10 Replies Latest reply on Sep 25, 2010 5:30 PM by Vit Novak

    ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2

    redcrown on guard Level 1

      I've been using a 5D2 for 18 months now, and a 1Ds for years before that, and I've learned what to expect from the different Adobe profiles in ACR.

       

      Now I'm helping a guy who has a 7D. When processing the 7D raw files in ACR 6, one of the things I noticed was that the canned profiles for the 7D behave opposite from the 5D2 and 1Ds.

       

      For example, on the 5D2 and 1Ds, the Camera Faithful profile always lowers the overall brightness of the image (compared to the default Adobe Standard profile). Almost a full stop, mostly in the highlights. Color rendition is different too, of course, but the brightness difference is most noticable. I sometimes find Camera Faithful useful for taming highlights.

       

      But on the 7D, the Camera Faithful profile increases brightness. Mostly in the shadows and midtones. Kind of like adding fill light. The highlights are left unchanged. All the other "Camera" profiles for the 7D also increase brightness over the Adobe Standard profile.

       

      I've made many custom profiles for the 5d2 and 1ds using the color checker and DNG profile editor. They show only minor differences from the Adobe Standard, and then only in heavily saturated colors. They show almost no difference in brightness.

       

      So I'm just curious. Why would the Adobe supplied profiles vary so much for different camera models. I understand each model is different, and thus profiles are different. But I would expect the "delta" from the Adobe Standard profile to be roughly the same across models.

        • 1. Re: ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2
          dorin_nicolaescu Level 5

          So I'm just curious. Why would the Adobe supplied profiles vary so much for different camera models. I understand each model is different, and thus profiles are different. But I would expect the "delta" from the Adobe Standard profile to be roughly the same across models.

          The camera-specific profiles are intended to mimic Canon's own picture styles. If Canon made 5D's Faithful different from 7D's — so did Adobe. At least that's the intention, as I understand. There's no reason to expect that one camera's Faithful DNG profile will match one from other camera.

           

          How do the Faithul profiles for bot cameras behave in DPP?

          • 2. Re: ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2
            Noel Carboni Level 7

            I was told, a few weeks ago, that "Camera Standard" was the profile Adobe makes like the camera manufacturer's interpretation at default settings.  Now you're implying it's "Camera Faithful".

             

            I'm curious:  Which is it supposed to be?

             

            I must have missed the memo.

             

            In any case, neither is particularly close for my Canon 40D, though "Camera Standard" seems to be closer.

             

            -Noel

            • 3. Re: ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2
              MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

              Camera Standard (and the various other Camera-prefixed profiles) for Canon models will roughly match what you'd get out of DPP (as opposed to the camera JPEG) at defaults, with the various auto corrections disabled (e.g., peripheral illumination correction, auto lighting optimizer, etc.).

              • 4. Re: ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2
                MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                Camera Faithful uses a tone curve with less contrast than the default Adobe Standard curve, so you'll likely see some lightening of the shadows if you compare the two directly.

                • 5. Re: ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2
                  Vit Novak Level 3

                  Noel, "Camera Standard" profile is the profile that should give similar results as DPP with "Standard" picture style selected with saturation, contrast etc at default

                   

                  "Camera Faithful" profile is the profile that should give  similar results as DPP with "Faithful" picture style selected with  saturation, contrast etc at default

                   

                  They slightly differ from both DPP and in camera jpeg in case of 400D also, so I'm currently working, as experiment only, on my own program to make better calibration - it's not an easy task ... but first results are quite promissing ...

                  • 6. Re: ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2
                    redcrown on guard Level 1

                    Thanks to all, especially Eric, for the responses. Took me a while to work the Canon DPP and DNG Profile Editor programs in some more experiments. I use these so rarely I always have to re-do the learning curve.

                     

                    Like most, I suspect, I've learned that using ACR to match in-camera jpegs or DPP processing is doable, but a sometimes difficult task. Personally, I don't care. I like what ACR does and use it exclusively. But I remained curious why I was getting such different, and opposite results on 5D2 images vs. 7D images.

