34 Replies Latest reply on Aug 3, 2011 7:29 AM by Noel Carboni

    On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not

    Noel Carboni Level 7

      I just did some testing to see if Camera Raw 6.2 is using all the processor resources available.  Test system:  Windows 7 x64 Ultimate, dual 2-core workstation with hyperthreading.

       

      Here are my findings:

       

      Photoshop 32 bit, ACR 6.2:  I opened a raw file from my Canon 40D.  By watching the Task Manager and using my stopwatch I could see it used 1 core and took 15.4 seconds to open.

       

      Photoshop 64 bit, same ACR version, same file:  It used all cores and took 6.0 seconds to open.

       

      So the answer on whether ACR does multithreading is:  It depends!

       

      Lesson learned: Do raw conversions in Photoshop 64 bit

       

      -Noel

        • 1. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
          Hudechrome Level 2

          I tried ACR  6.2  again, this time doing a more intensive task; Adjustment Brush with 4 tweaks to do. Of course, it didn't render anything but it did show the change on screen. All four cores ran.

           

          I next did a liquify in CSPS5 and again, all four cores ran although, in both cases, core 4 took the heaviest hit.

           

          I didn't time the Liquify.

           

          So it appears that AMD not all cores will run all the time.

           

          Note: Tried liquify again, this time painting liberally to give lots of rendering and now Core 1 took the hit but Core 0 also in the act. 2 and 3 relatively quiet. 108 sec

           

          This sort of backs up what some of the engineering people at Intel surmised about the core usage by Photoshop. They expected to see maybe 2 cores in use, and I saw 2+ cores, that is the contribution by all 4 was to be seen but 2 an3 were minimal. So once more with even heavier coverage, including forcing an edge into transparency, Core 1 heavy, Core 0 also, core 2 some, Core 3 none.

           

          Ok once more. Now, Core 1 heavy (80 to 100%) but the other three cores even at 10% or so, until Core 1 dropped down to almost baseline, then Core 0 took over until core 1 recovered. 66 seconds.

           

          Windows 7 x64 Ultimate Athlon II 630, overclocked to 3GHz..4G DDR3

          • 2. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
            Hudechrome Level 2

            PS took a tad less than 3 sec to open.

            • 3. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
              Noel Carboni Level 7

              Which variant of Photoshop did you run?  32 bit or 64 bit?

               

              -Noel

              • 4. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                Noel Carboni Level 7
                function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                Hudechrome wrote:


                PS took a tad less than 3 sec to open.

                 

                Interesting.  Seems to depend on the image.  Someone sent me a 7D image that was substantially overexposed to test the "ACR creates pattern" problem, and it opened in under 3 seconds.  Another different 40D image of mine just took a hair under 5.

                 

                Perhaps the more detail in the image the longer the application takes.

                 

                Probably also has to do with the settings.  For example, I have noise reduction dialed-in to my default 40D settings, but not the default 7D settings.

                 

                -Noel

                • 5. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                  Hudechrome Level 2

                  Sorry. 64 bit. I don't do any testing at 32 unless i need to quantify Xp from time to time.

                   

                  I know that 32 bit CS5 takes forever to open on Win 7. Relatively speaking, of course.

                   

                  I'll go time it.

                  • 6. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                    Hudechrome Level 2

                    From a dead start after system reboot, it's 26 seconds for CS5 32. To even the playing field, I exited CS5 32 then re opened. It took 6-7 sec.

                     

                    Since CS5 64 has already been opened after system reboot, it seems fair to test it that way for 32.

                    • 7. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                      Hudechrome Level 2

                      Uh oh. Apples and oranges. I'm talking about opening CS5, not a file.

                       

                      I'll give that a try.

                      • 8. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                        Noel Carboni Level 7

                        How did a discussion on opening an image in ACR change to a discussion on how long it takes to open the Photoshop application?  I don't mind comparing times, but Photoshop startup speed isn't the focus of this thread.

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 9. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                          Hudechrome Level 2

                          Ok, 10,4 M image from Nikon D90, less than 2 sec from clicking it in Bridge.

                          • 10. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                            Hudechrome Level 2

                            Mea Culpa! Too much multi-tasking, and I am supposed to be retired! Corrections shown.

                             

                            I have a wet noodle if you want....

                            • 11. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                              Noel Carboni Level 7

                              Not to worry.  You just threw me off there for a while. 

                               

                              So... Fire up Photoshop 32 bit on your same system and time how long it takes to open that same .NEF file.  I think you'll find it takes much longer.

                               

                              -Noel

                              • 12. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                Hudechrome Level 2

                                I don't know how to do that. Bridge isn't a 32 bit program, and ACR simply opens no matter what same timing. I can Open XP and try it there but I think that's moot.

                                 

                                Perhaps we still aren't on the same page.

