17 Replies Latest reply on Dec 14, 2010 2:27 AM by Jackho9

    Camera Raw 6.3 request

    sjwprod1

      When I try and edit a Lightroom 3 raw file with Photoshop CS5 I get a message that I have to upgrade my PD camera raw to 6.3...however, since 6.3 does not exist and cannot be downloaded, how can I get my file opened in PS with the RAW edit window before opening the file in PS?

       

      Have others had this issue with latest version of LR 3?

        • 1. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
          Noel Carboni Level 7

          Posting information about the particular file you are trying to open - i.e., what camera is it from - may be helpful here.

           

          -Noel

          • 2. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
            Eigenmeat2

            It would be to nice to support the Samsung TL350 in ACR 6.3 too. It's a really nice compact with a very usable raw mode!

            • 3. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
              Yammer Level 4

              Any requests should be added to the Feature Request Thread, shown above the discussions list. That's where the developers look.

              • 4. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                Which camera do you have?

                • 5. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                  gavcam

                  I am getting the same message after installing the release candidate for Lightroom 3.3 and camera raw 6.3 release candidate in to light room.

                   

                  I wonder why I did not get the option when installing the Camera Raw 6.3 RC to install into LR3.2 and Photoshop CS5 as both products use Camera raw.

                   

                  My Camera is 5DMkII

                  • 6. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                    Level 4

                    gavcam wrote:

                     

                    …I wonder why I did not get the option when installing the Camera Raw 6.3 RC to install into LR3.2 and Photoshop CS5 as both products use Camera raw…

                     

                    No, Lightroom DOES NOT use the Camera Raw plug-in at all.  The pipeline of the conversion image in LR is very similar to the conversion engine in ACR, but it is NOT Camera Raw.  LR does not use a plug-in, that's why the whole application has to be updated when there's a release of a new version, usually shortly after the corresponding ACR plug-in gets released.

                     

                    Photoshop and Bridge read the same ACR plug-in from the same default install location.  The p[lug-in gets installed only in one single location.  There can never be more than that one Camera Raw plug-in installed.

                     

                     

                     

                    ____________

                    Wo Tai Lao Le

                    我太老了

                    • 7. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                      gavcam Level 1

                      Ok thanks

                       

                      So what I need is to get Camera Raw 6.3 RC for Photoshop CS5 so it is compatable with LR3.3 RC

                      • 8. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                        MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                        Yes.

                        • 9. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                          Ace Mandu

                          Camera Raw 6.3 Workflow Options currently allows selection of Adobe, ColorMatch, ProPhoto and sRGB color spaces.  Is it possible to add the Melissa RGB space to the selections?  This would allow completely seamless optional use of LR3 or ACR/CS5.  I've set Melissa as the default space in several other editors which I occasionally use plus CS5, which I use a lot.

                          • 10. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                            Jeff Schewe Level 5

                            Ace Mandu wrote:

                             

                            Is it possible to add the Melissa RGB space to the selections?  This would allow completely seamless optional use of LR3 or ACR/CS5.  I've set Melissa as the default space in several other editors which I occasionally use plus CS5, which I use a lot.

                             

                            So..exactly what do you think "Melissa RGB' is?

                             

                            And no, you can't use that color space in Camera Raw...just use ProPhoto RGB which aside from not being linear, is the same working space colors but in a 1.8 gamma (and if you are working in 16 bit in Photoshop will have no functional differences than ACR's internal color space which is ProPhoto RGB colors and a linear gamma-which is NOT Melissa RGB which is Pro Photo RGB colors and a sRGB tone curve).

                            • 11. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                              Ace Mandu Level 1

                              Thanks for the quick response Jeff.

                               

                              So..exactly what do you think "Melissa RGB' is?

                               

                              I think it's the ProPhoto RGB space modified to respond to input data differently.

                               

                              I observe that a number of "modified" versions of the ProPhoto ICC profile are available; I've found and downloaded ProPhoto, ProPhoto D65, ProPhoto Gamma 2.2, ProPhoto Gamma 2.2 D65, Melissa and Melissa D65.

                               

                              I have opened two instances of an image in CS5 and "Assigned" these (and other color spaces like Adobe RGB and sRGB) to one of them and note that every one displays differently on my screen.  My perception is that Melissa provides the most pleasing depiction of the image.  It appears to me to exhibit more contrast and be slightly darker.  It also appears to more closely match my printed output during soft-proofing and in reality.

