36 Replies Latest reply on Oct 7, 2010 5:37 AM by Bill_Janes

    Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??

    Lou Dina Level 3

      Hi. I am looking for the tutorial and documentation on Adobe DNG Profile Editor (v 1.0.0.39 beta 2). I assume this is the latest release, but if not, I would appreciate a link to the latest. I tried downloading documentation and tutorial from the following link, but the site never comes up.

       

      http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_Profiles

       

      I'd like to build some profiles for my 5DmkII and studio lighting situations, specifically for portrait / skin tone type work. Suggestions welcome.

       

      Thanks,

       

      Lou Dina

        • 1. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
          Jeff Schewe Level 5

          Lou Dina wrote:

           

          I tried downloading documentation and tutorial from the following link, but the site never comes up.

           

          http://labs.adobe.com/wiki/index.php/DNG_Profiles

           

           

          That is the documentation...the link works for me. Note, it's html based...not something you can download.

          • 2. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
            Lou Dina Level 3

            Hmmmmm....Firefox just keeps spinnin' and spinnin' and never opens up that page for me. I'm logged into Adobe Labs and it recognizes me. All my other sites open fine, but not the wiki. Very odd.

             

            Lou

            • 3. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
              Noel Carboni Level 7

              There are a couple of images on that page that take a VERY long time to load.  Maybe FireFox is waiting on them before displaying anything.  Most of the page comes right up in Internet Explorer, but it just took like a full minute to see the two screen grab images.

               

              -Noel

              • 4. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                Lou Dina Level 3

                Thanks.....Holy Moly.....it took about 4 or 5 minutes for the page to open! But, it did finally

                open.

                 

                I wonder what that's all about?

                 

                Best, Lou

                • 5. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                  Level 4

                  Lou Dina wrote:

                   

                  …Holy Moly.....it took about 4 or 5 minutes for the page to open! But, it did finally

                  open.

                   

                  I wonder what that's all about?…

                   

                   

                  Lou,

                   

                  It took in all 8 seconds for the page to download with all images open here.  8 seconds is a long time for my connection.

                   

                   

                  ____________

                  Wo Tai Lao Le

                  我太老了

                  • 6. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                    It's not a connection issue, Tai.  It was a problem with server delivering the images, and it appears to have been cleared up.  Perhaps the server people read this forum.

                     

                    -Noel

                    • 7. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                      Level 4

                      Noel Carboni wrote:

                       

                      …Perhaps the server people read this forum…

                       

                       

                      LOL !  

                       

                      That's boundless wishful thinking. 

                      • 8. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                        Lou Dina Level 3

                        The DNG Profile Editor is a very nice little program. It made a positive difference when used to create profiles with a color checker.

                         

                        I also have a dedicated digital IR camera (Converted Canon 20D) and was able to build a profile for that. Now ACR and LR work great with IR and can get below the 2000K threshold. Well done.

                         

                        Just curious if this is the latest, greatest approach to building custom profiles for digital cameras. I'm not looking for a profile designed solely for a static studio situation, (ie, shoot and run), but one that gets the relationships between colors right in a given lighting condition. I'll edit the image in PP afterwards. I'm liking what I am getting from DNG Profile Editor, but I am receptive to other approaches. Skin tones are my main interest. Anything that can help me improve skin tones is welcome.

                         

                        Thanks, Lou

                        • 9. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                          There are many possible technical approaches. This is the latest one that Adobe has made publicly available for end users (photographers) to build & edit their own profiles, primarily on a visual basis. The DNG Profile Editor is particularly designed to deal with specific problem colors, i.e., if there is a specific color you're trying to nail, the tools should allow you to pin that color to the specific value you care about.

                          • 10. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                            Lou Dina Level 3

                            Thanks, Eric.

                             

                            I like the profiles created with the 24 patch color checker and DNG Profile Editor.  It makes a big difference with my 5DmkII and is especially noticeable with skin tones. I was a bit surprised that it made that much dfference compared to the Adobe standard profiles for my 5DmkII supplied with LR and ACR.

                             

                            Do cameras differ that much from one body to another (same model)?

                             

                            I took three different photos of my color checker (daylight, tungstend and strobe in a studio), then had DNG PE create "both tables" for each profile. I hope I am doing it correctly, but the results suggest I did okay, even if not optimally.The color relationships and accuracy seem much improved.

