8 Replies Latest reply on Jul 30, 2010 1:59 PM by eckelsteve1

    Mixed format workflow within Adobe CS5 Suite for 2k Output


      I have multiple formats of RED footages in 2k, 4k apart from that DPX files in 2.35 Anamorphic format and DSLR footages too.


      We would like to do the full post production within Adobe CS5 Suite. Edit in Premiere, Compositing & Grade in Aftereffects with color finesse.


      Our final output would be in 2k DPX sequence Master @ pixel aspect ratio square -  2048X872


      My doubts are as follows :
      1.) While working we would need to PAN & Zoom in RED 4k files. Is that a good practise to do it in premiere cs5 ?
      2.) What are the recommended project setting & Interpret footage settings ?
      3.) I have planned to import all the footages as it is to Premiere and assume them as 24 fps using Interpret footage settings. Is this is a good practise to do it in premiere cs5.
      4.) Since my output will be 2k, can i modify RED 2k settings to 2048X872 @ 24 fps @  pixel aspect ratio square and continue to edit?


      I have already gone through this article
      DAVTech Table - Editing with RED 1.7 Technical Overview. It discusses only about RED.



        • 1. Re: Mixed format workflow within Adobe CS5 Suite for 2k Output
          Tim Kolb Level 1

          I do multiple framesize and format editing in Premiere Pro all the time...  It's one of the things I like best about PPro.


          You have some options...


          I would make a custom sequence setting at your frame size and frame rate target.  This will be a "desktop" sequence.  you'll simply scale your material as you see fit.  Your RED can be shrunk to fit the frame, or pan and scan, or a bit of both?


          You could actually run the color grade in PPro if you have the system torque.  I might suggest taking a look at Magic Bullet Colorista 2, it's a color correction tool on par with the rest of MB's product line...all very good.


          If you decided to go this route, you'll get the best color fidelity by going into the sequence settings and checking the box "maximum bit depth" which will put everything that isn't limited to 8 bit (as your DSLR footage is), like your RED and your DPX files (I assume anyway), into 32 bit float to preserve its color precision...and color correct away.


          HOWEVER, I'd get myself a fire-breathing monster of a workstation to run this way-8 physical cores/16 logical cores MINIMUM with 16 GB of RAM...with a Quadro card with a DisplayPort output to get 10 bit out for grading, and then get a 10 bit display.


          I think with an adequate computer system, you'd be surprised how well PPro will accomplish this...and, no it won't be inexpensive, but for any other NLE workflow route, you'll be transcoding everything...In the 90s I had 50,000.00/pc in Media 100 workstations with all the proprietary components, etc..render everything....


          If you spent between 7 and 10,000.00 on a workstation for CS5, you'd have a system that online editors couldn't have pictured in their wildest dreams 5-7 years ago.

          • 2. Re: Mixed format workflow within Adobe CS5 Suite for 2k Output
            SMS.Sivanesan Level 1

            thanks for the inpputs tim


            if do colour correction within using Colorista 2 in pp will it be off any use??


            pp has no color manage option with it......


            im thinking of using universal camera film printing density as my colorspace in AE


            this follwowing LCD will be my external device for color correction.




            will it help me properly?


            I also have a budget to get a "DeckLink HD Extreme 3D" should i use my lcd throgh my GPU or thru decklink card? which will be efficient?

            • 3. Re: Mixed format workflow within Adobe CS5 Suite for 2k Output
              Tim Kolb Level 1

              What will your ultimate output be?  Film?


              The monitor you linked to is a consumer Cold Cathode backlit LCD.


              This would not be a monitor I would recommend for color correction if you are concerned enough about the color management to want to use AE to run a specific color profile, it's capable of 8 bit color and I would guess that calibration of this monitor would be an arbitrary process at best.

