23 Replies Latest reply on Nov 16, 2010 6:38 PM by dkvfx_uk

    FULL HD 3D output

    Cadornato

      We are doing a project that will play on the new Panasonic 3D TV.

       

      1.  What is the best way to output the file in Aftereffects?

       

      2.  Is Checkerboard and Active Shutter the same thing?

       

      3.  From what I was reading, it seems like we need to use the 3d Glasses filter in AE and then create the side by side comparison...is this correct?

       

      Any help would be great

        • 1. Re: FULL HD 3D output
          Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

          1.  What is the best way to output the file in Aftereffects?

           

          You can't. Such files must be specifically encoded to support BluRay 3D or any custom video formats that do 3D. AE only does anaglyph 3D (that red/ cyan thing), nothing more (which also already partially answers your question no. 3)

           

          2.  Is Checkerboard and Active Shutter the same thing?

           

          No. Checkerboard is just an encoding pattern that tiles the content in specific regions instead of doing it line by line in an alternating pattern. Has nothing to do with how it's actually being viewed - both methods can, in theory, be used with polarized glasses as well as active shutter glasses, but for practical reasons most LCD screens wil luse lines, whereas checkerboard is used byy projectors a lot.

           

          3.  From what I was reading, it seems like we need to use the 3d Glasses filter in AE and then create the side by side comparison...is this correct?

           

          No, you just render two separate sequences, an interlaced sequence at double the framerate or a side-by-side sequence and feed that into your encoder, which as already mentioned must be some external tool at this point...

           

          Mylenium

          • 2. Re: FULL HD 3D output
            Navarro Parker Level 3

            Correct me if I'm wrong, but using the Nvidia active shutter glasses (and card) is the only way to preview "real" 3D on the desktop.

             

            I think most AE 3D preview workflows use anaglyph glasses.

            • 3. Re: FULL HD 3D output
              Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

              Yes, for previewing one would use that effect, but not to produce the final output. I'm not sure if using NVidia exclusively is required. I've read somewhere that ATI supports this in their latest drivers as well and all kommercial desktop software BluRay/ DVD players decode BD 3D, so in theory any shutter glasses should be usable as long as they work on the system on a more general level....

               

              Mylenium

              • 4. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                dkvfx_uk

                How would you preview/playback any work you've done in After Effects. Is there some kind of Quicktime codec?

                • 5. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                  Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                  If you have respective hardware and a supported editing host, you can use Cineform's Neo 3D. Other than that the oldschool way of generating a anaglyph stero version for viewing on any screen with red/green or red/blue glasses will have to do.

                   

                  Mylenium

                  • 6. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                    dkvfx_uk Level 1

                    Chris Keller has written some fabulous scripts for After Effects which deal with all aspects of a 3d workflow including final outputs of interlaced/side by side/and r eye & l eye. He's made that available for free.

                     

                    I can't believe you then have to spend $3,000 on Neo 3D which is effectively a plugin to then output to a display.

                     

                    I've been trawling around the internet for days finding out what I can, and information seems to be patchy at best.

                     

                    There seems to be little information about setting up a full system workflow.

                     

                    As for Neo 3D, it says it supports Macs but I cannot find any information about setting up for macs for 3D. Sometimes you get a lead which becomes a dead end or sends you right back to the start.

                     

                    Anaglyph is not an option, not if you're seriously wanting to review Stereoscopic VFX work.

                    • 7. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                      bogiesan-gyyClL Level 3

                      dk, you're way further into this than I am but I've been experimenting with 3D output since AE started shipping with cameras. My initial experiments were simple 3D scene with a two-camera rig parented to a null. I rendered the left camera, I rendered the right camera. I used a simple deinterlace operation to combine the two images into a single DV clip and played this back through some cheap shutter glasses. Back in those days, my RAIDs could maybe play two streams of DV but ltwo larger frame sizes or more complex codecs was completely out of the question.

                       

                      My current Mac for Final Cut will play simultaneous HD streams if they are converted to one of the ProRes family of codecs and I store them on separate physical drives (no RAIDs on this rig). I don't know how else you would preview your stereoscopic images in real time since you can only render one camera at a time out of AE.

                       

                      Sorry not to be able to add anything to your quest. Thanks for bringing up the topic and I'll enjoy watching the information develop. Hope you find what you need in an affordable package.

                       

                      bogiesan

                      • 8. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                        dkvfx_uk Level 1

                        To be fair, it was Cadornato who stated this thread. I'm just jumping on this bandwagon, well because everyone wants 3d now... even if they don't know the difference between 3d and stereoscopic. James Cameron has got a lot to answer to.