                                 

                                I am opening a D90 image from Bridge to ACR. Are you doing that or are you going from ACR to PS? If so, is PS minimized?

                                • 13. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                                  XP?!?  Is that an operating system? 

                                   

                                  Start Photoshop 32 bit first.  Find it in the Start menu as "Adobe Photoshop CS5" right next to "Adobe Photoshop CS5 (64 bit)".

                                   

                                  Then do File - Open, and pick a raw file.  Camera raw will display its dialog.

                                   

                                  Note the time between hitting Open Image and seeing it in Photoshop (or seeing a prompt asking you whether you want to convert the color profile).

                                   

                                  -Noel

                                  • 14. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                    Hudechrome Level 2

                                    Ok now I understand!

                                     

                                    The time for both 64 bit and 32 is about 2 sec or a smidgen less. Same routine: Open an nef in ACR, open to PS and time it.

                                     

                                    Actually both opening nef in ACR and subsequent opening in PC from ACR is essentialy the same...<2 sec. ea.

                                    1 person found this helpful
                                    • 15. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                                      Now THAT's interesting!  I wonder why I'm seeing no multithreading in the 32 bit case.  Could it be specific to the Canon converter?  Also, I have OpenGL disabled for 32 bit Photoshop...  Hmmm....

                                       

                                      -Noel

                                      • 16. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                        Noel Carboni Level 7

                                        Curiouser and Curiouser...

                                         

                                        I have a .NEF file on hand (from a Nikon D90).  It opens in a little under 2 seconds with 32 bit ACR and well under 1 second in 64 bit ACR.

                                         

                                        I think NEF must be easier to process than Canon CR2, and I still see a difference between 32 and 64 bit files.

                                         

                                        Lawrence, would you be willing to time the opening of a Canon raw file with both 32 and 64 bit ACR?  I have one here:

                                         

                                        http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/temp/IMG_2969.zip

                                        -Noel

                                        • 17. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                          Hudechrome Level 2

                                          No essential differences. Under 2 sec in both 32 and 64, with 64 opening  Cr2 in ACR in about 1 sec.Pretty hard to time.

                                          • 18. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                            Hudechrome Level 2

                                            I think I'll have to fix supper pretty soon.

                                             

                                            Did I tell you I multi-task? This isn't one of them!  Cooking is a single threaded operation!

                                             

                                            I'll check after dinner.

                                             

                                            TTFN!

                                            • 19. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                              Noel Carboni Level 7

                                              Hope you had a good supper!

                                               

                                              I think I know why my conversions are taking longer with the CR2 files.  I have these settings, which are not default:

                                               

                                              1.  I'm converting to ProPhoto RGB, 4096 x 6144 pixels, 16 bits/channel.

                                              2.  Sharpening is 15, Detail is 100.

                                              3.  Luminance Noise Reduction is 40, Luminance Detail is 100.

                                              4.  Color Noise Reduction is 4, Color Detail is 100.

                                               

                                              There are other differences, but I imagine these matter most.

                                               

                                              I'm seeing ACR 64 bit open this file with the above settings in 5.0 seconds.

                                              ACR 32 bit opens this file, same settings, in 11.2 seconds.

                                               

                                              Resetting the above parameters to defaults cuts the time to about 1/4 of the above.

                                               

                                              -Noel

                                              • 20. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                Hudechrome Level 2

                                                Hope you had a good supper!

                                                 

                                                Yes I did, thank you!  (Burp!)

                                                 

                                                There are other differences, but I imagine these matter most.

                                                 

                                                Yes I can see that I don't run any of the sharpening/nr stuff from ACR. I do all that in DXO. Their algorithms match the lens and sensor very well. Any additional sharpening I do using Smart Sharp, at very low values, running gaussian sharpening.

                                                 

                                                Some agressive filters, like B&W Infra Red generate noise levels, well not generate I suppose, but bring out noise and for that, I use Nik Dfine.

                                                 

                                                Always a tight rope act!

                                                 

                                                Is there really ACR 32 bit on the 64 bit installation? I can't tell.

                                                • 21. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 7
                                                  function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                  Hudechrome wrote:


                                                  Is there really ACR 32 bit on the 64 bit installation? I can't tell.


                                                  Camera Raw.8bi is a plug-in (it's really a DLL on a Windows system).

                                                   

                                                  64 bit Photoshop can only run 64 bit plug-ins.  32 bit Photoshop can only run 32 bit plug-ins.  Ergo, there are two ACRs, one 32 bit and one 64 bit.