                     

                    By looking at the tone curves in both the DNG Profile editor and DPP, the answer was clear. DPP has fairly consistent curves for the various profiles, while the Adobe profiles vary considerably.

                     

                    The following are composite charts I made from screen caps, plus a little layering in Photoshop to superimpose the curves. In the DPP curves it's easy to see that the "Faithful" and "Neutral" curves are slightly lower than the curves for the "Standard", "Portrait", and "Landscape" profiles. And the DPP curves are consistent across the 3 camera models I tested.

                     

                    The Adobe profiles, however, vary considerably between camera models. For the 1Ds, the Adobe Faithful/Neutral curve is slightly higher than the Standard curve. It raises tones fairly evenly across the entire tonal range.

                     

                    For the 5D2, the Adobe Faithful/Neutral curve is lower than the Standard, and more so in the midtones than in highlights and shadows.

                     

                    For the 7D, the Adobe Faithful/Neutral curve is lower than the Standard, mostly in the highlights, but only slightly.

                     

                    No real point here, I guess, other than understanding that Adobe profiles are not consistent across camera models. I had come to prefer the Camera Faithful profile for my portrait shots with the 5D2 because I felt it gave more pleasing skin tones by lowering the hot spots. When I tried to demonstrate that to my "student" with his 7D I got the opposite effect, which led to my confusion.

                     

                    http://kellyphoto.smugmug.com/photos/1021388464_yNmzT-O.jpg

                     

                    http://kellyphoto.smugmug.com/photos/1021388493_Vdd2R-O.jpg

                    • 7. Re: ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2
                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                      Thanks for the follow-up.  Very interesting information!

                       

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                      redcrown on guard wrote:


                      the Adobe profiles vary considerably.

                       

                      You have once again discovered, as many have, that Adobe is a curious combination of art and science.

                       

                      -Noel

                      • 8. Re: ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2
                        Vit Novak Level 3

                        From what I found out so far, approach to calibration in Adobe also seem to undergo some changes during time, so it's understandable that not all profiles are equal

                         

                        So Adobe standard profiles for recent cameras are quite different than Adobe standard for older cameras. Older profiles don't seem to be close to colorimetric rendition, while new profiles seem to be. Also, older profiles are de facto single-illuminant, while new profiles are dual illuminant (a sort of)

                         

                        But radical change is in Camera profiles. So far, there are profiles for two cameras (Canon 550D and Nikon D3S) where different approach to color conversion is used, and this approach is better for several reasons (one of them was discussed several months ago).

                         

                        However, looking at profile for 550D, I feel there is still room for improvement ...

                        • 9. Re: ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2
                          Noel Carboni Level 7

                          Regarding room for improvement:

                           

                          One of the things I found when I was fooling with the profile editor (back a few years now) was that at the time it was not hard to make a profile that worked with a default EV setting of something less than 0 (e.g., -0.5 EV) that recovered more highlights than the default profiles did at 0 EV.  The profile brightened everything else up so that the exposure came out about right overall, but rolled off the highlights instead of clipping them.  Voila, instant dynamic range increase, and very handy for experimenting with "exposing to the right".

                           

                          Though I now use the Camera Standard profile (with lots of color tweaks) I still convert with a default of a slightly negative EV value by default so as not to lose highlights that are really there in my 40D raw images.

                           

                          -Noel

                          • 10. Re: ACR profile difference for Canon 7D vs. 5D2
                            Vit Novak Level 3

                            Yes, baseline exposure value is a kind of rudiment from the days when ACR didn't use profiles, so it was necessary to adjust brightnes to similar level as photos from camera. So when used with raws from  my 400D (and 40D probably the same), top 0.25 EV is cut off, which is not the case in DPP or photos from the camera. If I apply recover slider, this headrom is recovered, but colors are changed (they are not most precise with recover 0 anyway)