                               

                              And no, you can't use that color space in Camera Raw...just use ProPhoto RGB which aside from not being linear, is the same working space colors but in a 1.8 gamma (and if you are working in 16 bit in Photoshop will have no functional differences than ACR's internal color space which is ProPhoto RGB colors and a linear gamma-which is NOT Melissa RGB which is Pro Photo RGB colors and a sRGB tone curve).

                               

                              Does conversion from one displayed color space to another cause some loss of image quality?  I have thought that it did, and for that reason, it would be best to imbed an ICC profile in the image as the very first step in processing, then set every phase of the processing to honor the imbedded profile.  This concept is violated by ACR; I note that passing an image with an imbedded Melissa profile to ACR results in ACR reporting that the image is profiled with ProPhoto RGB.  Further, when the image is opened from ACR into CS5, it is detected as having the ProPhoto Profile.

                               

                              The display profile used by LR3 is Melissa and can not be changed, therefor, it would be desirable to set Melissa as the default color space in CS5 and any other editor that I might want to use, such as Nikon's Capture NX 2, if I intend to occasionally use LR3 (plus, I like the Melissa rendition).

                               

                              If I understand your statements, we are stuck with an unchangeable color space in ACR (a modified version of ProPhoto RGB) and an unchangeable version of Melissa RGB in LR3.  Is this correct?  Maybe more to the point, am I wrong about any of my assertions, perhaps most importantly, the thought that conversion from one color space to another is detrimental?

                               

                              I realize that this is an "involved" subject that might benefit from an extended explanation.  Have you addressed these issues in one of your essays?  I have copies of your "Camera Raw with Adobe Photoshop CS5" book and Martin Evening's "Adobe Photoshop for Photographers" in which you are frequently quoted, plus a number of your essays.  I haven't found answers to my concerns yet, but would sure appreciate any pointers you might pass along.

                               

                              Thanks,

                               

                              Rob

                              • 12. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                                Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                Ace Mandu wrote:

                                 

                                If I understand your statements, we are stuck with an unchangeable color space in ACR (a modified version of ProPhoto RGB) and an unchangeable version of Melissa RGB in LR3.  Is this correct?  Maybe more to the point, am I wrong about any of my assertions, perhaps most importantly, the thought that conversion from one color space to another is detrimental?

                                 

                                Camera Raw and Lightroom use the exact same processing color space; ProPhoto RGB with a linear gamma. That is not "Melissa RGB". Melissa RGB is the Develop display space which is an sRGB tone curved gamma instead of a specific color space that can be set as in ACR. The readouts and histogram display are what Melissa RGB is used for in Lightroom.

                                 

                                And yes, Camera Raw will only output in one of the 4 built-in color spaces. Lightroom can output in any RGB color space such as a working space or a printer profile. And I would suggest that "assigning" different and various working space profiles is a mistake...if you assign a different color space to an image all you are doing is changing what the numbers mean, not changing the numbers. Profiles are not designed to be used for color correction, they are designed to represent a fixed color meaning. If you take an image from ACR and assign a different profile in Photoshop and see some sort of improvement then I would suggest that your tone and color settings inside Camera Raw are wrong....the fact that the image may look "better" is actually sort of a accidental result and you should be asking yourself why?

                                 

                                As for transforming from one color profile to another, yes it's "lossy" in that the numbers in  a file get changed. But if you are working in 16 bit, going from Pro Photo RGB (the real one) to an altered gamma version is very, very unlikely to be seen let alone cause image problems. Yes, it's a transform but not nearly as disruptive of the image data as going from RGB to Lab for example.

                                 

                                I'm afraid you really are barking up the wrong tree. I would not suggest trying to use different assigned profiles as a color correction technique. The only person I know who has done so successfully is Joe Holmes and his array of Chroma Variant ICC profiles. But this is a very advanced way of using various working spaces for specialized color solutions and not as a substitute for proper tone and color adjustments.

                                • 13. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                                  Ace Mandu Level 1

                                  I'm glad that I submitted these posts as your answers are pointing out some of my misconceptions.

                                   

                                  Camera Raw and Lightroom use the exact same processing color space; ProPhoto RGB with a linear gamma. That is not "Melissa RGB". Melissa RGB is the Develop display space which is an sRGB tone curved gamma instead of a specific color space that can be set as in ACR. The readouts and histogram display are what Melissa RGB is used for in Lightroom.

