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1. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
p taz Oct 13, 2010 4:58 PM (in response to Ron Lanham)First thought is that ProPhoto is not a design or print profile, any profile you convert to is going to be smaller and thus you will have out-of-gamut colours and I think any common previewer will use a monitor profile or generic profile for thumbnails. You would need a monitor capable of displaying full ProPhoto gamut.
I should add that a large part of ProPhoto gamut is 'imaginary'! The colours don't even really exist!
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2. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 13, 2010 10:48 PM (in response to p taz)"You would need a monitor capable of displaying full ProPhoto gamut."
Thanks p taz for posting.
I work professionally and use three monitors that are capable of displaying the ProPhoto gamut (re. my personal profile).
"First thought is that ProPhoto is not a design or print profile..."
Bruce Fraser as well as many other pros have been recommending the use of this profile for quite some time... I just hadn't tried it.
"I should add that a large part of ProPhoto gamut is 'imaginary'! The colours don't even really exist!"
Why would so many professionals recommend it then?
Regards,
Ron
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3. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 12:17 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
…Bruce Fraser as well as many other pros have been recommending the use of this profile for quite some time…
…Why would so many professionals recommend it then?
"ProPhoto RGB is the only color space real men use."
Most photographers I know use it, it is indeed what experts use and recommend,and I've been using it myself for years.
I suspect the previous poster may be involved more with design and/or prepress work than photography. I don't know.
However, ProPhoto RGB does require a precise knowledge of color management science and skills to know how to deal with out-of-gamut colors.
A properly tagged (with its profile embedded) ProPhoto RGB image file will look fine in any color-managed application like Photoshop and Bridge.
Untagged (no color profile embedded) ProPhoto RGB will indeed look like cr@p. Even tagged ProPhoto RGB images will look awful in non-color-managed applications (like many web browsers, only Firefox is correctly color-managed).
To begin learning about color management, you can start here:
http://www.gballard.net/psd/cmstheory.html
All Apple applications, from the Finder through Preview and Safari to Aperture, throw the monitor profile at untagged images, making them look bad.
Firefox and Bridge, use sRGB for any untagged image files. Photoshop uses your working color space for untagged files.
A corrupted monitor profile or a monitor that is not calibrated often and regularly will also wreck the colors.
Rule number one: Calibrate and profile your monitor accurately, regularly and often.
Rule number two: work only with tagged images (with embedded profile)—always.
In a nutshell, if you're having problems with ProPhoto RGB you are not remotely equipped to use that color space just yet.
____________
Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了
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4. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 12:23 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
…I'd like to use ProPhoto for a book I'm designing…
Yikes!
I had missed that. My bad.
In this case, p taz is 100% correct. Listen to his advice.
My comments above apply to photographic prints.
My most abject apologies to p taz.
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Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了
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5. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 1:17 AM (in response to Tai Lao)Tai Lao,
So since the final images will be of a much narrower gamut (i.e. CMYK) when printed I'm assuming that you feel (know?) that a sheetfed press will lose a lot of the ProPhoto color subtlety anyway.
My original question though was simply about the thumbnails... which I still don't understand why it is happening.
Any ideas?
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6. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 1:19 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
…My original question though was simply about the thumbnails... which I still don't understand why it is happening.
Any ideas?
Yes, read my posts again. The answer is clearly there. The link provides further insight:
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7. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 1:22 AM (in response to Tai Lao)Where?
I've watched Ballard's site for years.
Never seen anything about this kind of an anomaly.
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8. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 1:25 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Repeating:
A properly tagged (with its profile embedded) ProPhoto RGB image file will look fine in any color-managed application like Photoshop and Bridge.
Untagged (no color profile embedded) ProPhoto RGB will indeed look like cr@p. Even tagged ProPhoto RGB images will look awful in non-color-managed applications (like many web browsers, only Firefox is correctly color-managed).
All Apple applications, from the Finder through Preview, iPhoto and Safari to Aperture, throw the monitor profile at untagged images, making them look bad.
Firefox and Bridge, use sRGB for any untagged image files. Photoshop uses your working color space for untagged files.
A corrupted monitor profile or a monitor that is not calibrated often and regularly will also wreck the colors.
Always honor the profile, and ALWAYS embed the profile in each and every file.
Then view the tagged files or tagged thumbnails in a fully color-managed application like Photoshop, Bridge, InDesign, etc.
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9. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 1:28 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Tag your files! Embed the profile in each and every file!
´
If your tagged images still look bad in Photoshop, your monitor profile is hosed.
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10. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 1:30 AM (in response to Tai Lao)Tai Lao,
Do you really think I would not know to embed a profile or calibrate my monitor?
I mentioned earlier that I am a professional, but simply do not see why the thumbnails do not appear correctly.
My question still stands for anyone that would like to suggest, or knows why, this is so.
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11. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 1:31 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
Where?
I've watched Ballard's site for years.
Never seen anything about this kind of an anomaly.
Geebus Chrysler! Read all the pages in that site. Especially ones that show you untagged files.
It's all there!
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12. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 1:32 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
Tai Lao,
Do you really think I would not know to embed a profile or calibrate my monitor?
Yes, I do, since I only have your posts to judge.
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13. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 1:33 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Post one or more of your offending files!
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14. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 1:43 AM (in response to Tai Lao)Tai Lao,
Please don't post again to this thread.