                             

                            BTW, I also built a profile for my 20D IR converted camera and I can now do a true WB in LR or ACR.

                             

                            Regards, Lou

                            • 11. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                              Yammer Level 4

                              Lou Dina wrote:

                               

                              Do cameras differ that much from one body to another (same model)?

                              I've done three profiles at different times with the SAME camera, and they're all slightly different.

                              • 12. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                b2martin_a Level 2

                                X-Rite also has software that generates profiles using DNG files of the color checker.  Check their ColorChecker Passport.  You can download the X-Rite software free and if you have a colorckecker you can create profiles. It does not have the ability to edit specific colors like the DNG Profile Editor from Adobe.  

                                • 13. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                  Lou Dina Level 3

                                  Thanks for the responses. I guess it would be natural to get a slightly different camera profile if shooting the Color Checker under different lighting conditions. Actually, I tried the DNG Profile Editor using three images taken with Studio Strobes, Overcast Daylight, and Tungsten. I used the simple Color Checker approach and told it to build both tables. I was surprised how closely they tracked one another, especially the strobe and overcast daylight profiles. I would expect profiles to be almost exactly the same under the same lighting conditions, whether I shot it now or 6 months from now. I'd be surprised if it were otherwise.

                                   

                                  I am curious, however, if different camera bodies (same camera model) show much in the way of differences. I'd think they would be more consistent than, say, printers. But, maybe not.

                                   

                                  I'll take a look at the XRite ColorChecker Passport software. Does it work with the full sized 24-patch color checker, or do you need their "Passport" target? Does the XRite software provide any advantages (ie, better profiles) over using Eric's DNG Profile Editor (which I think is pretty awesome)?

                                   

                                  Up to now, I have not created a custom profile for each individual studio session. I just wanted one custom profile based on MY camera and typical studio lighting conditions. I figured it would be a lot better than using a generic profile (ie, Adobe Std, Camera Neutral, etc). Is it worth doing a custom profile for each session, assuming you take a whole bunch of shots under fairly static lighting conditions? Just curious what others have found.

                                   

                                  Thanks, Lou

                                  • 14. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                    Yammer Level 4

                                    I just tried the free Passport software, and I preferred the profile I made with the Adobe DNG PE. I have a custom tone curve in my profile, and it does me for all the photos I take. I think making a profile for every shoot is overdoing it, personally.

                                    • 15. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                      Noel Carboni Level 7
                                      function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                      Yammer P wrote:


                                      I think making a profile for every shoot is overdoing it, personally.

                                       

                                      I have to say I feel about the same.  That's what the million or so of little sliders in the ACR user interface are for. 

                                       

                                      I like to keep in mind that at the top level for most folks the big picture is not about "scientific perfection" but more about "pleasing art".

                                       

                                      -Noel

                                      • 16. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                        MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                        There can be variations among cameras. There are also subtle variations among lighting conditions, as well as chart shooting conditions (exactly how the light is falling on the chart, the angle at which you photograph the chart, etc.). There are also variations among lenses (e.g., spectral transmission of Canon 50 f/1.4 is not the same as Canon 180 f/3.5 macro, but they are close). These are all reasons why one can get slightly different results when producing profiles using the same camera model over time, or even the same physical camera unit. 

                                         

                                        Even with all the variations, tools like the DNG PE should help you get quickly in the ballpark of where you want to be. Once you get in the ballpark, it all comes down to personal preference (e.g., some folks like brighter reds; others like darker reds).

                                        • 17. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                          Lou Dina Level 3

                                          Thanks for all the sensible responses, folks.I just thought I'd see what others are doing as far as custom camera profiles are concerned.

                                           

                                          My initial thinking was to build custom Studio, Daylight and Tungsten camera profiles to make sure the "relationships" between colors were accurate. After that, I figured I'd tweak the sliders in LR or ACR to get what I wanted. I find the custom profiles are a big help in this regard. Sometimes with the canned profiles, I found I was fiddling with sliders for a long time, without getting skin tones (in particular) to look the way I wanted them. With the custom profiles, I get there a lot more quickly with less fiddling around. So, that seals it for me.

