25 Replies Latest reply on Aug 4, 2007 6:51 AM by Newsgroup_User

    Are Frame that bad?

    Doug_Collins
      From what I've read on this forum so far, any time someone mentions frames they are shunned like the plague. I have read all the bad stuff about frames and understand why one might wish to avoid them, but in my limited experience I have not been able to find an alternative for a particular effect.

      I want to have a Flash sequence that runs seamlessly throughout all pages.

      Templates are good, and (although I haven't figured them out yet) SSI seems good too. But I believe both these approaches will cause the Flash sequence to reset and start over - not seamless at all.

      Is there an alternative, or am I doomed to live in the frames leper colony?

      Thanks,

      Doug Collins
        • 1. Re: Are Frame that bad?
          Level 7
          > I want to have a Flash sequence that runs seamlessly throughout all pages.

          Then frames are pretty much the only option.

          Now, you just need to decide if your need for a continuously playing flash
          file outweight all the drawbacks of frames for your site visitors.

          -Darrel


          • 2. Re: Are Frame that bad?
            Level 7
            FWIW IMO the only thing worse than frames is a Flash ani that plays
            constantly from page to page.

            Do you realize that constant motion is annoying to most people and will
            likely drive more visitors away than make them stay?

            --

            Walt


            "Doug Collins" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
            news:f884hk$ld4$1@forums.macromedia.com...
            > From what I've read on this forum so far, any time someone mentions frames
            > they
            > are shunned like the plague. I have read all the bad stuff about frames
            > and
            > understand why one might wish to avoid them, but in my limited experience
            > I
            > have not been able to find an alternative for a particular effect.
            >
            > I want to have a Flash sequence that runs seamlessly throughout all pages.
            >
            > Templates are good, and (although I haven't figured them out yet) SSI
            > seems
            > good too. But I believe both these approaches will cause the Flash
            > sequence to
            > reset and start over - not seamless at all.
            >
            > Is there an alternative, or am I doomed to live in the frames leper
            > colony?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Doug Collins
            >


            • 3. Re: Are Frame that bad?
              DC_Eric Level 1
              lol @ Walt I agree 100%
              • 4. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                Level 7
                :-)

                --

                Walt


                "DC_Eric" <rubino@comcast.net> wrote in message
                news:f88a8r$s5d$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                > lol @ Walt I agree 100%


                • 5. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                  Level 7
                  Yes - I agree with what's already been said....

                  --
                  Murray --- ICQ 71997575
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                  "Doug Collins" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                  news:f884hk$ld4$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                  > From what I've read on this forum so far, any time someone mentions frames
                  > they
                  > are shunned like the plague. I have read all the bad stuff about frames
                  > and
                  > understand why one might wish to avoid them, but in my limited experience
                  > I
                  > have not been able to find an alternative for a particular effect.
                  >
                  > I want to have a Flash sequence that runs seamlessly throughout all pages.
                  >
                  > Templates are good, and (although I haven't figured them out yet) SSI
                  > seems
                  > good too. But I believe both these approaches will cause the Flash
                  > sequence to
                  > reset and start over - not seamless at all.
                  >
                  > Is there an alternative, or am I doomed to live in the frames leper
                  > colony?
                  >
                  > Thanks,
                  >
                  > Doug Collins
                  >


                  • 6. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                    Doug_Collins Level 1
                    quote:

                    Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
                    FWIW IMO the only thing worse than frames is a Flash ani that plays
                    constantly from page to page.

                    Do you realize that constant motion is annoying to most people and will
                    likely drive more visitors away than make them stay?

                    --

                    Walt




                    Yeah, I have the same problem with TV.

                    Your point is well taken, but I think it's only true if the motion is in fact annoying. If done right it can really enhance a page, particularly if video is involved - which tends to be in constant motion.

                    I will continue to consider my options.