Thanks.
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15. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 2:03 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
…Please don't post again to this thread…
Oh! Now you think you own this thread?
You don't. Just because you start a thread does not mean you own it. There will be many others who will be reading this thread in the future, and they are entitled to find out where a problem lies.
The mature thing to do would be for you to provide more information and post an example of your offending files.
I have literally tens of thousands of ProPhoto RGB files and they look fine in Photoshop 11.0.2 ("CS4"); they are all tagged. The thumbnail also look fine in Bridge.
I'll post examples of a properly tagged file and an untagged one in a few minutes.
____________
Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了
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16. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 2:15 AM (in response to Tai Lao)I'm very impressed... <g>
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17. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 2:21 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)I took the familiar PDI Target image, converted it to ProPhoto RGB and saved a relatively small JPEG. As viewed in the Bridge Preview panel, the left image is a tagged ProPhoto RGB copy, the one on the right is an untagged one.
The screen shot below shows what their thumbnails look like in the Bridge Content panel:
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Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了
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18. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 2:32 AM (in response to Ron Lanham) -
19. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 2:35 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
I'm very impressed... <g>
So, it's now your turn to impress me: post one of your offending image files. The file itself, not a screen shot.
Use a free service like http://s5.yousendit.com/ to send the image file to yourself, then post the yousendit.com link here when you receive it.
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Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了
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20. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 2:46 AM (in response to Tai Lao)Definitely not impressed. <g>
Enjoy your conversation with yourself.
Your kind of 'help' I don't need.
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21. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 2:48 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)…and yet, YOU are the one with the problem.
Suit yourself.
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Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了
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22. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 2:49 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Future readers: please note that the answers have all been given in this thread.
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Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了
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23. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 15, 2010 5:47 AM (in response to Tai Lao)Yeah right. LOL
BTW... I looked at your profile and did a search.
All of those thousands of photos of yours must be in your vault and you sure don't seem to want to share them.
Not a website, email, nada.
Wow... I'm really impressed. <g>
One can say they've created a lot... but that doesn't make it so.
[Note from moderator: This post was reported as abuse. Since the discussion appears to have ended amiably, I'm leaving it. But please do not use the forum for personal attacks.]
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24. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 3:03 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Finally:
If what you're talking about is how your images look to you in Apple's Finder, then we're wasting our time here. I already said that color management is a mess in all Apple applications, including the Finder. The finder can't create a proper thumbnail out of a ProPhoto RGB image file. QuickImage can.
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25. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 3:07 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)LOL !
You have no way to do a web search.
My signature simply means I am too old in Mandarin. My user ID is part of that sentence: "Too Old".
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Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了
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26. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 3:13 AM (in response to Tai Lao)So where can everyone see your 'beautiful' photographs?
And why would a photographer make it so difficult to see their photos or get in contact with him?
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27. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 3:16 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
And why would a photographer make it so difficult to see their photos or get in contact with him?
Because of nasty people like you in cyberspace who revel in personal attacks.
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28. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 3:17 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)I'm here to attempt to help others, not for self promotion.
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29. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 3:19 AM (in response to Tai Lao)Repeat:
If what you're talking about is how your images look to you in Apple's Finder, then we're wasting our time here. I already said that color management is a mess in all Apple applications, including the Finder. The finder can't create a proper thumbnail out of a ProPhoto RGB image file. QuickImage can.
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30. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 3:25 AM (in response to Tai Lao)Good for you.. <g> you finally actually read my original post.
You would have saved yourself a lot of time if you had simply taken the time to do that to begin with.
And for a photographer not to want to share their 'thousands' of photos... yeah right. <g>
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31. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 3:29 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
…for a photographer not to want to share their 'thousands' of photos…
Not with the likes of you, that's for sure.
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32. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 3:35 AM (in response to Tai Lao)'Photographers' that don't exhibit their photographs are well... you figure it out.
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33. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 3:36 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Incidentally, Snow Leopard may have improved the Finder's ability to handle creation of thumbnails out of ProPhotoRGB image files.
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34. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 3:40 AM (in response to Tai Lao)Obviously not.
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35. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 3:43 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
'Photographers' that don't exhibit their photographs are well... you figure it out.
Who said I was a professional photographer? I don't need to make a living from my photographs, nor did I ever said I did. That doesn't mean I have not accumulated tens of thousands of film negatives and over ten thousand digital images over the last seven decades.
You live in a very limited world, Mr. Lanham. "Photographer" is hardly the most coveted title. Your ad hominem attacks speak volumes about your little profession.
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Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了
ADDED: over the last seven decades
Message was edited by: Tai Lao
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36. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 3:45 AM (in response to Tai Lao)You are to be envied no doubt. <g>
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37. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 3:47 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)Ron Lanham wrote:
You are to be envied no doubt. <g>
…and you are to be pitied, sir.
A simple thank you would have sufficed.
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Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了
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38. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Ron Lanham Oct 14, 2010 3:52 AM (in response to Tai Lao)Thank you for being a PITA <g>
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39. Re: Thumbnail colors way off with ProPhoto profile
Tai Lao Oct 14, 2010 4:15 AM (in response to Ron Lanham)There's no need to thank me for that, sir; you surpass me by far in that respect. I concede your superiority in that art.
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Wo Tai Lao Le
我太老了





