10 Replies Latest reply on Aug 10, 2010 5:16 PM by Colin Brougham

    Ultra Key and synch sound issue.

    shooternz Level 6

      Can anyone confirm or verify this for me please


      Source files are P2 MXF (720p PAL) synch sound on green screen.


      When I have Ultra Key FX enabled the synch sound is out. (of synch)


      When Ultra Key FX  is s disabled the synch is in.

        • 1. Re: Ultra Key and synch sound issue.
          Level 4

          shooternz...  wow , that's weird...  I'm curious...if you unlnk sound would that work for you as a temporary workaround till that's fixed ?

          • 2. Re: Ultra Key and synch sound issue.
            shooternz Level 6

            I cant do much until I do a lot of testing to see if it is only in preview or if it would export.


            I wont know what to trust otherwise.


            either way..its a PITA



            Could be a combined function of UltraKey and MPE for example.

            • 3. Re: Ultra Key and synch sound issue.
              Level 4

              shooternz, I couldnt find anything on the internet that is similar to your problem.


              On the way I saved some stuff that you might like to have anyway, maybe for future reference .....maybe something will catch your eye anyway re: working with p2 stuff...





              Home / Using Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 / Workflows and system setup / Setting up your system

              Specify the default audio device

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              ·         Audio Hardware Settings (Windows only)

              ·         Set up a USB microphone (Mac OS)

              1. Choose Edit > Preferences      > Audio Hardware (Windows) or Premiere Pro > Preferences > Audio      Hardware (Mac OS), and set the following options:

              o        select an output device from the Default Device menu.

              o        select a buffer size from the Buffersize menu (Mac OS).

              1. Click OK.

              Audio Hardware Settings (Windows only)

              When you click ASIO Settings in the Audio Hardware panel of the Preferences dialog box, Premiere Pro opens the Audio Hardware Settings dialog box, which contains an Input tab, and an Output tab.

              Enable Devices

              Determines which connected audio device is routed into and out of Premiere Pro. If the device is an ASIO device, select the ASIO drivers for the device. If the sound card does not have manufacturer-supplied ASIO drivers, choose Premiere Pro WDM Sound for this setting. To enable a device be sure to install an up-to-date driver for the device (Windows.) If you want to input more than two stereo channels or monitor 5.1 surround audio, the device driver must comply with the ASIO (Audio Stream Input Output) specification. If it does not, only stereo inputs and outputs are available, regardless of the number of hardware inputs and outputs that are connected.


              Specifies the size of the buffer, in kilobytes, that Premiere Pro uses for recording audio.

              Device 32-bit Recording/Playback

              On the Input tab, check Device 32-bit Recording to record audio in 32-bit samples. On the Output tab, check Device 32-bit Playback to enable 32-bit playback.




              Map P2 clip audio for export to P2

              You can export audio in P2 sequences back to their original four channels if you map clip audio channels to 5.1 channels correctly. You can export to four channels, for example, if you want to transfer your final output file back to P2 media. Map the channels in your P2 clips before placing them into a sequence, and before using the File > Export To Panasonic P2 command.

              Note: If you leave P2 clips at their default mono channel mapping, use them in a sequence with a 5.1 master track, and export that sequence to P2, the exported file contains audio only in the third and fourth channels.

              1. Import the clips into a P2      project containing a sequence with a 5.1 master track.
              2. In the Project panel, select      the clip or clips you want to map.
              3. Select Clip > Audio      Options > Source Channel Mappings.
              4. Under Track Format, click      5.1.
              5. If necessary, click the 5.1      channel icons until they map the four source channels in this way:

              o        Ch. 1 to Left-Front Channel.

              o        Ch. 2 to Right-Front Channel.

              o        Ch. 3 to Left-Rear Channel.

              o        Ch. 4 to Right-Rear Channel.

              1. Click OK.


              Map sequence audio channels to audio output device hardware channels

              You can specify the channel in a target hardware audio device for each channel in a sequence Master track. You map channels in the Audio Output Mapping pane of the Preferences dialog box. Premiere Pro plays each sequence channel through the hardware channel you specify. For example, your project could have a 5.1-channel sequence, but your system hardware might support only two channels. You could specify which of the two hardware channels carries each of the six sequence channels.

              16-channel sequences, however, remain mapped to 16 output channels if the selected hardware device has fewer than 16 channels. For example, the selected device could have only two channels. You could then map only the first two channels of a 16-channel sequence to the two hardware channels.

              Note: In the Audio Output Mapping pane, you can map sequence channels to any supported hardware device installed in your computer, not only the device currently activated. However, you see and hear the channel mapping you specify for a device only when the device is activated. Mapping sequence audio channels to the device does not activate the device. To activate an audio hardware device, select it in Audio Hardware preferences. For more information, see Audio Hardware Settings (Windows only).

              To map sequence channels for a hardware device, you first select the device in the Map Output For menu. The list below the Map Output For menu shows the hardware channels supported by the device chosen. You then map sequence channels to each hardware channel using channel tiles.

