1 2 3 2 Previous Next 65 Replies Latest reply on Oct 5, 2010 10:17 AM by the_wine_snob Go to original post Branched from an earlier discussion.
      • 50. Re: How This Forum Should Work
        Level 4

        Ok...another life lesson coming up...Lets Get Real...


        Geoff's initial post is not out of this world crazy.. it is pretty straight forward. He has stuff he needs to do and do it fast. like many of those here working for clients for money.

        This forum recently ( really recently) got a lot of attention by Adobe to be a part of a larger re-organization to improve it's poor technical help image because the telephone IT service and strict by the book ( rote ) solution of problems by that program offshore has not worked out so well for professionals.


        This thing ( video editing and all things re: avid, fcp, adobe ) is evolving very fast ...note computer platform improvements are incredible ...


        Sooo, on one hand I would not upgrade my whole workflow with a new version without keeping the old version going until I KNEW the new version enough to offer my customers the same fast good service they are used to...  IN other words, double up on some platforms and get the kinks out of the new workflow before transitioning over to the new version....  that alone takes some of the headache out of new stuff and deadlines.


        This forum has many "interests" and it is transforming as we speak. New adobe employees ( tech support ) are here now and fixing things and making this forum not just a "user " forum, but a forum that is really really responsible as an alternative to the telephone IT support it has had to date.  This will take a little time.


        Some people here are into different "markets"....some do weddings, some do industrials, some do family movies, some do tv commercials and some do feature films....lots of different "interests"...    no sense going on about this more..


        Your post , Geoff, has been well received and everyone ( trust me ) takes it seriously even if we joke aobut snakes. The main thing IMO is to HELP adobe ( the corporation ) continue to support and give resources to the new adobe employees who are here to transfer this very open public forum of "users" into a viable and good alternative to real fast dependable HELP for adobe product users, no matter where they are in the scheme of "products" they offer clients or family members....  from IPhones to Projection screens .


        So, that said, nobody needs to be "sensitive" about this issue to the point of being just plain MAD or DEFENSIVE....lets get real....


        this forum is in fact changing for the better in every way and I support Adobe and give them credit for realizing how valuable this forum is to their overall image and IN FACT their ability to solve problems and give solutions and also add value by suggesting alternatives to users ....


        and if you want to contribute a script to the snake movie thats ok too.



        • 51. Re: How This Forum Should Work
          Mortimer IOU Level 2

          Thank you Stan for bringing this back to the original topic (obviously not mandated in the Lounge). My own answer to the OP is yes, I agree that any poster that is really asking for help deserves a straight-forward answer. Whether it is an answer in detail, reference to another thread on the forum, or reference to Adobe help or another source may depend on the question. If anyone cannot bring themselves to do this, it is best to remain silent.


          The value of Adobe help is clearly in the eyes of the beholder, and is another topic altogether. All we, all of us, can do here is try and make the forum as useful and civilized as possible.


          Geoff Vane wrote:


          Forums should provide answers to questions.

          No matter how simple or stupid the question is.


          • 52. Re: How This Forum Should Work
            Level 4

            This sort of thing helps a lot too...the fact that adobe employees ( tech support aka Todd , Jeremy, etc ) are here now...


            OFFLINE -Help documents for Creative Suite 5 (PDF and HTML)
            http://blogs.adobe.com/premiereprotraining/2010/08/help-documents-for-creative-suite-5-pdf -and-html.html


            We can help ( as IMO most do ) by forwarding that sort of info to users with questions in a timely manner...


            Its not attitude really but a team effort to help each other...that matters ( though my snakes hang their heads in shame at the moment in their trailers --bad reviews hurt no matter what rag prints it )



            • 53. Re: How This Forum Should Work
              Geoff Vane Level 1

              I must say the Indian chat service of Adobe is great.


              I have a Matrox Axio with OEM software and some of the parts have been upgraded and some not.

              When a harddisk raid 1 had to be splitted into ordinary drives again, the Dutch telephone service refused to reactivate my PP2 which is the only one my Axio could work with. So, they keep my $10,000 system down, because it's partly OEM. That while I buy ANY Adobe upgrade blindly.


              For the first time in my life, I rammed down the phone receiver with quite some force and not so very nice words.


              Then I tried the Indians over at chat service. One minute and the case was solved.

              More Indian helpers please

              (those from India, to avoid confusion regarding American natives)


              For most programs, I can't follow much training. There is little time. I need to generate output.

              I have some training DVDs, but only Steve Holmes is good.