                                                   

                                                  Need more proof?  Go look in these folders:

                                                   

                                                  c:\Program Files\Common Files\Adobe\Plug-Ins\CS5\File Formats

                                                  c:\Program Files (x86)\Common Files\Adobe\Plug-Ins\CS5\File Formats

                                                   

                                                  You have not tasked your copy with enough work to sense the difference between 32 and 64 bit threading that I'm seeing.  Set it to convert to the largest resolution and enable some of the fancy features like sharpening and noise reduction on one image.  Or convert 10 images.

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                    Hudechrome Level 2

                                                    So then if CS5 32 is not open, Bridge will automatically steer the image to 64 bit. seems a little redundant, because ACR runs without having PS open, so it would seem likely that so long as nothing is open, it is possible to run ACR,  click Done then open in either 32 or 64 bit. That is certainly true for files that have been processed in ACR.

                                                     

                                                    There is only one Bridge, true or false? 32 or 64?

                                                     

                                                    The more I learn about this software, the more I learn I don't know much! I don't even know what I don't know about it.

                                                     

                                                    The default path in 64 bit is for Bridge to automatically pick the 64 bit ACR , unless CS5 32 is actullay open.

                                                     

                                                    Is there a reason that ACR isn't stand alone in the 64 bit system so that the user can choose to go either 32 or 64 bit after the RAW process is complete? That would be benificial to some work flows, like if I have to use 32 bit plug-ins in Photoshop.

                                                    • 23. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                      Yammer Level 4

                                                      Good morning!

                                                       

                                                      Bridge is a 32-bit application, so Ctrl-R will open a raw file with ACR 32-bit.

                                                       

                                                      In Bridge, if you open a raw file with Photoshop (Ctrl-O), it will load Photoshop 64-bit by default, and open the raw file in ACR 64-bit.

                                                       

                                                      If Photoshop 32-bit is already open, it will be forced to open the raw file in ACR 32-bit.

                                                      • 24. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                        Level 4

                                                        Yammer P wrote:

                                                         

                                                        …Bridge is a 32-bit application…

                                                         

                                                        That is true of the Macintosh version, for sure.  Does it also apply to the Windows version of Bridge?

                                                         

                                                        Just curious.

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        Wo Tai Lao Le

                                                        我太老了

                                                        • 25. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                          Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                          I just want to follow-up on this old thread:

                                                           

                                                          With Camera Raw 6.4.1 on a dual quad core system I'm seeing virtually identical image processing times in both 32 bit and 64 bit Photoshop.  Measured with a stopwatch, I'm clocking 1.8 seconds to open a Canon EOS 40D image in BOTH cases.  It is also now possible to see CPU usage jump to 100% in Task Manager with both 32 and 64 bit runs.

                                                           

                                                          This is a significant change from when I first tested this.

                                                           

                                                          Thank you, Camera Raw team, for correcting whatever issues were preventing multi-threading in the 32 bit build.

                                                           

                                                          -Noel

                                                          • 26. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                            Hudechrome Level 2

                                                            If threads were the only issue, I would expect similar opening times between 32 and 64.  In my case, opening times in 64 bit are close to yours (slightly under 2 sec), but in 32 bit mode, it took 12 seconds. So it's more than threads.

                                                             

                                                            Here's my test setup:

                                                             

                                                            Open PS to either 32 or 64 bit.

                                                            Open Bridge

                                                            Select an Image.

                                                             

                                                            Apply an identical set of corrections. In my case it was Camera Calibration, Lens Corrections and Detail

                                                             

                                                            Open Image

                                                             

                                                            You don't use Bridge but that shouldn't matter.

                                                             

                                                            It would be interesting to open a batch, make corrections, then run  Save Image.

                                                             

                                                            My tentative conclusion is ...I don't have one. It occurred to me that because you are running dual quads of an earlier Intel processor, you probably have 8 threads. The AMD I use also only has 4 threads but I have only one processor.

                                                             

                                                            All this subject to re-evaluation after morning coffee!

                                                             

                                                            Lawrence

                                                            • 27. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                              Hudechrome Level 2

                                                              One thing I didn't check were the threads themselves.

                                                               

                                                              All four cores ran in the 32 bit mode as well as 64.

                                                              • 28. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                                Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                It's difficult to tell if multiple cores are executing code simultaneously using the Task Manager, because the system may round-robin through the cores at fairly fast intervals as the software runs through system calls, so you'll often see some activity on each core even if the software is only really executing one software thread.  The trick is to look and see if all of your cores push to 100% simultaneously during the conversion.

                                                                 

                                                                Have you updated to Camera Raw 6.4.1?

                                                                 

                                                                -Noel

                                                                • 29. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                                  Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                  I waited until core activities dropped near zero and watched all 4 cores come up together, then drop when the image appeared on the screen.

                                                                   

                                                                  I am up to date on all updates.