                         

                        The current trend (in the last year or so) is to shoot in traditional 2d, either on film or digitally and then post-dimensionalize the 3d in post. Technical problems an calibration issues with shooting stereoscopic is still plaguing current movie production schedules, but the problems are being overcome blindingly quickly.

                        So now there is a vast void between 2d visual effects and Stereoscopic visual effects. I bet this time next year, a stereoscopic workflow will be expected without a second thought.

                         

                        Its for this reason, amongst others, that Nuke has had an incredible surge in popularity. but at several thousand pounds per seat (£12,000 for the full suite) its way out of the range of the freelance artist, who also has to rely on a bunch of other software to fulfil his or her requirements. Especially as clients and producers hope to see their costs come down, because "surely that's easier now. Don't you just press a button for a 3d dinosaur.... Oh by the way we want it stereoscopic, composited into our pro-sumer shot stereoscopic hd footage. Even Nuke doesnt resolve a 3d monitor image... I dont think.

                         

                        So the lecture over, heres the thing.

                         

                        After "Band of Brothers" I had the opportunity to use a Cinewave breakout box and card which allowed a direct feed from After Effects to a video monitor, not a preview window, but a Direct feed. That ability for a preview output is still in the After Effects preference panel.... so where is the ability to Directly preview to a 3d tv/monitor with off the shelf graphic interfaces.

                         

                        I think Adobe really missed the boat on this one. AE CS5 was a pretty poor step up from CS4, appart from fixing memory issues which shouldnt have been present in CS4. As probably the most used tool for creating motion graphics, what are all those poor users going to do when they see their projects screened in stereoscopic for the first time with their clients having the only method to review their work using anaglyph glasses. You might as well review your progress after getting punched squarely in the face by Mike Tyson before you hit ram preview.

                         

                        It should be just there... not with work arounds or ridiculously expensive plugins. Its not even that hard to produce the various output comps to send to a stereoscopic monitor in whatever form is required.

                         

                        Ok... I've finished my rant now

                         

                        I hope I'm not upsetting those who have inputed information to this post, its just that it seems to be impossible to get the full picture, or an example of a set up that works... even from those that provide solutions. Its like everyone is running around like headless chickens trying to patch things together to get something that "kinda works". (which isn't far from whats happening in the world of visual effects)

                         

                        To add another train of thought. In the olden days you could import footage from a DV camera, add some vfx and then export back to the camera. My train of thought was that you could do the same with the range of domestic stereoscopic cameras. You could export to one of these cameras in exactly the same format as you import, and so you could then connect the camera to your 3d tv and review your progress. Its not live but its better than nothing. But reading the caveats that are listed with such cameras, its difficult to know that you could do anything like that without spending £1,500 on a Panasonic 3d camera only to find out you can't.

                         

                         

                        Hmmm

                        • 9. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                          Cadornato Level 1

                          Mylenium,

                           

                          I really appreciate all the information you have given so far.  However I still have a few questions.  Basically what I am doing is creating a "Power point LIKE" presentation for a client.  Basically the client wants to present information on the new Panasonic TV using the Active Shutter glasses.  There will be no live action footage, only animated graphics with Bullet points, like you would see on a typical presentation.

                           

                          So if I understand you correctly, is there any way to do this in AE? or any Adobe product.  The client is going to send me the new Panasonic 3d TV with the glasses so I can test it out.

                           

                          Do I need a special graphics card also and to buy the Cineform plugin?  Just to let you know we are using CS5.

                           

                          Thank you so much!

                          Chris

                          • 10. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                            Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                            Here are a couple of pages full of resources for stereoscopic 3D in After Effects:

                             

                            - After Effects Portal

                            - Adobe website

                            • 11. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                              dkvfx_uk Level 1

                              Here's an email I've fired off to Blackmagic concerning their Intensity Capture graphics card which might be the bridging the gaps we need.

                               

                              Even though we are not capturing HD, After Effects needs this kind of hardware to utilise the preview function.

                               

                              Its only $199 and would not require Neo 3D. Hurrah!

                               

                              Keep your fingers crossed that I get a positive response from Blackmagic. I bet they haven't even thought of this.

                               

                              Hi

                              I am looking for a simple 3d stereoscopic solution for previewing my VFX work from within After Effects or whatever.


                              Here's my conclusions/questions combined.


                              The Panasonic Viera range of 3D tv's accept a 1920x1080 HDMI signal. If that input is in the form of  stereoscopic 'side by side', then the TV automatically resolves the signal into a 3D active display image.


                              Information for this gleaned from:

                              youtube.com/watch?v=IHD5NBrWXxo

                              about 3 seconds in.


