21 Replies Latest reply on Oct 16, 2010 7:57 AM by Stan Jones

    CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

    csc-uk Level 1

      I have been using Premiere Pro CS4 to produce a HDTV Bluray documentary, I am doing my final render, I was getting ready to send to duplicator facility for glass master production & first copy run, then I found the duplicator wants a cmf file (cutting master format), this is the only input file format allowable for bluray by any such facility, & CS4 does not do this so is not able to do Bluray projects end-to-end (I thought from their sales literature that it would).

       

      So now I am going to have to buy some other software.

       

      So does anyone know whether Adobe added cmf support in CS5?

        • 1. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          Roxio DVDit ProHD, Sonic Scenarist, SONY Blu Print & NetBlender DoStudio can all produce this type of image.

           

          In addition, it seems most replication houses will also require a roughly $500/layer and $0.04/disk AACS fee.  (AACS is the non-optional copy protection required for all stamped BD didks.)

          • 2. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
            csc-uk Level 1

            I have heard of these & have started researching them.

             

            So far as I know so far, Sonic & BluPrint are very expensive & I am a little guy on a micro-budget.

             

            Do you happen to know specifically whether the Roxio or Netblender products can handle the following setting:

            H.264, profile main, level 4.1, macroblocs? This together with tsmuxer for efficient muxing is how I got the project to fit onto bluray, less efficient video compression or

            less efficient muxing can blow the bluray capacity for this project.

             

            Thanks.

             

             

            Message du 11/10/10 03:50

            De : "Jim Simon"

            A : "JONES Peter"

            Copie à :

            Objet : CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

             

            Roxio DVDit ProHD, Sonic Scenarist, SONY Blu Print & NetBlender DoStudio can all produce this type of image.

            >

            • 3. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
              Powered by Design Level 4

              Just curious, who do you plan to use for your duplication.

               

              I didnt know that about Blu-ray.

               

              I have never used one but was looking at http://diskmakers.com before for standard DVD's but they do Blu-ray too.

               

               

              Thanks:  GLenn

              • 4. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                csc-uk Level 1

                I plan to use BR Productions in Germany website http://br-productions.de/br.0.html?L=1

                 

                They have offered to do the mastering also, more expensive than the cheapest software, but still you know that for a fixed price they will accept & guarantee their own

                cmf file.

                 

                 

                Message du 11/10/10 10:38

                De : "Powered by Design"

                A : "JONES Peter"

                Copie à :

                Objet : CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

                 

                Just curious, who do you plan to use for your duplication.

                 

                I didnt know that about Blu-ray.

                 

                I have never used one but was looking at http://diskmakers.com before for standard DVD's but they do Blu-ray too.

                 

                 

                Thanks:  GLenn

                >

                • 5. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                  Do you happen to know specifically whether the Roxio or Netblender products can handle the following setting:

                   

                  I don't.  Sorry.

                   

                  I am a little guy on a micro-budget.

                   

                  That is why duplication is also an option.  No AACS fee.  And you can usually just send them a burned copy to use as a master.

                  • 6. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                    csc-uk Level 1

                    My understanding is that "replication" without AACS etc is based not on full bluray (bluray disc with bluray file format) but on avchd, that is bluray disc with avchd file

                    system. Bluray with avchd format is very less functional & you cannot sell such as bluray to general public, you would have to tell them it is not bluray then they will not

                    buy from you. They need the assurance before they buy that they are getting full bluray. Purpose of AACS is copy protection for sure, I did some reading, not all

                    commercial bluray readers will accept non-AACS content. Basically, best to stick with industry standards when selling to public. AACS need not be that expensive,

                    instead of onetime fee for license that runs forever you can pay a rental per annum for up to ten years. etc etc.

                     

                     

                     

                     

                    Message du 11/10/10 17:46

                    De : "Jim Simon"

                    A : "JONES Peter"

                    Copie à :

                    Objet : CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

                     

                    Do you happen to know specifically whether the Roxio or Netblender products can handle the following setting:

                     

                    I don't.  Sorry.

                     

                    I am a little guy on a micro-budget.

                     

                    That is why duplication is also an option.  No AACS fee.  And you can usually just send them a burned copy to use as a master.

                    >

                    • 7. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                      My understanding is that "replication" without AACS

                       

                      My understanding is that such is not possible.  You can duplicate, but not replicate, without AACS.

                      • 8. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                        csc-uk Level 1

                        We will descend into nomenclature.