                                           

                                          Great info.

                                           

                                          Lou

                                          • 18. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                            Yammer Level 4

                                            MadManChan2000 wrote:

                                             

                                            There can be variations among cameras. There are also subtle variations among lighting conditions, as well as chart shooting conditions (exactly how the light is falling on the chart, the angle at which you photograph the chart, etc.). There are also variations among lenses (e.g., spectral transmission of Canon 50 f/1.4 is not the same as Canon 180 f/3.5 macro, but they are close). These are all reasons why one can get slightly different results when producing profiles using the same camera model over time, or even the same physical camera unit. 

                                             

                                            Even with all the variations, tools like the DNG PE should help you get quickly in the ballpark of where you want to be. Once you get in the ballpark, it all comes down to personal preference (e.g., some folks like brighter reds; others like darker reds).

                                            I always thought that part of the design of the 'ColorChecker' was to produce even results under a variety of lighting conditions, so I was surprised that my profiles always came out differently (not massively so, but noticeably). But, now I think about it, it stands to reason, otherwise, why shoot another target in artificial light?

                                             

                                            At the end of the day, for me, it's about getting a profile I'm happy with, which looks good 95% of the time for my photos, and the Profile Editor has achieved that quite successfully!

                                            • 19. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                              MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                              The CC is indeed designed carefully, but a little experimentation should convince you that angles of view do make a difference. For example, if you shine a strong light on it from above, then move around so that you look at the CC from different angles, it should be clear to you that the appearance of the color patches varies a bit depending on your position -- this is because of flare, etc.

                                              • 20. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                Lou Dina Level 3

                                                Eric,


                                                'The CC is indeed designed carefully, but a little experimentation should  convince you that angles of view do make a difference. For example, if  you shine a strong light on it from above, then move around so that you  look at the CC from different angles, it should be clear to you that the  appearance of the color patches varies a bit depending on your position  -- this is because of flare, etc.'

                                                 

                                                What do you suggest to get the best overall profile in a Studio Strobe situation using DNG PE? Would you fire 2 or 3 strobes at the CC through modifiers (umbrellas, soft boxes, etc) that soften the light, give very even lighting, and minimize potential glare? Should I position the lights more to the side and/or top so the angle of reflection is sure not to bounce back into the camera lens? Makes sense to me, but you have probably tested this repeatedly.

                                                 

                                                Thanks, Lou

                                                • 21. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                  Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                  Lou Dina wrote:

                                                   

                                                  What do you suggest to get the best overall profile in a Studio Strobe situation using DNG PE?

                                                   

                                                  The best lighting would be a standard copy lighting set up sort of lighting with two lights set at about 45º to the target and far enough away so the light fall off from the two sources would even out the lighting.

                                                   

                                                  The light "modifiers" should be whatever sort of modification you would typically use; reflectors, umbrellas, light boxes, whatever. The base line light-the spectral output- is what's important along with the evenness of the lit target.

                                                   

                                                  To be honest, you really shouldn't need a ton of different shots. For example, there's no reason to shoot targets of sun lit daylight and overcast light. You basically only need targets shot that represent the spectral output of the light. You would benefit from shooting targets from different sorts of light output such as strobe/daylight (basically the same), HMI, Tungsten, florescent or mercury vapor.

                                                  • 23. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                    Lou Dina Level 3

                                                    Thanks, Jeff.

                                                     

                                                    One more question, if I may...

                                                     

                                                    I'd like to create a dual illuminant profile (tungsten and daylight) to provide the full range in a custom profile. I have regular incandensent bulbs in my home that I presume will be fine for the tungsten component. But, I do not have a 6500K source. I have daylight (moving target), I have Solux 4700K, I have strobe, but no true D65 light source.

                                                     

                                                    Will strobe or daylight work for the D65 component, and incandescents for the tungsten component? I am assuming they don't need to be quite that precise, and that I merely need to select some "endpoints", but I just don't know for sure.

                                                     

                                                    Lou

                                                    • 24. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                      Strobe or actual daylight will work fine...you really don't need a "D-65" light source per se. Same deal with tungsten...while it would be optimal to have the light source output 3200ºK, 2800ºK would be fine. What's important is the spectral output...daylight (or D65 or D55 or D50) will have a similar spectral output-lots of blue light (hence the higher color temp). Same with tungsten which is a blue light deficient. So, as long as you are close, and the lighting is even, you should be fine.