              For example, if you choose a third-party 16-channel audio device, the list shows 16 hardware channels. If you choose a stereo device, the list shows only two hardware channels. Tiles to the right of each channel name in the list represent the three types of sequence channels you can map to that hardware channel: stereo, 5.1, and 16-channel.

              By default, Premiere Pro selects Premiere Pro WDM Sound (Windows), or Built-In (Mac OS) as the device. However, if your computer has a supported third-party audio device installed, it appears in the Map Output For menu. Select the third-party device to make its supported channels appear in the list.

              1. Choose Edit > Preferences      > Audio Output Mapping (Windows) or Premiere Pro > Preferences >      Audio Output Mapping (Mac OS).
              2. In the Preferences dialog      box, from the Map Output For menu, choose the driver for the device      desired. By default, Premiere Pro selects Premiere Pro WDM Sound (Windows)      or Built-In (Mac OS).
              3. Drag the desired sequence channel      tile into line with the desired hardware channel in the list.
              4. Click OK.



              Home / Using Adobe Premiere Pro CS5 / Importing, transferring, capturing, and digitizing

              Importing assets from tapeless formats

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              ·         Import assets from file-based sources with Media Browser

              ·         About spanned clips

              File-based camcorders from various manufacturers record video and audio into files of specific formats organized within specific directory structures. These formats include Panasonic P2 camcorders, Sony XDCAM HD and XDCAM EX camcorders, Sony CF-based HDV camcorders, and AVCHD camcorders.

              Camcorders recording in any of these formats typically record to hard disks, optical media, or flash memory media, not to videotape. These camcorders and formats are therefore called file-based, or tapeless, rather than tape-based.

              The video and audio from a file-based camcorder are already contained in digital files. No capture or digitizing step is necessary to bring them into Premiere Pro. Reading the data from the recording media and converting it to a format that can be used in a project is instead called ingest. Premiere Pro ingests files in any of these file-based formats from any of their media.

              Adobe provides workflow guides for P2, RED, XDCAM, AVCCAM, and DSLR cameras and footage on the Adobe website.

              XDCAM and AVCHD formats

              You can find the video files from XDCAM HD camcorders in the CLIP folder, written in the MXF format. XDCAM EX camcorders write MP4 files into a folder named BPAV.

              For information about the XDCAM format, see this PDF document on the Sony website.

              AVCHD video files are in the STREAM folder. For more information about the AVCHD format, see the AVCHD website

              The Panasonic P2 format

              A P2 card is a solid-state memory device that plugs into the PCMCIA slot of a Panasonic P2 video camera, such as the AG-HVX200. The digital video and audio data from the video camera is recorded onto the card in a structured, codec-independent format known as MXF (Media eXchange Format). Specifically, Premiere Pro supports the Panasonic Op-Atom variant of MXF, with video in DV, DVCPRO, DVCPRO 50, DVCPRO HD, or AVC-I formats. A clip is in the P2 format if its audio and video are contained in Panasonic Op-Atom MXF files. These files are located in a specific file structure.

              The root of the P2 file structure is a CONTENTS folder. Each essence item (an item of video or audio) is contained in a separate MXF wrapper file. The video MXF files are in the VIDEO subfolder, and the audio MXF files are in the AUDIO subfolder. XML files in the CLIP subfolder contain the associations between essence files and the metadata associated with them.

              Note: Premiere Pro does not support proxies recorded by some Panasonic P2 camcorders in P2 card PROXY folders.

              For your computer to read P2 cards, it needs the appropriate driver, which you can download from the Panasonic website. Panasonic also provides the P2 Viewer application, with which you can browse and play media stored on a P2 card.

              Note: To use certain features with P2 files, you first change the file properties from read only to read and write. For example, to change the timecode metadata of a clip using the Timecode dialog box, you first set the file properties to read and write. Use the operating system file explorer to change file properties.




              About spanned clips

              When a shot or take is recorded requiring more than the file size limit of a medium, a file-based camcorder starts another file, and continues recording the shot to that file without interruption. This is referred to as clip spanning because the shot spans more than one file or clip. Similarly, a file-based camcorder sometimes spans a shot across clips on different cards or disks, if the camcorder has more than one card or disk loaded. It records the shot until it runs out of room on the first medium, then starts a new file on the next medium with available space, and continues recording the shot to it. Although a single shot or take can be recorded to a group of multiple spanned clips, it is designed to be treated as a single clip.

              For P2 and XDCAM EX, Premiere Pro imports all of the spanned clips within a single shot or take as a single clip. It will import all the clips within a shot on a card when you select any one of them, provided none of the spanned clips is missing and the relevant XML is present. When one or more spanned clips are missing from a shot, Premiere Pro will import one or more of them depending on where the missing clips fall within the shot.

              To import a group of spanned clips, select one of them to import all of them. If you select more than one spanned clip, you will import duplicates of the whole group of spanned clips as duplicate clips in the Project panel.