              • 4. Re: Mixed format workflow within Adobe CS5 Suite for 2k Output
                SMS.Sivanesan Level 1

                yeah tim......


                this is consumer monitor.... i got home use.....


                my output is mostly aimed at Digital cinema.... ofcourse i will be calibrating it after seeing some projected films & digital projections......


                have to make a profile and mostly with eyes rather than calibration systems.....

                • 5. Re: Mixed format workflow within Adobe CS5 Suite for 2k Output
                  Level 4

                  Tim...I'm curious...



                  What will your ultimate output be?  Film?



                  what would your export be for the red 2k stuff for film to give to the agency ?





                  • 6. Re: Mixed format workflow within Adobe CS5 Suite for 2k Output
                    Tim Kolb Level 1

                    Hi Siva,


                    First off...I'm not a snob, so don't take this that way... 


                    The chief fear I have with your plan is that you're making an aesthetic assessment of where you will like to see your television setup...then you'll color correct to that.


                    The problem with televisions is that they're all over the place.  when they're used to view entertainment shows, you can adjust them however you like them of course, but when you're doing color correction, you don't necessarily want to be "pleased"...you want to be accurate.


                    Of course the next question is "accurate to what"?




                    If you were going to a film out, you would want to color correct on a monitor that was calibrated as accurate...optimize the image, then before the transfer, a look up table (or LUT) is applied that alters the reponse of whatever standard you did your CC to (let's say rec 709 HD) to whatever film stock's known response curves to get as predictable a product as possible.


                    the issue with using a Cold Cathode LCD is that it's really only practically 8 bit...technically LED backlit LCDs are capable of closer to 10 bit.  If you had a way to calibrate that and could feed it display port from a display card that supported deep color precision, then you'd be closer...but if it was a consumer set, i'd recommend getting a professional display card like a Quadro and a probe like the Eye One...that way the display card will analyze the monitor's response and change its palette to make the panel as accurate as possible...it loads its own LUT.


                    The problem with "calibration" without a probe in general, particulary when you are trying to do it by sight is that you can usually get the white point, the black point, and the hue and saturation (with some practice and experience) based on color bars...fairly close.


                    Where it all goes down the dumper is in the middle grayscale...this is where the image aesthetic is nailed...or failed.  The ongoing conersation about Quicktime's enduring gamma curve misinterpretation is an excellent illustration of the problem.  You could say that this only affects the luma response curve in the middle, so it's not as important as the top and bottom of the scale, but everything from color correction to keying to compression is done to blend pixels within the defined luma response curve (or lack thereof) within which the given effect is applied and playing back that clip at a different gamma setting is rarely an aesthetically pleasing thing as what may have looked beautiful and smooth in the setting you were working in may appear quite awful when the luma response curve is interpreted differently..  Since a completely gray picture is the only time when all the colors exist in equal amounts in the image, changing the luma curve affects color and hue as well in most images.




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                    • 7. Re: Mixed format workflow within Adobe CS5 Suite for 2k Output
                      Tim Kolb Level 1

                      Well...I'm no expert on film stocks, so we'll qualify with that...


                      I would think that most facilities can deal with DPX frame sequences...they're pretty standard.

                      • 8. Re: Mixed format workflow within Adobe CS5 Suite for 2k Output
                        eckelsteve1 Level 1

                        DPX or Cineon is the way to go in my experience for color correction with most post houses.

                        If you are on a budget, I have found in LA, I am sure it's true other places, that there are a lot of talented colorists moonlighting in their garages on a souped up AE setup. The advantage to having a colorist working in AE is that all you have to do is export and EDL, bring your hard drives over and reconnect your R3D footage in AE.  Saves considerable time rendering DPX images sequences, and if you change your mind about the length of a transition the footage is right there.  I used a guy on one film to just do AE VFXs, but he was also a colorist and title designer, so I could have done the titles, effects and color all under one roof.  Wish I had, would have saved money and time.

                        In any event, PrPro - to AE is our workflow on the current R3D film I am editing.

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