                                                      • 25. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                        Lou Dina Level 3

                                                        Thanks again, Jeff. That is what I suspected, but it's always nice to know for sure. That's exactly what I'll do!

                                                         

                                                        Lou

                                                        • 26. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                          Yeah, what Jeff said ...

                                                           

                                                          I've made my own profiles using a basic outdoor daylight (about 5500 K) and a Solux bulb I have on my desk (about 3200 K), which works well for normal shooting. The only other case where I've built profiles is if shooting under fluorescent bulbs, especially places with compact fluorescents -- those get very weird.

                                                          • 27. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                            b2martin_a Level 2

                                                            If you generate a custom camera profile for your camera using either Adobe's DNG profile editor or X-Rite Passport software does the remove the need to calibrate ACR for your camera using the Color Matrices adjustments for Primgary Red, Green, and Blue?

                                                            • 28. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                              Lou Dina Level 3

                                                              b2martin,

                                                               

                                                              Others here can give you a more definitive and informed answer, but I believe that is correct. I used to use the calibration sliders to build my own custom profiles (with various automated routines, or manually...back and forth into Photoshop). Once I was happy with my rendering, I'd save the calibration settings as a preset in ACR or LR and use it as my "custom profile", but it was always tied to the profile used to originally create it (ie, Adobe Standard, Camera Neutral, etc).

                                                               

                                                              But, I believe creating a custom profile with DNG Editor or CC Passport contains all this information within the profile itself, so it removes the need to use the calibration sliders. Of course, the calibration sliders can still be used to alter the color balance for fine tuning or creative effect. But, as I understand it, the new profile is a standalone profile that is not tied to a secondary profile. I am getting better results from this method.

                                                               

                                                              If my information is in error, I look forward to being corrected.

                                                               

                                                              Lou

                                                              • 29. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                                Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                You got it right, Lou.

                                                                 

                                                                -Noel

                                                                • 30. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                                  Yammer Level 4

                                                                  You don't need the RGB sliders any more. They are left in for backwards compatibility and 'creative' processing.

                                                                  • 31. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                                    b2martin_a Level 2

                                                                    The reason I ask the question is because of the reference listed above in

                                                                    Macro N's post.  If I read it correctly he is doing both.

                                                                    • 32. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                                      Marco N. Level 1

                                                                      Today I have published a post where you can read because I recommend to use only the calibration slider and reserve the HSL tables only if they are really needed. If you know Italian you can read all the details, if you don't konw it I can try to translate the highlights.

                                                                       

                                                                      Link:http://www.gialandra.it/blog/files/9ce33c5881aab7d4378e2bfb37f2c8ad-3.html

                                                                       

                                                                      Marco

                                                                      • 33. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                                        Marco N. Level 1

                                                                        In the past I did some research in these fields and I want to share the fruit of that work (but English language is a problem).

                                                                         

                                                                        > There can be Variations Among cameras.

                                                                         

                                                                        I have analyzed two sets of cameras, two Canon 40D and two 400D illuminated by Solux Daylight 4700K bulbs.

                                                                         

                                                                        The first test was done with a 400mm. Unfortunately, very little movement of the lens at f/5.6 (a mistake) has darkened the upper rows of ColorChecker and I had to correct them with the brush of ACR Exposure (the worst intervention reaches 0.17). After this intervention the cameras differ by an average error of delta E 2000 0.30 and a maximum of 0.75.

                                                                         

                                                                        Link: http://www.boscarol.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=58&t=321

                                                                         

                                                                        The second test was done with a Canon 400D and a Canon Rebel XTi. In theory, the same model but for different markets.

                                                                         

                                                                        Here the things were particularly interesting because:

                                                                         

                                                                        - the cameras could be build from different processes due to different market areas

                                                                         

                                                                        - the cameras were put on the market in 2006, and were produced with the technology of almost five years ago

                                                                         

                                                                        - the cameras belonged to the entry level market segment, the techniques of production could be consistent with this low target

                                                                         

                                                                        All these factors could lead really to differences in behavior. The results were an average error of 0.65 and a maximum of 1.26.