              If the group of spanned clips itself spans two P2 or XDCAM EX cards, copy the full directory trees from them both to same-level folders on the hard disk before importing. For P2 media only, you can alternatively import clips spanning two P2 cards if both cards are simultaneously mounted to your computer.


              • 4. Re: Ultra Key and synch sound issue.
                shooternz Level 6

                Hey mate.


                Thanx for all the info, appreciated,  but I have been working intensively and sucsessfully with P2 footage for a long time.


                This issue is really unique in my experience and I need to take a look at a number  of factors.


                I am hoping someone maybe able to test and confirm ( or deny)  it .



                • 5. Re: Ultra Key and synch sound issue.
                  Colin Brougham Level 6



                  What flavor of 720p are you referring to: native or over-60? What frame rate are these clips? I don't have PAL footage to test, but would be happy to try to replicate with NTSC clips if you can give a little more detail on the nature of the footage you're using.


                  FWIW, I've been working on a project that (finished) is over half-an-hour, and is comprised almost solely of DVCPROHD 1080/24p recorded into OnLocation, keyed with Ultra, powered by MPE. I've had numerous other issues with MPE, but no synch issues that I've discovered. Apples to oranges, maybe, but at least it might point toward the 720p variety being the troublemaker.

                  • 6. Re: Ultra Key and synch sound issue.
                    shooternz Level 6

                    The footage is 720pN  (PAL)  Colin


                    The clips are absolutely in synch without the Ultra Key.  Only other effect is Fill Left on the audio track


                    I will spend a bit of time with it today after putting out another small "fire" in another project.


                    Looks like a day of troubleshooting stuff ahead of a night shoot tonight. 

                    • 7. Re: Ultra Key and synch sound issue.
                      Level 4

                      Hopefully when you get done in the morning you'll be driving opposite the rush hour traffic....so you can get home fast, eat a huge open roast beef sandiwich with mashed potatoes and gravy, and go right to bed !



                      • 8. Re: Ultra Key and synch sound issue.
                        Colin Brougham Level 6



                        I tried to replicate this here, with DVCPROHD 720p/24pN (P2 MXF), Ultra, and hardware MPE, but I couldn't detect any OOS issues. How far out of sync is the audio? Does it lead or follow the video?


                        Also, you mentioned:


                        Only other effect is Fill Left on the audio track


                        It probably doesn't have anything to do with this issue, but is there a particular reason that you're doing this? Using Fill Left suggests that you mapped the four mono P2 audio tracks to stereo; when you use the Fill Left or Right effect, you're essentially going back to what you started with (a mono track maps to both output channels if the master is stereo). There are some other problems with MXF audio, it would appear, such as crashes when the tracks are remapped and then Audio Gain is used. Anyway, if you disable the Fill Left effect, do you still have OOS issue? What about if you import another instance of the clip, and don't remap the audio (e.g. leave as mono)?

                        • 9. Re: Ultra Key and synch sound issue.
                          shooternz Level 6

                          I have not got back to this issue yet Colin so I cant answer some of your responses ...except..


                          When we shoot with the Panny mxf P2 we get 4 audio channels.


                          We generally have the audio coming in on Camera Input 2.  This allows us to have one level higher than the other.  Its kind of a safety thing.


                          I always map the first two as stereo and unselect the other two.


                          This brings in a single stereo track to a timeline / sequence.  Most convenient for timline mangement (less clutter)



                          When I edit it..I choose the best of the two, (Fill L.or R.)


                          Sometimes we boom and radio mic on  Cam input 1 and 2.  and use the same trick .


                          Thanx for taking a look.   I will be back into it tomorrow after I complete the other urgent project I shot last night.

                          • 10. Re: Ultra Key and synch sound issue.
                            Colin Brougham Level 6

                            Got it. I do the same thing, as far as mic setup and routing, so I follow you there. And, I'll oftentimes map two of the monos to stereo if I'm just picking up nat sound. Obviously, this is all workflow preference, but I like to keep discrete mics on discrete tracks/channels. That way if I need to dump from one mic to another for a moment--for example, when talent smacks the lav and you need to cover the 'thud' with the shottie--it's a simple enable and cut in. I'm not undoing anything to get the audio I need. Diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks...


                            As I mentioned above, the Fill effect and the remapping probably have absolutely NOTHING to do with this, but when you get back at it, try disabling first the Fill effect and then test without remapping to see if that corrects the issue. If I were a betting man, I'd point first at MPE and second, Ultra as the culprit, but it helps to strip away as many variables first. Who knows--you might have inadvertently stumbled upon a correctable bug.


                            We generally have the audio coming in on Camera Input 2.  This allows us to have one level higher than the other.  Its kind of a safety thing.

                            Man, I still do this... holdover from the Betacam days when you were ALWAYS supposed to use channel 2 for your mic input, since it was physically more distant from the video track on the tape. I guess the theory was that there was less chance of interference between the video track and the clean audio track, but this was probably more of an old shooter's tale than anything founded in scientific evidence. Old habits, though...