              I have no time for knee slapping jokes, how ever funny in those movies and tutorials.

              Written tutorials with arows and images are often way faster to get things done.

              But working with Premiere, Indesign, After Effects + Plugins, Lightwave 3D, Photoshop and Illustrator at the same time is enough to become half crazy.

              The shortcuts for example. When is Photoshop, After Effects en Premiere going to be harmonised in short cuts? Could prevent many mistakes a day.

              Plus my PC is not really working well with Adobe CS4; the the graphic card OpenGL is too weak and the Axio acceleration clashes with other operations.

              So, I'm gonna buy new stuf for about $30,000 and see if the usual suspects are not telling a lie this time, again.

              I've never had a PC configuration that worked stable; all of them crashed at least once every day for the last 13 years.

              So, now with 64 bit, it is PCs last chance to prove itself. If not, end of PC platform.

              • 54. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                Jeff Bellune Level 5

                All we, all of us, can do here is try and make the forum as useful and civilized as possible.


                • 55. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                  Jim_Simon Level 9

                  If you want documents for offline use, you can grab them whenever you like.


                  That's nice, Todd.  Very useful.


                  Now, how the hell do we get the internal Help system of each program to use THOSE instead of going to the web?  The way it used to work (and still should, in my opinion).

                  • 56. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                    Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                    > Now, how the hell do we get the internal Help system of each program to use THOSE instead of going to the web?  The way it used to work (and still should, in my opinion).



                    Please tell the folks on this forum what you want:


                    The people who create the content are not the people who control how it is accessed and displayed. I am in the former category; the folks on the forum that I linked to are in the latter.

                    • 57. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                      Tminus10web Level 2

                      Let me just add that the following response to a question... :

                      Hover your little mousey pointer thing over the 'support link' at the top of this page and type in a search for 'indigenous linguistics'

                      ... is both condescending and useless to a guy who already searched the knowlegebase but used the search term 'native tongues', not knowing the technobabble that would yield the right search result.


                      Most people will at least try a Google search or the relevant knowledgebase articles if they can, and avoid waiting on a reply from a forum thread.  The forum is a place to get in touch with knowledgeable people who can recognize flaws in your logic, or shortcomings in your understanding, and point you in the right direction.


                      And yet somehow there is a far-too-common (type 'A' personality) assumption/attitude that if the OP is new to a forum (any forums, not this one in particular), or if they are asking a seemingly novice question, that a condescending answer / personal attack is warranted.


                      Type 'A' personalities are defined as follows:

                      1. Time urgency and impatience, which causes irritation and exasperation.
                      2. Free floating hostility, which can be triggered by even minor incidents.
                      3. Competitive, this made them oriented towards achievement which caused them to become stressed due to wanting to be the best at whatever it may be i.e. sports or in work.


                      I'm just saying that maybe forum users might work together to discourage this completely useless approach in the forums.




                      ps - I realize that the definition of Type A Personality also describes most of us, which leaves me wondering if forums are not mostly a meeting ground for impatiently degrading each other by flaunting our technical superiority before we need to go back to competing with our co-workers.   Lol, just kidding... the vast majority of folks here have coddled me through my limited time here and it is much appreciated!

                      • 58. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                        Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        And yet somehow there is a far-too-common (type 'A' personality) assumption/attitude that if the OP is new to a forum (any forums, not this one in particular), or if they are asking a seemingly novice question, that a condescending answer / personal attack is warranted.


                        I'm just saying that maybe forum users might work together to discourage this completely useless approach in the forums.

                        Recently, someone reacted to a thread, and I was puzzled that they had taken apparent offense at something I had not noticed.  When I pulled up the thread, I saw that the main content was about a year and a half old, and did include some examples of what was all too common then - not much better than rtfm.  I have been very pleased at the change of tone in this group of forums, and very proud of the support that users get.


                        Encourgement to do our best is always good.  I guess my message too is that this forum has done exactly what you recommend, but it is a neverending quest.

                        • 59. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                          the_wine_snob Level 9

                          Actually, many forum regulars, and the MOD's, do discourage most of what you are complaining about.


                          I am curious about where those cited replies came from. While I have not read every post in all the Premiere and Encore fora, I have read most of them. Actually, I had read every post in the Encore and the PrE forum, before the forum change, and have gone back and done so again, since the fora went to Jive. I seem to have missed those replies along the way though.


                          Now, I do see some rather rude replies, and also probably useless replies in the Photoshop Mac forum. Not sure why that is.


