11 Replies Latest reply on Oct 1, 2010 1:56 PM by Steve Grisetti

    Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??

    screenNameHere99 Level 1

      Is there a way to make Premiere Elements 9 take 1080i/60 (30 frames/sec, 60 fields/sec) video and convert it to 1080p/60 output (60 frames/sec, progressive)?

       

      All I want it to do is double the lines from each field to make a whole frame.  I realize that will lose half my vertical resolution - that's fine with me.

       

      I'm dealing with video of very fast-moving objects (model rockets) so I want the highest frame rate possible. 

       

      I'm using a Canon HF100 to capture 1080i/60 video.  If I understand what's going on, each 1080i frame consists of 2 fields of 1920x540.  All I want to do is treat each field as if it were a whole frame (by repeating each line to make 1080 lines/frame).

       

      Is this possible with Premiere Elements 9?  How?  (If not, what tool should be looking at to do this?)

       

      I have the trial version of Elements 9; I'm struggling to figure out how to use it (where to start!?!?), but I'm getting there (other than the .MTS audio problem, but I see from other postings here that's just a trial version limitation).  If I can do this frame rate conversion (de-interlace?), then I'm happy to go buy the full version.

       

      --Dave

        • 1. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

          Yes, you should be able to find the option to set your output up for progressive scan.

           

          Use Share/Personal Computer/MPEG, select the 1440x1080 30 fps setting and click the Advanced button.

           

          In order the progressive scan to be available, you must set the fps for something other than 29.97. I recommend Automatic (Based on source).

          • 2. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
            screenNameHere99 Level 1

            Steve Grisetti wrote:

             

            Use Share/Personal Computer/MPEG, select the 1440x1080 30 fps setting and click the Advanced button.

             

            In order the progressive scan to be available, you must set the fps for something other than 29.97. I recommend Automatic (Based on source).

             

            Thanks, but I guess I'm still confused.  If I choose 1440x1080 30 fps, how does that get me 60 fps output?  30 is not 60.    And if I set the fps to "Automatic", how does it know it's supposed to produce 60?

             

            (Also, I captured the video at the 17 Mbps "FXP" rate, so it's really 1920x1080, not 1440x1080.  But that may not be relevant.)

            • 3. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
              Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

              1440x1080 is the TV format output. It's the same size (16:9) as 1920x1080. The pixels are just shaped different.

               

              The 60 doesn't mean frames. It has to do, again, with how television produces a picture. Each frame is created in two passes, basically. So a 60p or a 60i video is actually 30 frames to second. (Likewise, in PAL, a 50i or 50p video is 25 fps.)

               

              Make sense?

              • 4. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
                VDOSurfer Level 3

                I am still trying to understand the use case. What you want is the output of Premiere Elements to "Not lose information" with respect to what was captured originally.

                 

                What was captured originally - 1920x1080 60i (30 fps) - 60 fields in one second AND SO 30 frames in one second.

                Let me explain this first. It is as you said where each frame with information from two fields. But each field in isolation is not a 1920x540 "frame". This is because the 540 lines in the field are not consecutive. So what you suggested (repeating the frame lines is only going to distort the information, but yes will still have the motion shown rather "stretched" Every line in input "field" will be shown as two lines in output "frame".. I do not think this is what you want.

                 

                What output you said you want. - 1920x1080 60p - 60 frames in one second.

                Do you really want 60 frames seen in one second when the input only has 30 frames in one second? Do you see a benefit in repeating frames? If so, I would suggest you use the "Time Stretch" tool within Premiere Elements (just on top of the timeline) to get this result!

                 

                What output you really want (I think):

                30 frames in one second, progressive or interlaced (depending on where you want to play it...) 1920x1080 in resolution.

                When you do convert progressive to interlaced, the consecutive fields in the Interlaced input are first made a frame, then this frame is transcoded to anything progressive. So information-wise you don't lose anything and the frame rate is maintained as there are 30 frames in one second in the input and in the output

                 

                As Steve suggested, the export presets can be tweaked with the "Advanced" button in the Share tab. So feel free to experiment with a small portion of the video and see what you get..

                 

                As I said in the beginning, I have assumed your use case.. So please correct me if I have assumed wrong.

                • 5. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
                  screenNameHere99 Level 1

                  VDOSurfer,

                   

                  Thanks for the reply.  Maybe I'm confused (ok, probably).

                   

                  VDOSurfer wrote:

                   

                  I am still trying to understand the use case. What you want is the output of Premiere Elements to "Not lose information" with respect to what was captured originally.