                                   

                                  You say that the Melissa RGB color is a "Develop display space".  Does that mean it's similar to the LAB (not LAB mode selection) intermediate working space used by the Adobe Color Engine and that it is not appropriate to imbed it in an image for use in mapping the image to another color space such as that belonging to my printer/paper/ink combination?

                                   

                                  Do you agree that setting all of my image color spaces (in the Preferences or Color Settings panels in Bridge, CS5 and other viewers and editors, like Nikon Capture NX 2, to ProPhoto will be the least problematic and potentially highest image quality selection that is affected by color space selection?

                                  • 14. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                                    MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                    No, Melissa RGB is not similar to LAB in any way. (It is possible to convert from one to the other, but that is true of any colorimetrically-defined RGB color space.)

                                     

                                    The term "develop display space" in this context means that the space is only used for the purposes of displaying the histogram, RGB readouts, and similar information during the photographic development process.  Nothing more.

                                     

                                    (For internal processing, Camera Raw and Lightroom use a variety of color spaces & encodings, depending on the nature of the image processing being done.)
                                    • 15. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                      Ace Mandu wrote:

                                       

                                      Do you agree that setting all of my image color spaces (in the Preferences or Color Settings panels in Bridge, CS5 and other viewers and editors, like Nikon Capture NX 2, to ProPhoto will be the least problematic and potentially highest image quality selection that is affected by color space selection?

                                       

                                      I would agree that Pro Photo RGB in 16 bit would be the "least problematic and potentially highest image quality" yes...only Pro Photo RGB can contain ALL the colors your camera can capture and all the colors today's printers can print. For printing at a photo lab, you may need to transform from PP RGB to either Adobe RGB or sRGB (or the lab's output profile). I wouldn't send ProPhoto RGB unless the lab was color management savvy...

                                       

                                      I also think working in ProPhoto RGB/16 bit will be the best long term archival color space. I'm not sure about Capture NX's ability to use PP RGB and PP RGB would not be a good working space for the web. I would do a color transform from PP RGB to sRGB for the web.

                                       

                                      And to be accurate, I think Photoshop actually uses CIE XYZ as the intermediate color space for color transforms between color spaces. Pretty sure Photoshop quit using Lab a while ago...and Eric is correct in that internally, Camera Raw/Lightroom does some exotic color transforms under the hood, but the main color space is Pro Photo RGB with a linear gamma.

                                      • 16. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                                        Ace Mandu Level 1

                                        Jeff and Eric,

                                         

                                        Thanks for getting me back on track.  I've been using ProPhoto exactly as you confirm/suggest for the last year or so, but became distracted by my musings (wrong) as to the reasons that LR3 employed Melissa and by reading about the alternative versions of ProPhoto RGB.

                                         

                                        So, now I can quit wasting large amounts of my time and what I hope was only a small amount of yours and get back to producing something.

                                         

                                        Thanks again for your patience and thoughtful responses.

                                         

                                        Rob

                                        • 17. Re: Camera Raw 6.3 request
                                          Jackho9

                                          Ace et. al.,

                                           

                                          FYI, Capture NX2 does allow the use of ProPhotoRGB, Melissa, DCAM or any other well defined working color space.  IMHO it would be useful for ACR to do as well - for the following reasons:

                                           

                                          1) Data integrity: any conversion from one color space to another involves the (perhaps hard to perceive but nevertheless substantial) introduction of quantization and noise, so it would be best to choose a working color space once and stick with it throughout post processing - especially if you print your own.

                                          2) The four color spaces offered by ACR for output are very limiting: some people consider ProPhotoRGB to be too big, inefficient, with the wrong reference white and the wrong gamma curve; AdobeRGB to be too small, with the wrong gamma curve; ColorMatch to be worse than AdobeRGB; sRGB way too small. 

                                           

                                          Not everybody takes their images from ACR directly into CS5, which is apparently partly able to compensate for the shortcomings of some of the four (e.g. the shadow-noise-amplifying perfect gamma curve of aRGB or PPRGB) through its excellent Adobe Color Engine.  So if someone who has kept up with the times,  like Ace above, wants to use MelissaD65 as his working color space, he should be able to when working with industry leading software.

                                           

                                          Jack