                    Thanks,

                    Doug Collins

                    • 7. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                      NateWeb Level 1
                      You could use Ajax to load new page content into a content div. It would work just like frames and keep the flash from refreshing.

                      Another option, and this seems like an annoying one, would be to call a javascript function on every link that passes flashvars to your flash movie. When the movie gets the flash vars it would fade out your animation graphics and then link to the next page. Not the option I would choose:P
                      • 8. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                        Level 7
                        > You could use Ajax to load new page content into a content div. It would
                        > work
                        > just like frames and keep the flash from refreshing.

                        Except when javascript is disabled or someone is trying to use a screen
                        assistive device.

                        --
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                        "NateWeb" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                        news:f8a7hu$8qb$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                        > You could use Ajax to load new page content into a content div. It would
                        > work
                        > just like frames and keep the flash from refreshing.
                        >
                        > Another option, and this seems like an annoying one, would be to call a
                        > javascript function on every link that passes flashvars to your flash
                        > movie.
                        > When the movie gets the flash vars it would fade out your animation
                        > graphics
                        > and then link to the next page. Not the option I would choose:P
                        >


                        • 9. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                          Level 7
                          > Your point is well taken, but I think it's only true if the motion is in
                          > fact
                          > annoying. If done right it can really enhance a page, particularly if
                          > video is
                          > involved - which tends to be in constant motion.

                          Art Directors think that.

                          Site users tend not to.

                          ;o)

                          Treat Flash like seasoning. It can really enhance a meal, but will destroy
                          it if you use too much.

                          -Darrel



                          • 10. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                            Level 7
                            > You could use Ajax to load new page content into a content div. It would
                            > work
                            > just like frames and keep the flash from refreshing.

                            And have the exact same problems as frames.

                            -Darrel


                            • 11. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                              Level 7
                              Darrel,

                              Brilliant! Precise and understandable. I like it.

                              I often tell clients I might use Flash in a website but I would never use
                              Flash for a website.

                              --

                              Walt


                              "darrel" <notreal@nowhere.com> wrote in message
                              news:f8ab6f$d7h$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                              >> Your point is well taken, but I think it's only true if the motion is in
                              >> fact
                              >> annoying. If done right it can really enhance a page, particularly if
                              >> video is
                              >> involved - which tends to be in constant motion.
                              >
                              > Art Directors think that.
                              >
                              > Site users tend not to.
                              >
                              > ;o)
                              >
                              > Treat Flash like seasoning. It can really enhance a meal, but will destroy
                              > it if you use too much.
                              >
                              > -Darrel
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              • 12. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                Doug_Collins Level 1
                                quote:

                                Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
                                > Your point is well taken, but I think it's only true if the motion is in
                                > fact
                                > annoying. If done right it can really enhance a page, particularly if
                                > video is
                                > involved - which tends to be in constant motion.

                                Art Directors think that.

                                Site users tend not to.


                                -Darrel




                                If you are correct (and I'm not convinced you are), then that would be a good thing because the people I hope to attract to my site will in fact be Art Directors.

                                Thanks for the creative advice.

                                Doug Collins

                                • 13. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                  Doug_Collins Level 1
                                  quote:

                                  Originally posted by: NateWeb
                                  You could use Ajax to load new page content into a content div. It would work just like frames and keep the flash from refreshing.

                                  Another option, and this seems like an annoying one, would be to call a javascript function on every link that passes flashvars to your flash movie. When the movie gets the flash vars it would fade out your animation graphics and then link to the next page. Not the option I would choose:P


                                  Thanks for this info. I know nothing about Ajax, other than it is a fine cleaning product, but I will look into it.

                                  Doug Collins
                                  • 14. Are Frame that bad?
                                    zagods Level 1
                                    quote:

                                    Originally posted by: Doug Collins
                                    quote:

                                    Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
                                    > Your point is well taken, but I think it's only true if the motion is in
                                    > fact
                                    > annoying. If done right it can really enhance a page, particularly if
                                    > video is
                                    > involved - which tends to be in constant motion.

