moment.

          • 2. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
            Tim Kolb Level 1

            Unfortunately this is not new...

             

            Premiere Pro has not been able to read any video timecode in an audio file since i can remember...  It's certainly been requested.

             

            I don't know if it has something to do with the fact that PPro can read audio by sample on the timeline, so it doesn't look at the content in terms of 'frames'...I have no idea.

             

            I usually tell anyone who asks me to use a video deck to roll audio if you're dual system.  A DV deck will lay down TC and PPro will see it.

             

            It's far from ideal, but it's definitely a limitation at the moment, no question...

             

            ...I've never tried it, but the metadata panle in PPro didn't show you the TC, but Audition did?  That's weird.  I'm an Audition user as well, but I've never tried that.  i always assumed that the metatdata was the metadata and that was that...

             

            TimK

            • 3. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
              Colin Brougham Level 6

              I don't have Audition so I can't test this, but does Audition have the ability to batch export AVI/MOV files? Just wondering out loud if it would inject the timecode into a video file this way...?

              • 4. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                Tim Kolb Level 1

                That's a very interesting idea...I'm not sure there is a way to do this as a batch however...

                 

                BUT I wonder if media encoder would see the TC?...you could batch out to AVIs easily there.

                 

                If you look at the original wav files in Bridge...does the TC show in the metadata?

                 

                I need some wavs with TC now...  I'm curious about this...

                • 5. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                  shooternz Level 6

                  Tim

                   

                  Meta Data on the audio clip in PPRO shows a 00:00:00:00 start

                   

                  In Audition 3 there is a File menu item 'XMP Info".

                   

                  "Audio Data 2"  displays the start timecode as "BWF Time Reference"

                   

                  BWF =  Broadcast Wave File

                   

                  Thank heaven for Timecode paste function in PPRO but of course that does not travel with the wav file should another facilty require it.

                   

                  Double system sound recorder we used was a Disk Recorder (Professional).  We only used it because it was impossible to wireless or cable connect to the two camreas in a tricky location and what the presenter was doing.

                   

                  Never even crossed my mind that I would stumble at PPRO.

                  • 6. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                    Colin Brougham Level 6

                    Thank heaven for Timecode paste function in PPRO but of course that does not travel with the wav file should another facilty require it.

                    Why would you need it to? Presumably, the timestamp is still present in the BWF, so it can travel independently of the Premiere project or XMP metadata file (if one is generated). It would seem logical that, as long as there was no drift, the timecode you manually associate in Premiere will coincide with the timestamp in the external audio file.

                    • 7. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                      shooternz Level 6

                      I need to use the Paste Timecode function to apply the correct TC to the audio clip (wav).

                       

                      I use Audition to establish what the first frame TC  of the audio is...then I paste that to the clip in PPRO.

                       

                      I have an entire 7 hour  shoot ...( Free run Time code on Camera and Disk Recorder).  Neither were recording continously so I have about 1 hour of footage from the day.

                       

                      I need to match the video to the audio and therefore I need to see the timecode in both sources.

                       

                      It works perfectly, simply and fast for editing purposes once TC is on the audio clips.

                       

                      BTW - I do have reference audio on all my video (mxf) so I am editing with that first then matching back to the real audio via method above.

                      • 8. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                        shooternz Level 6

                        Media Encoder certainly does embedd the Timeline TC.

                         

                        Doubt that it can export the TC from a clip. (esp from  audio)

                        • 9. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                          Colin Brougham Level 6

                          No, I got that. My point is that your timecode (timestamp, actually) is already present in the BWF, regardless of whether Premiere can read it or not. So if your audio goes to another facility with better BWF handling than you have access to, it's already present in the files (assuming Audition doesn't maim them somehow), so there's no need to worry about the TC you're setting manually in PPro to carry through beyond your own purposes. This is the theory, anyway.

                           

                          Out of curiosity, did you try the Synchronize > Timecode option with your footage? I'm assuming that your camera and recorder weren't slaved, so you've got disparate start and stop points, making syncing up a little more work. If you drop the video and audio portion in the timeline, you should be able to select both, right-click and select Synchronize, and then pick the timecode option. It doesn't really matter what TC value you set, so long as it's present in both clips; when you hit OK, they'll slide together and as long as your TC is set correctly, they'll be in sync.

                          • 10. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                            Colin Brougham Level 6

                            It does, at least, with DV AVIs, DV MOVs, P2 MXFs, AVCHD MTS... that's what I've tested so far

                            • 11. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                              shooternz Level 6
                              Out of curiosity, did you try the Synchronize > Timecode option with your footage?

                               

                               

                              I must see if I can incorporate that when I come to match the audio (after the edit is more completed.

                               

                              Must find that Synchronise function first though?

                               

                              "Synchronise" does not get found in a search of the pdf Help file BTW.

                              • 12. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                Colin Brougham Level 6

                                Just select your clips in the sequence, right-click, and you'll get your usual context menu. Pick Synchronize from there (it's also present in Clip > Synchronize). Looks a little sumthin' like this:

                                 

                                synchronize.png

                                • 13. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                  shooternz Level 6

                                  Thanx. CB

                                  I knew it was there somewhere.

                                  • 14. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                    Colin Brougham Level 6

                                    Check here for the help docs: Synchronize clips with markers

                                     

                                    Really doesn't tell a whole lot, though...

                                    • 15. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                      Colin Brougham Level 6

                                      You're welcome--hope it helps a little bit in what appears to be a frustrating process!


                                      • 16. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                        shooternz Level 6

                                        Its only frustrating because one would expect to be able to read the TC from the audio track in a professional

                                        NLE system.

                                         

                                        The Synchronise Function  is built in,  So what does Adobe expect the editor  to use that for if the damn audio doesnt have readable TC from the metadata.