                         

                        I found a white paper by a duplication facility that gave a description of the bluray duplication process. Duplication was the word used. Bluray standard is in fact split

                        into two halves, the physical media & the file system. To be fully bluray compliant there are therefore 2 standards to meet, the physical media & the filesystem. They then

                        said that the filesystem can only be produced from a cmf image on a disk, you use this image to create the glass master, but only after some additional steps, those

                        steps they said mandatorily include AACS encrypting, so AACS encryption is applied to the cmf contents, and the output of this encryption is what is then used for the

                        creation of the glass master. This white paper further stated that bluray players will not play from any supposed bluray filesystem that is not correctly protected by

                        AACS. From all this it appears aacs & bluray filesystem are inseparable. The other form of copying is I believe called "replication", but this does not use the bluray

                        filesystem, bluray discs can be used as general data disks for example, and you can use an alternate filesystem for AVCHD storage and playback. Replication is for

                        these latter types. The AVCHD replicated disk can then allow you to bypass AACS etc, but you will not be allowed to say that the content is bluray content, you will not

                        be allowed to use all the labels that give consumer confidence at point of sale, you will not have content protection so any one can steal your content such as pirates,

                        etc etc. Also bluray menus require the bluray filesystem, the bluray menu for the consumer is subsumed within the bluray filesystem specification. The bluray java

                        engine to allow internet access from the bluray disc for further content (web enabled content) is also only accessible from a genuine bluray filesystem. Blah blah blah.

                         

                        I only recount what the white paper said.

                         

                        I am not sure what it is that the likes of Encore are doing when they burn bluray disks directly, but they may only be using avchd in a filesystem different to the bluray

                        filesystem, I am not sure this bans menus altogether just that it does not permit fully functional bluray style menus, so some kind of menuing may be permissable but not

                        actual true bluray menuing.

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                         

                        Message du 12/10/10 07:36

                        De : "Jim Simon"

                        A : "JONES Peter"

                        Copie à :

                        Objet : CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

                         

                        My understanding is that "replication" without AACS

                         

                        My understanding is that such is not possible.  You can duplicate, but not replicate, without AACS.

                        >

                        • 9. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                          I only recount what the white paper said.

                           

                          The paper may have gotten the nomenclature backwards.  Industry standard terms are "duplication" for burned copies, and "replication" for stamped copies.

                           

                          Based on that, the paper seems to agree with the information I have, in that stamped copies cannot be created without AACS.  Burned copies can.  Stamped copies may need the CMF file, burned copies may not.

                           

                          So which are you trying to create?

                          • 10. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                            csc-uk Level 1

                            So how does a bluray player know the difference between bluray filesystem non-AACS and bluray filesystem with AACS? Because the white paper seemed to say

                            bluray players will not play from non-AACS bluray filesystems. There would be logic to such refusal, if anyone breaks the AACS encoding pirated copies would appear

                            as likely non-AACS bluray filesystems.

                             

                             

                            Message du 13/10/10 17:45

                            De : "Jim Simon"

                            A : "JONES Peter"

                            Copie à :

                            Objet : CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

                             

                            I only recount what the white paper said.

                             

                            The paper may have gotten the nomenclature backwards.  Industry standard terms are "duplication" for burned copies, and "replication" for stamped copies.

                             

                            Based on that, the paper seems to agree with the information I have, in that stamped copies cannot be created without AACS.  Burned copies can.

                            >

                            • 11. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                              how does a bluray player know the difference

                               

                              I would imagine because they're designed that way, in the same way they can tell the difference between a BD, a DVD and a CD.

                              • 12. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                                csc-uk Level 1

                                Well, Sony was one of the key designers of bluray specifications & Sony is crazy for content protection because it is also a massive content owner, player

                                manufacturers can support more than just bluray itself, so if they play HDTV content on bluray disk output from Encore it does not mean Encore is producing bluray

                                filesystem stuff.

                                 

                                Anyways by now the question is answered, CS5 does not produce CMF either so CS5 output is also not directly suitable for AACS type full-specification bluray

                                encoding & either you buy some additional software just for this step or you pay an external bureau to do it, in my case the replicator is going to do it, for little guys both

                                options need to be known from project outset because they are expensive. And it is not known that the cheaper cmf software packages will work with the Premiere Pro

                                output because they will often want to re-encode, and options useable in Premiere Pro may not be re-useable in the cmf software. This is a big reason why I

                                outsourced the cmf production. The outsourcer will know the project properly compressed & muxed will fit on single layer bluray when that is done using certain

                                options, so they better make sure their cmf & aaacs encrypted versions do as well, that will be their problem and hopefully they use top end software for this.

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                Message du 14/10/10 20:36

                                De : "Jim Simon"

                                A : "JONES Peter"

                                Copie à :

                                Objet : CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

                                 

                                how does a bluray player know the difference

                                 

                                I would imagine because they're designed that way.

                                >

                                • 13. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                                  Powered by Design Level 4

                                  I have yet to play with HD burning but I have enjoyed your question.