                   

                  Yes, correct.  But more than that - I think that the camera is capturing 60 fields/second at 60 distinct time-points in each second (1/2000 of second each - that's the shutter speed.  (If I'm wrong about this then the following is all nonsense.  But I think it's correct.)

                  What was captured originally - 1920x1080 60i (30 fps) - 60 fields in one second AND SO 30 frames in one second.

                  Let me explain this first. It is as you said where each frame with information from two fields. But each field in isolation is not a 1920x540 "frame". This is because the 540 lines in the field are not consecutive. So what you suggested (repeating the frame lines is only going to distort the information, but yes will still have the motion shown rather "stretched" Every line in input "field" will be shown as two lines in output "frame".. I do not think this is what you want.

                   

                  Yes, I know that the odd field only has the odd-numbered 540 lines out of the 1080 (lines 1, 3, 5, etc.), and the even field has only the even-numbered lines (2, 4, 6, 8...). 

                   

                  So if I take one field, I have a single picture of 1920 pixels wide and 540 pixels high.  If I looked at that as a single picture, it would be vertically "squashed" by 2:1 (it would be half as tall as it ought to be).

                  What output you said you want. - 1920x1080 60p - 60 frames in one second.

                  Do you really want 60 frames seen in one second when the input only has 30 frames in one second? Do you see a benefit in repeating frames? If so, I would suggest you use the "Time Stretch" tool within Premiere Elements (just on top of the timeline) to get this result!

                   

                  My understanding of what was captured (I do have some technical background in video, but not in editing it) looks like this:

                   

                  Time (1/60 seconds):   0/60  1/60  2/60  3/60  4/60  5/60  6/60  7/60  8/60 ...

                  Fields:                          E      O     E      O      E      O     E      O      E ...

                  Frames:                            1               2               3             4  ...

                   

                  In other words frame 1 is composed of the Even and Odd fields captured at time=0/60 and time=1/60.  Frame 2 is composed of the next pair of Even and Odd fields, etc.  (Odd might be captured first; I don't remember, but it's the same idea either way.)

                   

                  So what I want for output is this:

                   

                  Time (1/60 seconds):   0/60  1/60  2/60  3/60  4/60  5/60  6/60  7/60  8/60 ...

                  Frames:                       1       2      3       4       5      6      7       8     9 ...

                   

                  In other words:

                   

                       frame 1 (output) comes from the Even field of frame 1 (input)

                       frame 2 (output) comes from the Odd field of frame 1 (input)

                       frame 3 (output) comes from the Even field of frame 2 (input)

                       frame 4 (output) comes from the Odd field of frame 2 (input)

                       frame 5 (output) comes from the Even field of frame 3 (input)

                       frame 6 (output) comes from the Odd field of frame 3 (input)

                       etc.

                   

                  This is meant to be displayed on a computer at 60 fps.

                   

                  I want to stretch each single field vertically, doubling it in size back to the normal proportions (16:9).  The way I want to do that is just by using each line twice, to make 1920x1080.

                   

                  This gives me 1 output frame every 60th of a second, captured at points in time 1/60th second apart.  Each of these output frames is 1920x1080, but was created from an input that was only 1920x540, so it will be a bit fuzzy in the vertical dimension (that's OK).  It's the 60 Hz time resolution that I mostly care about.

                  What output you really want (I think):

                  30 frames in one second, progressive or interlaced (depending on where you want to play it...) 1920x1080 in resolution.

                  When you do convert progressive to interlaced, the consecutive fields in the Interlaced input are first made a frame, then this frame is transcoded to anything progressive. So information-wise you don't lose anything and the frame rate is maintained as there are 30 frames in one second in the input and in the output

                   

                  I don't think that's what I want.  30 frames in one second (output) only gives me 1/2 the time resolution that was in the originally captured video (60 Hz).

                   

                  I'm willing to "lose" information in each output frame in order to gain more time resolution.  (It's not really "lost", it's just moved to the next output frame.)

                   

                  Is this clearer?  To me it seems that what I want to do is simple, but it's hard to explain, and I still have no clue if Elements can do it, or how.

                  • 6. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
                    Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                    I've already told you how to do it, screenname, in my first post.

                     

                    NTSC video is 30 frames per second. PAL is 25. You can't get any more frames per second than that on video you're going to play on a TV.

                     

                    In other words, you are NOT going to lose one iota of video data going from 60i to 30p. Two interlaced frames equals one frame of video. You can't squeeze more frames in between.