                              Your Intensity shuttle, described in the software section, can output an HDMI signal directly to a monitor, including using the preview section of After Effects (although, it only mentions RGB, not HDMI...not sure if this is relevant)


                              SO...does this mean we could use the Intensity to to display stereoscopic images.


                              Also the Shuttle uses USB 3.0.... eh. I don't think any macs ship with that.


                              Any help would be appreciated, as I am not the only one troubled with finding a solution.

                              • 12. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                dkvfx_uk Level 1

                                Unfortunately, I've already seen those pages, and they actually give quite vague results.

                                 

                                They all also point to using Cineform Neo3D which is pretty expensive for a plug-in, and you still have to get the hardware. As you try to figure out what you need, especially trying to spec up a Mac, information gets vague or non-existant.

                                 

                                What would be useful is examples of setups, software, hardware and displays

                                • 13. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                  dkvfx_uk Level 1

                                  Well I got a reply from Blackmagic, and they seemed to be pointing a solution at Decklink HD Extreme 3D. But I had a few more questions:

                                   

                                  "So you are saying that the Decklink HD Extreme 3D does not require a 3rd party

                                  plugin (like Cineform Neo3D) and that generated quicktimes for left and right

                                  eye can be played through Decklink to a 3d Monitor via an HDMI Cable."

                                   

                                  they replied:

                                   

                                  "Decklink HD Extreme 3D only works with our own software, to generate the

                                  muxed video from 2 individual video files. As such it does not require any

                                  plug ins, as this is software provided free with the card.

                                   

                                  This software however is only for capture or playback, and it is not used in

                                  conjunction with editing software for playback while editing etc."

                                   

                                  So I guess that's a no then.

                                   

                                  Christoph Keller talks abut this:

                                   

                                  "I found this workaround for an external 3D monitor: Connect the 3D monitor to your second video output. Open your left and right image (side-by-side or interlaced, depending on your monitor) in a new panel, lock the viewer, drag the panel to the second monitor, maximize it and hide all the icons (there are shortcuts for this)."

                                   

                                  at  Adobe Forums: Stereoscopic Monitoring

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  Christoph also talks about this:                            Matrox Graphics - Products - Graphics eXpansion Module - DualHead2Go

                                   

                                  "One thing that should certainly work: You can connected a Matrox Dualhead to the second monitor output and show a fullscreen side-by-side viewer on its Desktop. The Dualhead then splits left and right into separate streams, and you can feed these two cables into any 3D monitor that accepts two inputs."

                                   

                                  And this is what Maxon say about their DualHead:  

                                   

                                  "How does DualHead2Go work?

                                  Your computer's video output normally allows only one monitor to be connected to it. If instead of plugging a monitor into your system's video output you plug in a DualHead2Go, your computer interprets this device as one double-wide monitor, so it outputs a single extra-wide image. As you have two monitors connected to your DualHead2Go, the DualHead2Go takes the left half of this extra-wide image it receives from your computer and sends it to your left monitor, and sends the right half to your right monitor. In this manner, DualHead2Go effectively lets you drive two separate monitors from a single video output. "

                                   

                                  So it looks like that could work. You'ld even be able to view your comps as you work. Now to find a 3d TV that could support this.

                                  • 14. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                    bogiesan-gyyClL Level 3

                                    So it looks like that could work. You'ld even be able to view your comps as you work. Now to find a 3d TV that could support this.

                                     

                                    You'll forgive my ignorance but how would you use two viewers in After Effects? Can you not only run one at a time? And then only after a low rez RAM Preview file has been created or saved to disk?

                                    How is being able to display two viewports helpful since they cannot play in sync?

                                    Does an external box or a card make it possible?

                                     

                                    Thanks for starting this thread, interesting reading. Could be helpful for many others as popularity of stereoscopic production grows.

                                     

                                    bogiesan

                                    • 15. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                      dkvfx_uk Level 1

                                      The DualHead basically cheats your computer into thinking that the resolution of your secondary monitor is twice the width it actually is, so a single left eye/right eye comp window, full screen, would then be split to two monitor outputs which you could recombine with a dual input 3d monitor.

                                       

                                      Whether or not you can open one preview window with L and R images side by side and display this across the two virtual monitors, I don't know.

                                       

                                      I have seen evidence of people using the DualHead to create 3D images by lining up 2 projectors, but then they're not using After Effects, or quicktime.

                                       

                                      Yes I know I don't have all the answers yet, and there's still limitations. I've sent off an email to Matrox to see what their tech guys think.

                                       

                                      To be honest it might all go belly up at the dual input display connectivity.