                                   

                                  I do wonder if this is a feature that will come to Premiere or there is not enough demand for it.

                                   

                                  I did do allot of reading on the website where I was interested in replication.

                                   

                                  I was interested in DVD9

                                   

                                  http://www.discmakers.com/authoring/faq/source-dvd9.asp

                                   

                                  On the site I learned that the best way was to submit both layers separate.

                                   

                                  As a last resort they can take a DVD9+R but its not as good as other ways that are listed.

                                   

                                  My ?

                                   

                                  How would we go about this with Premiere and Encore ?

                                   

                                   

                                  GLenn

                                  • 14. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                                    Larry Applegate Level 2

                                    We have been offering BluStreak Premaster for creating BDCMF images for AACS replication since a year ago May, and have hundreds of successful replications using Encore CS4 and now CS5.

                                     

                                    http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/

                                     

                                    This is a Macintosh-only application, but it will accepts build folders from Windows or Mac Encore, or in fact from any Blu-ray authoring application.

                                     

                                    Regards,

                                     

                                    Larry Applegate

                                    Rivergate Software, Inc.

                                    1 person found this helpful
                                    • 15. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                                      Jim_Simon Level 8
                                      if they play HDTV content on bluray disk output from Encore it does not mean Encore is producing bluray filesystem stuff.

                                       

                                      There's more than one specification for BD, specifically the specs for BD-ROM (stamped/replicated disks) and BD-R/E (burned/duplicated disks) are not exactly the same.  The latter allows things the former doesn't, and vice versa.  It seems very likely that Encore is producing within the appropriate specifications for burned disks.

                                       

                                       


                                      for little guys both options need to be known from project outset because they are expensive.

                                       

                                      Agreed.

                                       

                                      it is not known that the cheaper cmf software packages will work with the Premiere Pro output

                                       

                                      That can probably be found out, though.  And it does seem likely that Premiere can export something the other program can use.  Remember, you don't have to compress to Blu-ray specs from Premiere.  You can always output a DI for the other software to encode.

                                      • 16. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                                        Larry Applegate Level 2

                                        A little clarification:

                                         

                                        Encore creates fully-compliant BDMV folders using HDMV, or Movie Mode. This is recorded as an Interactive Graphics (IG) stream with 8-bit graphics, that can appear to act as if it were video, with more restrictions. While Encore is less capable, this stream is written to exactly the same specs as IG streams from major studio high-end software. The only difference between BD recordables and BD-ROM in this mode is in the application of AACS during the premastering process, which is what BluStreak Premaster does.

                                         

                                        The other mode is BD-J, or Java. In this mode the menu graphics are 24-bit. (Both HDMV and BD-J also have an 8-bit alpha channel). None of the consumer or prosumer apps support BD-J, the least expensive professional application is NetBlender DoStudio, $3k for a minimum system. BD-J is required if the disc is to interact with the internet, and this is only possible for replicated discs, i.e. BD-ROM. BluStreak Premaster can also do the premastering for BD-J discs.

                                         

                                        The other ******* child is AVCHD, which is a small subset of HDMV mode, written to the 1.0 spec. (HDMV and BD-J are version 2.0).

                                         

                                        A consumer app that offers BDCMF is Sonic DVDIt! Pro HD. It does not support pop-up menus, thus I would not even classify it as prosumer.

                                         

                                        Authoring apps in general, both for DVD and BD, offer premastering only for their own projects, and cannot deal with build folders; it is what they create, not what they ingest.

                                         

                                        There are two stand-alone premastering solutions for DVD, Gear Pro Mastering Edition for PC, and DVDAfterEdit Mastering Edition for Macintosh. BluStreak Premaster (for Macintosh) is the only Blu-ray stand-alone solution.

                                         

                                        -Larry

                                        1 person found this helpful
                                        • 17. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                                          csc-uk Level 1

                                          We are in a transitional period, where I think most consumers are still on SDTV & DVD, but as their equipment wears out & as HDTV & Bluray prices come down

                                          consumers will switch. In just a few years time most consumers will be equipped for the latter & all new production will likely have to be in HDTV & bluray.

                                           

                                          Anyway my project was always conceived as hdtv then later as bluray cos of the material.

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                           

                                          Message du 15/10/10 12:01

                                          De : "Powered by Design"

                                          A : "JONES Peter"

                                          Copie à :

                                          Objet : CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

                                           

                                          I have yet to play with HD burning but I have enjoyed your question.

                                           

                                          I do wonder if this is a feature that will come to Premiere or there is not enough demand for it.

                                           

                                          I did do allot of reading on the website where I was interested in replication.