                     

                    So 1440x1080 30p is full resolution, anamorphic pixel NTSC hi-def video. Exactly the same video data as your 1920x1080 square pixel 60i.

                     

                    Don't get confused by the numbers. You can't compare interlaced frames to progressive, and you can't compare square pixels to anamorphic pixels. It's EXACTLY the same number of television pixels, exactly the same number of frames.

                    • 7. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
                      screenNameHere99 Level 1

                      Steve Grisetti wrote:

                       

                      I've already told you how to do it, screenname, in my first post.

                      Touche'.  I've got to get a better screen name.  :-)

                       

                      NTSC video is 30 frames per second. PAL is 25. You can't get any more frames per second than that on video you're going to play on a TV.

                      I know.  But I'm NOT playing this on a TV, I'm playing it on a computer - which can do 60 frames/sec

                       

                      What I didn't mention in my last post is that I want to be able to play it back in slow-motion (using VLC to play it), so I can examine the footage frame-by-frame.  For that purpose, capturing 60 fields/sec is really useful - it gives me something to look at twice as often (compared to 30 fps).

                       

                      So, is there a way do that?

                       

                      Cheers,

                       

                      --Dave

                      • 8. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
                        Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                        Dave, I think the thing that's not getting across is that you do not have 60 frames per second now -- and you won't be able to get it on your output.

                         

                        60i is 30 fps. It's not 60 fps. Does that make sense?

                         

                        You can still slow it down -- to a point. But you won't have a better advantage for doing it with 60i than you will with 30p.

                         

                        Why? Because they're both 30 frames to second!

                         

                        This article goes into much more detail, but it says essentially the same thing.

                        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interlace

                         

                        Again, don't confuse the "i" with frames! NTSC video operates at 60 hz frames. These are "half frames." It takes two of these frames, interlaced, to make one video frame.

                         

                        I don't know any other way to say it.

                        • 9. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
                          screenNameHere99 Level 1

                          Steve,

                           

                          Somehow I think we're talking past each other.

                           

                          1080i is 60 half-frames per second.  Those "half-frames" are called "fields".  Each field has half the lines - that is, every other line (and all the rows) of a full frame.  When you put 2 consecutive fields together, you get a whole frame.

                           

                          All I'm trying to do is treat each of those 60 half-frames per second as a whole picture.

                           

                          Put another way, what I'm trying to get out of the 1080i input want is 60 STILL pictures from each second of video.  Those pictures are in the source video.  If I had a simple way to pull each field into Photoshop (that would be a 1920x540 still image), then double the height of each image by stretching, that would accomplish what I'm trying to do.

                           

                          Of course to do that one-by-one in Photoshop would be incredibly tedious, but it's possible.

                           

                          So I'm asking if Elements can do that automatically.  And if so, how?

                          • 10. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
                            screenNameHere99 Level 1

                            Replying to my own post, to elaborate:

                             

                            Maybe the confusion here is that I think (and I'm pretty sure I'm correct) that each of the 2 fields of a frame are captured at DIFFERENT times.  Not at the same time.

                             

                            So, at:

                             

                            Time 0s:  Field 1, frame 1 is captured (odd)

                            Time 1/60s: Field 2, frame 1 is captured (even)

                            Time 2/60s: Field 1, frame 2 is captured (odd)

                            Time 3/60s: Field 2, frame 2 is captured (even)

                            Time 4/60s: Field 1, frame 3 is captured (odd)

                            Time 5/60s: Field 2, frame 3 is captured (even)

                            Time 6/60s: Field 1, frame 4 is captured (odd)

                            Time 7/60s: Field 2, frame 4 is captured (even)

                            etc.

                             

                            Do you agree that's correct?  (If I'm wrong about this, then please tell me.)

                             

                            If that's right, then at each of the 8 time points I just listed (0/60s to 7/60s) a half-resolution (1920x540) still picture is captured.  That's a picture rate of 60 Hz - 60 pictures/second.  (I'm avoiding the terms "frame" and "field" here for clarity.)

                             

                            So what I want to do is just treat each of those 8 pictures, captured over a period of 8/60ths of a second, as output frames.  Streatched 2:1 vertically to make the aspect ratio come out normally.

                             

                            Does this make any sense?

                            • 11. Re: Convert 1080i/60 to 1080p/60??
                              Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                              Sorry, no, Screenname. I don't think either of us is going to convince the other -- so maybe someone else can offer some insight.

                               

                              NTSC video is 30 frames per second. That's just the nature of it.