                          I have also observed several rather rude initial posts from Mac-users in the PrE forum, and PrE 9 (first version to be ported for the Mac) in the few weeks that the Mac version of PrE was released. It almost appears that a certain segment of the user-base has a major sense of entitlement. They exhibit this with followup posts, 15 mins. later, with lines like, "it's been hours, and no one has replied. Adobe will be facing a law suit, if I do not get an answer in the next 20 mins.!" One similar post was on Sunday morning, over the Labor Day long weekend (USA). Not much traffic in any forum on such a Sunday. Also, it seems that it was posted about 3:00AM PST, as the OP was probably in Europe.


                          Now, there will always be posters, who cannot let an opportunity to preach go by. It is not that their response is wrong, but that it is not addressing the OP's problem. A better workflow might be the ultimate answer, but at the time of the post for help, the OP is already along the road, and needs help. Personally, I would attempt to address the poster's issue, and then do a PS with a suggestion for a better workflow, knowing full well that my workflow might not be the "ultimate" for someone else.


                          We all try to provide immediate help, and then suggestions on improvement of the entire process.



                          • 60. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                            I wanted to address the subject of condescension separately, as it can be a complex one.


                            There are several different fora in the Premiere group. While there is no given, it can generally be assumed that if one is posting to the PrE forum, they are less experienced, than say a poster to the PrPro forum. That is not always the case, but is a generalization, painted with a rather broad brush. It follows, that a poster to the PrE forum might also not be as experienced with their computer, as one using PrPro might be. It then follows that a user of PrE might also not have as powerful computer, as a PrPro user. Again, this is not always the case, but is where I begin to approach the problem.


                            I will spend a bit more time explaining things, and likely do more screen-caps, pointing to the exact setting, or button, on the premise that the PrE user might be newer to NLE work, and perhaps computers. When I move over to the PrPro forum, I usually will use just the terms, and not offer to hold the poster's hand quite so much, at least not initially.


                            It is very possible that a power-user with PrE will feel that I am talking down to them. A very few have pointed that out. In the PrPro forum, I've had several posters, who tell me I am assuming more about their level of expertise, than I should. No problem, as I can then go into greater detail, and offer more instruction on where to find things.


                            Also, forum subscribers have different styles. I am more of a William Faulkner, and will go into more details, even trying to cover all aspects of a concept, though the poster is focused in on just one. I want them to know what will happen, when they stray that well-defined path, as is likely to happen. Others are more like Ernest Hemingway, and go right to the exact answer. Ann Bens has this style. She is seldom wrong, extremely knowledgeable and versed in many wide-ranging aspects of NLE work. However, she is a person of few words, so will almost always be directly focused on the precise answer to the question, and seldom goes into much detail. Again, if I see that she has responded, I feel certain that the OP has gotten the answer to their exact question. Only comment that I may make will be a little "fleshing out" of the process, and some details on what might be encountered elsewhere. I believe that we both help posters, but just in slightly different ways.


                            Some regulars, like Harm Millaard, are a bit of each of us. In general, Harm is more like Ann, in that his replies are usually precise, using few words. However, if you ask him a question about the ultimate I/O configuration, be prepared for a complete book on magnetic storage. Again, he is seldom wrong, and I feel that the OP has probably gotten the precise answer sought. Now, some posters might find that Ann and Harm appear to be a bit terse. However, that same poster might feel that I have told them how to build a clock, when they only asked "what time is it?"


                            We see similar with the posters themselves. Some will state, "I have a problem with playback. What's wrong?" Not much to go on there, so we usually get into a session of 40 Questions. That is why I did an ARTICLE on how to ask a question, and what info would be so very useful to start. Others will come with all the necessary info, and will usually get a prompt answer for their specific issue, 'cause they did their homework.


                            Some feel that by posting the link to my article, I am being condescending, when all I am attempting to do is get the necessary info quickly, so we can focus on the problem and the most likely causes.