                                         

                                        In the "olden days"...I use to have to go through the whole film rushes roll and the entire 16/35mm mag track and draw chinagraph marks with punch holes to enable picture sound synchronisation on the bench.  Why should this little exercise bother me?

                                         

                                        Because its so  un-necessary these days... thats why!

                                         

                                         

                                        • 17. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                          Colin Brougham Level 6

                                          Its only frustrating because one would expect to be able to read the TC from the audio track in a professional NLE system.

                                          I cannot disagree with this sentiment. Hopefully, Adobe realizes that now that they're moving in the direction of speed and stability, it's time to look at adding more features focused on a professional working environment. Format support and things of that ilk are great, as are general editing speed and flexibility, but with the lack of some professional-level workflows that don't require painful workarounds (like this), it's going to be difficult to steal Avid's and FCP's thunder in that sector.

                                          The Synchronise Function  is built in,  So what does Adobe expect the editor  to use that for if the damn audio doesnt have readable TC from the metadata.

                                          Its intended purpose: synchronizing multicamera angles. This command is designed to get jam-synced or slaved camera footage in sync quickly for a multicamera edit. We're sort of subverting it in an attempt to make your life a little easier

                                          In the "olden days"...I use to have to go through the whole film rushes roll and the entire 16/35mm mag track and draw chinagraph marks with punch holes to enable picture sound synchronisation on the bench.  Why should this little exercise bother me?

                                           

                                          Because its so  un-necessary these days... thats why!

                                           

                                           

                                          Two words: "ugh" and "amen!" You know what to do: Adobe - Feature Request/Bug Report Form

                                           

                                          Curious to hear how it all works out for you...

                                          • 18. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                            Tim Kolb Level 1

                                            A better option for dual system post is definitely something that's been brought up over the last series of releases.

                                             

                                            My guess is, Adobe has been in a bit of a priority conundrum for a while...

                                             

                                            Do you dedicate resources to building the features that you now your current customer base asks for, or do you invest in features that the customer you'd like to pursue is asking for...or split it...then where is the split?  Then there is the time dedicated to the inter-application functions, which are getting more and more complex every rev...

                                             

                                            I'd venture a guess that Premiere Pro users who encounter dual system sound (a la feature production, etc) are not common at this point (though I've been there several times...and I have been equally annoyed).  But as Colin asserts, features like this are important if Adobe's intent is to push PPro "up-market".  CS5 may be the best chance to grab some market share that Adobe has had to-date.  Now the tools have to come with it...

                                             

                                            It is easy for us on the outside to assume that Adobe just isn't listening when the features we want don't show up (I am certainly guilty of that myself), but there are often logistics in the software that make some specific thing utterly impractical or even impossible.

                                             

                                            We need to keep urging Adobe on when it comes to the features we need, and we need to find workarounds in the meantime, which are often pretty frustrating and time-consuming.  However, it's important to avoid assuming intent by implying that Adobe is somehow not listening or doesn't care.  I know many of the Premiere Pro team personally, and while they definitely have limitations of time and resources as any business unit does, it definitely does not mean that they aren't listening or don't care.  I can't speak for the larger enterprise, but I know this about the PPro team.

                                             

                                            Not to go all sunshine and bunnies here...but definitely take the time to get a featiure request submitted.  It's the only way they can tell how many people need a particular feature.

                                            • 19. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                              Colin Brougham Level 6

                                              Good points, Tim--and I can definitely confirm that the Premiere team cares about the product. I've been contacted several times recently by team members, either in response to a post here on the forums or a feature request or a bug report. One of my feature requests got a personal reply, with a mention that a lot of PPro users had been requesting the same feature, but it was proving more difficult to implement than was originally expected. Nevertheless, there was a level of commitment intimated that assured me they were going to make it work, come hell or high water. I appreciate that--that lets me know they're listening to the most pressing usability and functionality (and stability) concerns and addressing them. Of course, not everything can happen the way we'd like, and that's just what we need to keep in mind.

                                               

                                              It's features like the dual-system support that present one of those "chicken or egg" conundrums. Premiere is going to start popping up on more pros radars, whether they like it or not, and Adobe has to take that seriously. Do you attract potential new customers with all the sweet new features you've got, and risk losing them forever when they find out you don't have what they need, or do you alienate a gigantic sector of your user base that wants more effects and transitions, and focus your efforts on functionality that most of the user base would find yawn-inducing and decry as "not for me?" It's a critical time for Adobe, and certainly not an enviable one! I'm glad I'm not one of the product managers right now

                                               

                                              Nevertheless, I'd imagine that for most of the current user base, Premiere does 98% of what they need--that's based on what I know I need, and what Premiere provides. But there's that nagging 2% area where any experienced editor--and typically anyone trying to use Premiere to earn a living--grumbles and says, "C'mon, already... get with the program." I guess if it worked 100%, we'd get bored easy because we wouldn't be able to spend all our time finding workarounds What would be the fun of that?

                                              • 20. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                                tclark513 Level 3

                                                I read in the Red Forums that Adobe knows and is working on it now.

                                                • 21. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                                  Tim Kolb Level 1

                                                  tclark513 wrote:

                                                   

                                                  I read in the Red Forums that Adobe knows and is working on it now.

                                                  (chuckle)  Well...they've 'known' about it for several versions...I'm hoping it's risen a bit on the priority list now that CS5 seems to be in position to really make some inroads...

                                                  • 22. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                                    tclark513 Level 3

                                                    Somebody from Adobe jumped in and made it sound like it was real close.

                                                    • 23. Re: CS5 (or 4)  Timecode in audio!
                                                      shooternz Level 6

                                                      I do hope so.

                                                       

                                                      Anyone from Adobe able to chime in here please?