                                    Art Directors think that.

                                    Site users tend not to.


                                    -Darrel




                                    If you are correct (and I'm not convinced you are), then that would be a good thing because the people I hope to attract to my site will in fact be Art Directors.

                                    Thanks for the creative advice.

                                    Doug Collins




                                    Exactly. Everyone here tends to approach from a best practice usability standpoint, and almost always they are right, but a lot of target audiences can best be met with a heavy dependence on, say, Flash.

                                    Somehow I don't think this
                                    http://experience.forzamotorsport.net/
                                    or this
                                    http://www.lollapalooza.com/default.asp?fd=1

                                    Has the same oomph with some CSS-driven HTML coding.


                                    • 15. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                      zagods Level 1
                                      Oh, and Patty? It was only a couple weeks ago.

                                      "> You haven't seen Flash frowned on throughout this forum? I guess I have a
                                      > completely different impression.

                                      Not at all. Years ago, when Flash was brand-new and was being poorly used by
                                      a lot of web developers ("splash pages", etc.) a lot of people had a
                                      negative impression of it. But I wouldn't take seriously anyone who claims
                                      that it's "rarely appropriate for web sites" these days. There's no
                                      reasonable factual basis for a statement like that. :-)"

                                      Here's your perfect example
                                      • 16. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                        Doug_Collins Level 1
                                        quote:

                                        Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
                                        > I want to have a Flash sequence that runs seamlessly throughout all pages.

                                        Then frames are pretty much the only option.

                                        Now, you just need to decide if your need for a continuously playing flash
                                        file outweight all the drawbacks of frames for your site visitors.

                                        -Darrel





                                        What about hide/show layers. What kind of issues does that raise?

                                        Thanks,

                                        Doug Collins
                                        • 17. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                          Level 7
                                          The reason for using or not using frames should be based on a) your site's
                                          needs, and b) your willingness to accept the potential problems that frames
                                          can create for you as developer and maintainer of the site and for your
                                          visitors as casual users of the site.

                                          I am down on frames because I believe that they create many more problems
                                          than they solve.
                                          Judging from the posts here, and the kinds of problems that are described,
                                          the kind of person most likely to elect to use frames is also the kind of
                                          person most likely ill-prepared fo solve the ensuing problems when they
                                          arise. If you feel a) that you understand the problems and b) that you are
                                          prepared to handle them when they occur, and c) that you have a need to use
                                          frames, then by all means use them.

                                          As far as I know, the most comprehensive discussions of frames and their
                                          potential problems can be found on these two links -

                                          http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php
                                          http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/


                                          --
                                          Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                          Adobe Community Expert
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                                          "Doug Collins" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                          news:f903ar$kk$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                          >
                                          quote:

                                          Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
                                          > > I want to have a Flash sequence that runs seamlessly throughout all
                                          > > pages.
                                          >
                                          > Then frames are pretty much the only option.
                                          >
                                          > Now, you just need to decide if your need for a continuously playing flash
                                          > file outweight all the drawbacks of frames for your site visitors.
                                          >
                                          > -Darrel
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >

                                          >
                                          > What about hide/show layers. What kind of issues does that raise?
                                          >
                                          > Thanks,
                                          >
                                          > Doug Collins
                                          >
                                          >


                                          • 18. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                            Doug_Collins Level 1
                                            quote:

                                            Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
                                            The reason for using or not using frames should be based on a) your site's
                                            needs, and b) your willingness to accept the potential problems that frames
                                            can create for you as developer and maintainer of the site and for your
                                            visitors as casual users of the site.

                                            I am down on frames because I believe that they create many more problems
                                            than they solve.
                                            Judging from the posts here, and the kinds of problems that are described,
                                            the kind of person most likely to elect to use frames is also the kind of
                                            person most likely ill-prepared fo solve the ensuing problems when they
                                            arise. If you feel a) that you understand the problems and b) that you are
                                            prepared to handle them when they occur, and c) that you have a need to use
                                            frames, then by all means use them.