                            Most of us also use a rather linear process, when remotely troubleshooting a problem. We start with a rather broad palette of "likely suspects," and then systematically eliminate those. I had one poster, who stepped through that list of possible causes, and when we finally nailed the issue, asked, "why didn't you just give me that answer to begin with?" Well, that "answer" was not even on the first three pages of "likely suspects." It was a rather odd solution, and until the most likely causes were ruled out, was not revealed. I one is experiencing a BSOD, my first thoughts will always be:


                            1.) heat

                            2.) bad RAM

                            3.) PSU

                            4.) MoBo


                            If we rule those out, then, we can work towards major software incompatibilities, starting with drivers. Some posters do not appreciate that linear thinking. They liken us to a mechanic, who asks about the tires, when the client says "my car will not start." It is not so cut and dried, and what many do not realize is that with a computer, so very much is interrelated. They cannot imagine that a bad audio driver can shut down an NLE program, especially if they have not yet imported any Assets with Audio, into the Project. They also seldom realize how intensely a program, like PrPro, must interface with either the audio, or video driver. They point out that WMP works, so why not PrPro. Same with Assets. If VLC Player plays that file, why will PrPro not playback, when that file is on the Timeline. Well, editing is very different from playing, and VLC Player contains its own CODEC's and playback engine, and only relies on the audio and video driver at a very low level. Many can never be convinced that editing is different from playing, and feel that we are spreading BS. As few of us are farmers, we try to NOT do that.


                            Responding to a post in a product forum is not as easy as it looks.



                            • 61. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                              Tminus10web Level 2

                              The citation was from a forum post at forums.adobe... but it was not my intent to slander the individual who posted it, but rather identify with the frustration identified by the OP.  The post was since solved, but did receive a fair bit of debate and even not even the Adobe staff had immediate answers. 


                              Someone implying that it never occurred to me to hover my mouse over the link named 'support' and search out the answer is not only waisting both of our time, but somewhat offensive.  I do respect the vast majority of people with whom I've had dealings with here, but I could relate to the OP's frustration a little, so I thought I'd weigh in. 


                              Thought I had succeeded in keeping it light?!?!


                              Anyway, for the record, this is one of the better forums I've had opportunity to participate in.  I realize it's never perfect.  I should have just saved my two cents for a premiere lounge topic on a lighter note I guess... like the one about toilet snakes!


                              Coincidently, why is it that everytime I see you you are partaking in a glass of wine...



                              • 62. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                                Level 4




                                I am more of a William Faulkner, and will go into more details



                                Faulkner, Hemmingway !!!    


                                I thought you said you don't READ books ! ?  And now that you mention it, didn't Hemmingway describe in 60 pages a snail crossing the road once ??  hehe....


                                sorry, just being a trouble maker ...but seriously, some forums have a bad reputation you know ?  Like NYC sometimes has a bad reputation.

                                For example, I was working in lower Manhattan outside around the wall st area recently, and some tourists came by and asked, " Say, can you tell us where the Statue Of Liberty is, or should we just go 'F....' ourselves ? "


                                Sad how the city gets that sorta rep.

                                • 63. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                                  Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Wait, hmmm, yes, we are in the lounge...


                                  some tourists came by and asked, " Say, can you tell us where the Statue Of Liberty is, or should we just go 'F....' ourselves ? "

                                  Oh, that's always said with the utmost respect.  It's just outoftowner humor.

                                  • 64. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                                    the_wine_snob Level 9
                                    I should have just saved my two cents for a premiere lounge topic on a lighter note I guess... like the one about toilet snakes!



                                    Never! (Not the snakes though.) We can all benefit from critiques of the general forum responses. Often, there are things that we do not consider. I encountered a bit of that, when I started following the PrE forum - a different demographic there, and people, who needs from the forum. That opened my eyes greatly, and I think that I benefited in my interaction in other fora, as well.


                                    It also seems that more posters to the PrPro forum are coming from a more "consumer-oriented" background, than we say some years back. Having spent time in PrE, it's helped me approach those problems and the poster, from a different frame of reference. I hope that has helped them.


                                    The Lounge is a good place for your topic and I think that it is a good one, and one worth discussing. Thanks for posting it.


                                    Now, back to snakes in a toilet...



                                    • 65. Re: How This Forum Should Work
                                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                                      No, I AM a book person. Just bought a Kindle for my wife, but I can't see me doing that - might change my mind later on. At least I can read my Glenn Beck, without all the hippies throwing stuff at me...


                                      Yeah, certain cities do get raps. For instance, no one expects to see any real breasts in Scottsdale, or faces that have aged naturally. Seems that everyone has a sardonic grin, and their lips have not moved in 15 years. I often wonder how some of them can sleep, since there is not enough skin to close their eyes. We were at a big charity event a couple of years ago. I was standing around having drinks with a noted plastic surgeon. He would comment on almost every lady, who walked past - "those were done by Dr. X. Those were done by Dr. Y." One it went. Obviously, he was not at liberty to mention which ones were his patients, but I just sort of filled in the blanks. If he did not comment, those were likely his work...



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