                                                                         

                                                                        Link: http://www.gialandra.it/blog/files/343e438a6021337b5fdffb2cfbe0f08b-0.html

                                                                         

                                                                        And probably if these tests had been made in laboratory the differences were even smaller.

                                                                         

                                                                        I concluded that the differences in the behavior are all to prove.

                                                                         

                                                                        On the Internet I found nothing of scientific.

                                                                         

                                                                        > There are subtle Also Variations Among Conditions lighting, as well as chart shooting conditions (Exactly how the light is falling on the chart, the angle at Which you photograph the chart, etc.)..

                                                                         

                                                                        These are the most important points. If the chart shooting conditions are a bit easier to control with geometry, get a light with a spectral power distribution right it is very difficult (and I suspect that even Adobe has not a decent D65 simulator). To obtain a light close to illuminant D50 I use 4700K Daylight Solux bulbs without glass diffuser. In front to the lamps I mounted a shape ring protection with a hole less than two centimeter (to avoid protection I have tried the black back version of the Solux bulbs but they do not have the correct spectral power distribution). Bulbs are powered by an adjustable power supply. Using the spectrometer as a feedback I can reach a CRI of 97.

                                                                         

                                                                        It seems to me that even the not winter sunlight when the atmosphere is really clear is close to the D50, but I've never had a chance to measure it. In this condition the problems of non-uniform illumination do not exist, but be careful with the camera and target angles because the light is even more violent, the target should be perfectly at 45 degrees and the sensor should be parallel to the target.

                                                                         

                                                                        Finally to have a more homogeneous illumination and all other problems I use only the mini format of the ColorChecker.

                                                                         

                                                                        > There Are Also Among Variations lenses (eg, spectral transmission of Canon 50 f/1.4 is Not the same as Canon 180 f/3.5 macro, But They Are close).

                                                                         

                                                                        I have studied the effect of five very different lenses in type, brand, cost, etc.. The spectral transmittance of the lens was so different to cause a shift of the white balance of 450K. On films this would lead to very different results, on digital system instead the human visual system is not able to appreciate differencies (worst deltaE 2000 is 1)

                                                                         

                                                                        Link: http://www.photoactivity.com/Pagine/Articoli/052ResaCromaticaObiettivi/Resa_cromatica_degl i_obiettivi_ENG.asp

                                                                         

                                                                        For my studies and my experience at this moment I think the best way to find the faithfull to the scene with a safe semi-universal profile is using the calibration sliders in D50 condition. From the linked experience below this gives faithfull from tungsten light (2600K) to above 10000K, of course this last only in daylight.

                                                                         

                                                                        Link: http://www.photoactivity.com/Pagine/Articoli/023%20Calibratori%20al%20sole/Calibratori%20a l%20sole_en.asp

                                                                         

                                                                        In this context I still use the script of Tindemans but it is time (many years now) that Adobe produces his matrices tweaker (XRite Passport stresses the matrices as far as possible before creating some sort of table)

                                                                         

                                                                        I hope that I'm not boring

                                                                         

                                                                        Ciao

                                                                        Marco

                                                                        • 34. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                                          MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                                          You can also edit the color matrices using the 3rd tab of the DNG Profile Editor.

                                                                          • 35. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                                            Marco N. Level 1

                                                                            Yes, but driving the sliders observing 18 samples and looking for the best balance is not so easy. I prefer this one :-)

                                                                             

                                                                            Ciao

                                                                            Marco

                                                                             

                                                                            a.png

                                                                            • 36. Re: Documentation for DNG Profile Editor??
                                                                              Bill_Janes Level 2

                                                                              Lou Dina wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              Hmmmmm....Firefox just keeps spinnin' and spinnin' and never opens up that page for me. I'm logged into Adobe Labs and it recognizes me. All my other sites open fine, but not the wiki. Very odd.

                                                                               

                                                                              Lou

                                                                              Lou,

                                                                               

                                                                              The site comes up quickly with my Firefox 3.6.10 with Windows 7 64 bit on my laptop. However, I have noted strange behavior with Firefox on this machine. If Firefox has trouble downloading a page, sometimes it seems to hang and I can't even navigate away from that page. I haven't been able track down the cause of this behavior. Have others experienced this problem?