                                            As far as I know, the most comprehensive discussions of frames and their
                                            potential problems can be found on these two links -

                                            http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php
                                            http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/


                                            --
                                            Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                            Adobe Community Expert
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                                            Murray,

                                            I am aware of your opposition to frames. I am looking for a suitable alternative to frames, seeing that I am "ill-prepared fo solve the ensuing problems when they arise".

                                            Do you have any suggestions on how to achieve my desired result without using frames? What kind of person would likely elect to use hide/show layers an alternative?

                                            Thanks,

                                            Doug Collins
                                            • 19. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                              Level 7
                                              Doug:

                                              There would be no alternative if what you want is continuously playing
                                              Flash.

                                              --
                                              Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                              Adobe Community Expert
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                                              "Doug Collins" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                                              news:f90608$3h5$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                                              >
                                              quote:

                                              Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
                                              > The reason for using or not using frames should be based on a) your site's
                                              > needs, and b) your willingness to accept the potential problems that
                                              > frames
                                              > can create for you as developer and maintainer of the site and for your
                                              > visitors as casual users of the site.
                                              >
                                              > I am down on frames because I believe that they create many more problems
                                              > than they solve.
                                              > Judging from the posts here, and the kinds of problems that are described,
                                              > the kind of person most likely to elect to use frames is also the kind of
                                              > person most likely ill-prepared fo solve the ensuing problems when they
                                              > arise. If you feel a) that you understand the problems and b) that you
                                              > are
                                              > prepared to handle them when they occur, and c) that you have a need to
                                              > use
                                              > frames, then by all means use them.
                                              >
                                              > As far as I know, the most comprehensive discussions of frames and their
                                              > potential problems can be found on these two links -
                                              >
                                              > http://apptools.com/rants/framesevil.php
                                              > http://www.tjkdesign.com/articles/frames/
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --
                                              > Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                              > Adobe Community Expert
                                              > (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
                                              > ==================
                                              > http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
                                              > http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                                              > http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                                              > http://www.macromedia.com/support/search/ - Macromedia (MM) Technotes
                                              > ==================
                                              >
                                              >

                                              >
                                              > Murray,
                                              >
                                              > I am aware of your opposition to frames. I am looking for a suitable
                                              > alternative to frames, seeing that I am "ill-prepared fo solve the ensuing
                                              > problems when they arise".
                                              >
                                              > Do you have any suggestions on how to achieve my desired result without
                                              > using
                                              > frames? What kind of person would likely elect to use hide/show layers an
                                              > alternative?
                                              >
                                              > Thanks,
                                              >
                                              > Doug Collins
                                              >


                                              • 20. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                                Level 7
                                                On 03 Aug 2007 in macromedia.dreamweaver, Murray *ACE* wrote:

                                                > There would be no alternative if what you want is continuously playing
                                                > Flash.

                                                Well, the alternative is to make the whole thing in Flash. That, of
                                                course, brings its own set of problems.

                                                --
                                                Joe Makowiec
                                                http://makowiec.net/
                                                Email: http://makowiec.net/contact.php
                                                • 21. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                                  Level 7
                                                  See - I didn't even consider that as an alternative....

                                                  --
                                                  Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                                  Adobe Community Expert
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                                                  "Joe Makowiec" <makowiec@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
                                                  news:Xns9981BFB5F8FB5makowiecatnycapdotrE@216.104.212.96...
                                                  > On 03 Aug 2007 in macromedia.dreamweaver, Murray *ACE* wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >> There would be no alternative if what you want is continuously playing
                                                  >> Flash.
                                                  >
                                                  > Well, the alternative is to make the whole thing in Flash. That, of
                                                  > course, brings its own set of problems.
                                                  >
                                                  > --
                                                  > Joe Makowiec
                                                  > http://makowiec.net/
                                                  > Email: http://makowiec.net/contact.php


                                                  • 22. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                                    Level 7
                                                    On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:16:56 +0000 (UTC), "Doug Collins"
                                                    <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:

                                                    >What kind of person would likely elect to use hide/show layers an
                                                    >alternative?