                                           

                                          I was interested in DVD9

                                           

                                          http://www.discmakers.com/authoring/faq/source-dvd9.asp

                                           

                                          On the site I learned that the best way was to submit both layers separate.

                                           

                                          As a last resort they can take a DVD9+R but its not as good as other ways that are listed.

                                           

                                          My ?

                                           

                                          How would we go about this with Premiere and Encore ?

                                           

                                           

                                          GLenn

                                          >

                                          • 18. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                                            csc-uk Level 1

                                            I am finding that the bluray replicators have realised they need to add the pre-replication services also, the replicator I am talking to apparently also handles the AACS

                                            licensing as in the initial one-off fee per title.

                                             

                                             

                                            Message du 15/10/10 22:20

                                            De : "Larry Applegate"

                                            A : "JONES Peter"

                                            Copie à :

                                            Objet : CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

                                             

                                            We have been offering BluStreak Premaster for creating BDCMF images for AACS replication since a year ago May, and have hundreds of successful replications

                                            using Encore CS4 and now CS5.

                                             

                                            http://blustreak.dvdafteredit.com/

                                             

                                            This is a Macintosh-only application, but it will accepts build folders from Windows or Mac Encore, or in fact from any Blu-ray authoring application.

                                             

                                            Regards,

                                             

                                            Larry Applegate

                                            Rivergate Software, Inc.

                                            >

                                            • 19. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                                              csc-uk Level 1

                                              OK, & we want Premiere Pro to support the commercial mainstream BD-ROM stuff like we see being sold in shops to consumers for movie titles cos we want to do the

                                              same as Hollywood.

                                               

                                               

                                               

                                              Message du 16/10/10 07:37

                                              De : "Jim Simon"

                                              A : "JONES Peter"

                                              Copie à :

                                              Objet : CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

                                               

                                              if they play HDTV content on bluray disk output from Encore it does not mean Encore is producing bluray filesystem stuff.

                                               

                                               

                                              There's more than one specification for BD, specifically the specs for BD-ROM (stamped/replicated disks) and BD-R/E (burned/duplicated disks) are not exactly the

                                              same.  The latter allows things the former doesn't, and vice versa.

                                              >

                                              • 20. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                                                csc-uk Level 1

                                                OK, illuminating. I am sending 1 purchase to 1 replicator to consolidate everything, the authoring to produce the menu & cmf & AACS image, the AACS licensing, & finally

                                                the glass master creation & the 1st 1,000 copies. I hope to go to Calais to sell them, & people need to know its fully proper commercial standard bluray, if all 1,000 sell I

                                                am off to the Calais department stores to see if they will stock it.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Message du 16/10/10 08:31

                                                De : "Larry Applegate"

                                                A : "JONES Peter"

                                                Copie à :

                                                Objet : CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?

                                                 

                                                A little clarification:

                                                 

                                                Encore creates fully-compliant BDMV folders using HDMV, or Movie Mode. This is recorded as an Interactive Graphics (IG) stream with 8-bit graphics, that can appear

                                                to act as if it were video, with more restrictions. While Encore is less capable, this stream is written to exactly the same specs as IG streams from major studio high-end

                                                software. The only difference between BD recordables and BD-ROM in this mode is in the application of AACS during the premastering process, which is what

                                                BluStreak Premaster does.

                                                 

                                                The other mode is BD-J, or Java. In this mode the menu graphics are 24-bit. (Both HDMV and BD-J also have an 8-bit alpha channel). None of the consumer or

                                                prosumer apps support BD-J, the least expensive professional application is NetBlender DoStudio, $3k for a minimum system. BD-J is required if the disc is to interact

                                                with the internet, and this is only possible for replicated discs, i.e. BD-ROM. BluStreak Premaster can also do the premastering for BD-J discs.

                                                 

                                                The other ******* child is AVCHD, which is a small subset of HDMV mode, written to the 1.0 spec. (HDMV and BD-J are version 2.0).

                                                 

                                                A consumer app that offers BDCMF is Sonic DVDIt! Pro HD. It does not support pop-up menus, thus I would not even classify it as prosumer.

                                                 

                                                Authoring apps in general, both for DVD and BD, offer premastering only for their own projects, and cannot deal with build folders; it is what they create, not what

                                                they ingest.

                                                 

                                                There are two stand-alone premastering solutions for DVD, Gear Pro Mastering Edition for PC, and DVDAfterEdit Mastering Edition for Macintosh. BluStreak Premaster

                                                (for Macintosh) is the only Blu-ray stand-alone solution.

                                                 

                                                -Larry

                                                >

                                                • 21. Re: CMF Cutting Master Format - is this in CS5?
                                                  Stan Jones Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  Larry, thanks for jumping into these several threads and sharing this information.  Most helpful.