                                                                   

                                                                  This is of some interest because of how Bridge, ACR and Photoshop interact when running 64 vs 32. In 64 bit, clicking Done takes you to a blank PS workspace, and you have to choose Bridge to see the image. Or choose Open. In 32 bit, exiting ACR with done immediately takes you back to Bridge. So it's a rock vs a hard spot, depending on your flow. Hit Done in 32 bit, it opens in Bridge. Hit Done in 64, it doesn't.

                                                                   

                                                                  Generally, I do go directly from ACR to PS, so the 64 bit process comes up a winner. But if I am correcting in ACR but not needing it in PS, I click Done, then choose Bridge from the Tray. In 32 bit, this is automatic.

                                                                   

                                                                  Hit Open in 64 bit, <2 sec. Hit Open in 32 bit, >10 sec.

                                                                   

                                                                  Such a business!

                                                                   

                                                                  Maybe I'm missing a workaround here.

                                                                  • 30. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                    Hudechrome wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    I waited until core activities dropped near zero and watched all 4 cores come up together, then drop when the image appeared on the screen.

                                                                     

                                                                    Did they come up to 100%, or just 25%?  My point is that the OS could be switching a single thread between 4 cores at a rate of up to 1000 times per second.

                                                                     

                                                                    Hudechrome wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    Maybe I'm missing a workaround here.

                                                                     

                                                                    Or maybe the multithreading is based on non-trivial conditions...  My earlier tests were with an older version of ACR, but also on an older workstation - one I no longer have.  I assumed that multithreading had been changed because of the new version of ACR, but perhaps it's simply not multithreading in 32 bit mode on some systems.

                                                                     

                                                                    It would be nice to hear from some of the Adobe folks on why we're seeing these odd results.

                                                                     

                                                                    -Noel

                                                                    • 31. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                                      Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                      I have to change over the drivers for the new video card in XP, so I'll run a test over there. 32 bit only.

                                                                       

                                                                      One other thought: Do the Xeons in use have virtual cores, i.e 8 threads ea? How many threads do you see per processor in the resource monitor? You will only see 4 if there is no virtual core for a total of 8 for the machine. Otherwise 16 total.

                                                                       

                                                                      I also wonder if available memory has anything to do with it. Being that I don't have much memory in 32 bit, I would expect slowdown. What is surprising is that yours has NO difference because you also have memory limitations. At present, my 32 bit version of PS5 has less than 2G reserved. It certainly would account for the long load times as it is writing to scratch sooner.

                                                                       

                                                                      Aha! You have an excellent RAID!

                                                                       

                                                                      L

                                                                      • 32. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                                        Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                        I have only 4 actual cores in each of the two X5460s; no hyperthreading.  8 execution units total in Task Manager.

                                                                         

                                                                        Each of the two processors does have 12M cache...

                                                                         

                                                                        -Noel

                                                                        • 33. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                                          Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                          As I suspected.

                                                                           

                                                                          Cache doesn't seem to make a big difference in PS, but in Premier, it does.

                                                                           

                                                                          There are some strange things I have discovered chasing this down. I did install the ATI drivers in XP and checked out CS5 there. It took 7 sec for PS to open and the image show up from ACR. The second and subsequent trials down to 4-5 sec.

                                                                           

                                                                          So I went back to Win7 and tried again. Here's where it gets weird.

                                                                           

                                                                          Double clicking on a thumb in Bridge opens it in ACR 64. On the way to ACR, PS opens first. It took 2 min 13 sec to accomplish this after a fresh reboot of Win7. Over 2 minutes! That's no typo or mis-measurement. I tried it several times. However, if you wait  about 5 minutes (go get a cuppa while reboot is finishing, that figure drops to 45 sec. Subsequent reopening PS through Bridge to ACR is down to 20 sec.

                                                                           

                                                                          If you go directly to PS after reboot of Win7, it is far faster, booting up in 16 sec. Still not fast. Reopen times from PS icon is 7 sec.

                                                                           

                                                                          Using the 32 bit version of PS on Win7 returns this result: 12 sec for first opening 2 sec thereafter.

                                                                           

                                                                          Lawrence

                                                                          • 34. Re: On PC ACR is Multi-threaded and Not
                                                                            Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                            The long times you're seeing seem pretty strange indeed!

                                                                             

                                                                            Just for comparison purposes, I'm going to reboot Windows 7, start Bridge, and double click on a raw file (I'll even see if I can dig up a NEF around here somewhere to keep things similar to what you're doing).  I'll edit this post (assuming it hasn't been replied-to) with the results...

                                                                             

                                                                            Right after reboot, starting Bridge, double-clicking a raw file, and seeing it open in the ACR dialog took my Windows 7 x64 system 15 seconds.  There was quite a lot of disk activity.

                                                                             

                                                                            Lawrence, I'm not sure what's going on with your Windows 7 installation, but I'd say for some reason you're seeing excessively long times to do certain operations.

                                                                             

                                                                            -Noel