                                                    Since no one addressed this question, I will. The person likely to use
                                                    show/hide layers as an alternative would be the inexperienced and
                                                    uninformed person. Using show/hide layers in this context encumbers the
                                                    site with all the same problems that frames do, PLUS the user has to
                                                    download the entire site all in one page.

                                                    Gary
                                                    • 23. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                                      Doug_Collins Level 1
                                                      quote:

                                                      Originally posted by: Newsgroup User
                                                      On Fri, 3 Aug 2007 21:16:56 +0000 (UTC), "Doug Collins"
                                                      <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:

                                                      >What kind of person would likely elect to use hide/show layers an
                                                      >alternative?


                                                      Since no one addressed this question, I will. The person likely to use
                                                      show/hide layers as an alternative would be the inexperienced and
                                                      uninformed person. Using show/hide layers in this context encumbers the
                                                      site with all the same problems that frames do, PLUS the user has to
                                                      download the entire site all in one page.

                                                      Gary



                                                      Thank you for addressing my question, Gary. I am now informed, although still inexperienced. I guess that is why I'm having problems understanding how layers bring the same problems as frames. It seems like an entirely different problem to me - one you clearly point out regarding download burden.

                                                      I am beginning to like Joe's solution of an all Flash site. How big a problem is that except that it excludes those who don't have Flash installed - which is a problem even if you only have a little bit of Flash incorporated.

                                                      Thanks,

                                                      Doug Collins
                                                      • 24. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                                        Level 7


                                                        > I am beginning to like Joe's solution of an all Flash site.

                                                        some random things off the top of my head-

                                                        A user cannot return to certain "part" of the site without entering from the
                                                        start and clicking the flash navigation in whatever exact order you've
                                                        designed it. A user will probably have to learn or experiment to find out
                                                        what your navigation system is because many flash designers take "pride" in
                                                        inventing some new mystery meat navigation. A user probably can't print out
                                                        what they are looking at.

                                                        Put another way- all flash is great for an unattended demo like at a
                                                        conference kiosk. Ever notice people ready to break the screen on those
                                                        kiosks before they swear and walk away?

                                                        --
                                                        Alan
                                                        Adobe Community Expert, dreamweaver

                                                        http://www.adobe.com/communities/experts/



                                                        • 25. Re: Are Frame that bad?
                                                          Level 7
                                                          On Sat, 4 Aug 2007 06:38:51 +0000 (UTC), "Doug Collins"
                                                          <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:

                                                          > Thank you for addressing my question, Gary. I am now informed, although still
                                                          >inexperienced. I guess that is why I'm having problems understanding how layers
                                                          >bring the same problems as frames. It seems like an entirely different problem
                                                          >to me - one you clearly point out regarding download burden.

                                                          Generally speaking, the main problems with frames:

                                                          1. Inability to bookmark specific information.
                                                          2. Inability to send someone a link to specific information.
                                                          3. Search engines.
                                                          4. Back button not working correctly.
                                                          5. Reload button not working correctly.
                                                          6. Problems printing.

                                                          Consider a page containing the whole site built using show/hide layers.
                                                          It's all one page. The same issues are still there. Really, *any*
                                                          solution which precludes loading a new page will encounter those.

                                                          > I am beginning to like Joe's solution of an all Flash site. How big a problem
                                                          >is that except that it excludes those who don't have Flash installed - which is
                                                          >a problem even if you only have a little bit of Flash incorporated.

                                                          You still have the same issues.

                                                          Gary