12 Replies Latest reply on Oct 4, 2010 10:28 AM by jancookphotography

    White balance when creating profiles

    DougKurn

      I'm shooting some portraits on a grey background and they have a magenta cast to them. Just neutralising them in the Develop module of Lightroom doesn't help the skin tones, so I thought I'd try and create a profile using the DNG profile editor. So I neutralise the white balance on the grey background and make some skin tone adjustments in the Color Tables, and a small tweak to the tone curve. I can export the profile out and it shows up fine, but when I apply it to the same image that I used to create the profile, the white balance doesn't change, which is not what I was expecting! Am I wrong to expect this to happen? The other changes seem to work fine.

        • 1. Re: White balance when creating profiles
          jancookphotography

          I am having the same problem.  My profile makes changes to the image I have open in raw but doesn't correct the color balance.

          I think that it should change the color balance but I am having to do a white balance too.

          • 2. Re: White balance when creating profiles
            thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

            Pretty sure DNG profiles are “applied” if you will, in the processing prior to white balance. In a way, that would make sense. You can then WB after selecting the profile as you normally would.

            • 3. Re: White balance when creating profiles
              DougKurn Level 1

              I think you're right. there seems to be a lack of good information about this that I can find anyway. One other thing that is confusing me is how the Adobe DNG Profile Editor and Gretag ColorChecker Passport produce completely different profiles from the same DNG of a Gretag Colorchecker chart. I assume that it has something to do with the base profile that is used in the DNG Profile Editor, but am just guessing.

              • 4. Re: White balance when creating profiles
                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                Its not unusual that you’d get different results from the X-Rite vs. Adobe profile generation. You’d see this if you build a profile for a printer using the same inkset, paper and Spectrophotometer but using two different vendors profile packages.

                • 5. Re: White balance when creating profiles
                  DougKurn Level 1

                  I can understand that there may be subtle variations as there are only a limited number of colour swatches in the reference target, but if you were to print the colour swatch target used for generating the printer profiles, using the newly generated printer profiles (from 2 different manufacturers) shouldn't the prints look the same? I assume (somewhat simplistically I admit) that the colour patches have a definitive reference value that should be reproducible, assuming every stays the same apart from software. In fact isn't that almost the point of profiling?

                   

                  I'm using your printer profile analogy here but obviously I would have thought that the same should apply to camera profiles too, so that the image of the colorchecker should look the same using two profiles from different manufacturers.

                   

                  But it is a confused world I live in :-)

                  • 6. Re: White balance when creating profiles
                    thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                    DougKurn wrote:

                    ...if you were to print the colour swatch target used for generating the printer profiles, using the newly generated printer profiles (from 2 different manufacturers) shouldn't the prints look the same?

                     

                    Close but not the same, especially with the Perceptual rendering intent which is totally subjective in terms of how its produced. IOW, the Perceptual rendering in ICC profiles (and presumably whatever “intent” if one exists in DNG profiles) is much like how we saw differences in E6 films. Ekatchrome, Velvia, etc were different, neither was colorimetrically correct and the manufacturers worked hard to produce a rendering they thought their customers would prefer.

                    • 7. Re: White balance when creating profiles
                      DougKurn Level 1

                      That's a good point, I hadn't thought about that, and the biggest differences I am seeing with the camera profiles is with the stronger colours so I guess that ties in with what you are saying.

                       

                      Thanks for your thoughts and comments.

                       

                      Doug

                      • 8. Re: White balance when creating profiles
                        jancookphotography Level 1

                        I have been doing that and it seems to work ok (doing a white balance after applying the profile).

                        It is just that when you make the profile the photo of the chart gets white balanced.

                        It seems like the profile should do the same thing to your other images when applied in RAW.

                        • 9. Re: White balance when creating profiles
                          Jeff Schewe Level 5

                          jancookphotography wrote:

                           

                          It seems like the profile should do the same thing to your other images when applied in RAW.

                           

                          Actually, if you think about it, you really WOULDN'T want a DNG profile to alter the white balance of an image...that would seriously limit the usefulness of that profile. DNG profiles are designed to adjust the color and tone rendering of a given camera's spectral response. However, white balance is a shot by shot situation.

                           

                          So, DNG profiles specifically DON'T take white balance into consideration. If they did, you could only use that profile for single white balance situations. The whole camera profiling issue is made far more complex that profiling a printer. You need a camera profile that allows color and tone adjustments over a broader range of light sources...compared to a printer that should remain consistent given a specific paper and printer setting.

                          • 10. Re: White balance when creating profiles
                            jancookphotography Level 1

                            I have a friend who makes a new profile for every job he shoots. He is trying to get the most accurate color he can.

                            From what you are saying, it sounds like that isn't necessary.  I could work off a couple of profiles. ..or does everything shift that often?

                            • 11. Re: White balance when creating profiles
                              thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                              jancookphotography wrote:

                               

                              I have a friend who makes a new profile for every job he shoots. He is trying to get the most accurate color he can.

                              From what you are saying, it sounds like that isn't necessary.  I could work off a couple of profiles. ..or does everything shift that often?

                              My experience has been one profile for daylight, one for tungsten and then a profile for any odd illuminant (say metal halide, etc) should get the job done.