                                       

                                      RealD have some sexy bits of kit:

                                       

                                      RealD - The New 3D - Dual Input POD - Professional takes two individual images and combines them into one Stereoscopic image. But its $2000.

                                       

                                      Oh hum

                                      • 16. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                        dkvfx_uk Level 1

                                        Well, That's answered that question.

                                         

                                        Check out this article:

                                         

                                        Review: Matrox DualHead2Go Digital Edition

                                         

                                        you'll see that it treats the dual display like one big monitor, so a fullscreen comp window or a quicktime with right and left images will be separated to R&L eye

                                        signals.

                                         

                                        Now to find a 3D display with R&L eye HDMI/DVI inputs

                                         

                                        I don't think one exits.

                                        • 17. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                          ChrisProsser Adobe Employee

                                          I see there are a lot of questions about how to preview stereo 3D from AE.

                                           

                                          Please keep in mind what your final display is. You must actually watch it at the final physical size to know if you really did anything correctly. Perception of 3D is very dependent on the physical size and your relation to the monitor/device.

                                           

                                          I've talked to a number of people that have been doing 3D stereo work in AE for years. They were targetting film so anything on the desktop was really a preview. Yes, the current workflow is not the ideal workflow, but it's completely doable.

                                           

                                          Previewing is done by anaglyph (if you don't care about color); freeview side by side; freeview cross-eyed; or with prism glasses. You do not need a monitor with shutter glasses or equivelent, and as people have pointed out, AE has limited support for that workflow in CS5.

                                           

                                          Freeview (gives me a headache): http://www.angelfire.com/ca/erker/freeview.html

                                          Prism glasses: http://www.berezin.com/3d/3dprism.htm

                                           

                                          For freeview or prism, create a left eye and right eye comp. Create a new comp called something like 'Preview' that is double the width of the eyes. Nest the eyes side by side depending on your preference (i.e. if you are cross eyed freeview, or parallel with prism). To create the anaglyph you'll want to use the '3D Glasses' effect which is unfortunately limited to 8 bit in CS5. You can also grab this pixel bender effect if you need a 16 bit or 32 bit workflow: http://aeportal.blogspot.com/2010/04/optimized-anaglyph-filter-pixel-bender.html

                                           

                                          Sorry it's still sorta the wild west out there. I didn't have a chance to actually test the workflows I wrote about step by step, so please forgive me if I overlooked something.

                                           

                                          --chris

                                          • 18. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                            bogiesan-gyyClL Level 3

                                            ChrisProsser wrote:

                                            For freeview or prism, create a left eye and right eye comp. Create a new comp called something like 'Preview' that is double the width of the eyes. Nest the eyes side by side depending on your preference (i.e. if you are cross eyed freeview, or parallel with prism). To create the anaglyph you'll want to use the '3D Glasses' effect which is unfortunately limited to 8 bit in CS5. You can also grab this pixel bender effect if you need a 16 bit or 32 bit workflow: http://aeportal.blogspot.com/2010/04/optimized-anaglyph-filter-pixel-b ender.html

                                            --chris

                                            Excellent, thanks, Chris, I totally forgot about nesting the left and right views into a third comp. Of course, you're limited here by the ability of yoru machine to keep up with your desire to see real time or full rez previews.

                                             

                                            Here's a weirdly cool toy that adds to the confusion:

                                             

                                            http://www.macrumors.com/2010/11/08/hasbro-to-launch-30-my3d-accessory-for-iphone-and-ipod -touch/

                                             

                                            bogiesan

                                            • 19. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                              dkvfx_uk Level 1

                                              Thats one way to review your work. I wonder if they'll do one for the iPad for that hi-rez look.

                                               

                                              To add further confusion, a colleague of mine is using a JVC 3D tv and claims that he is outputting a side by side HD image from his Avid and by simply telling the TV its side by side, the image is formed into Stereoscopic.

                                               

                                              Nothing fancy required.

                                               

                                              I don't think my local Curry's would be happy if I walk in with my macbook and start fiddling around with one of there tele's to test this.

                                               

                                              BTW, got a reply back from Matrox which was next to useless. Just a link to a page on their website I've already read.

                                               

                                              Anyway, here it is:

                                               

                                              Matrox Graphics - Press - Feature Stories

                                              • 20. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                                ChrisProsser Adobe Employee

                                                To add further confusion, a colleague of mine is using a JVC 3D tv and  claims that he is outputting a side by side HD image from his Avid and  by simply telling the TV its side by side, the image is formed into  Stereoscopic.

                                                 

                                                Yep. HDMI allows several modes for 3D: http://www.hdmi.org/manufacturer/hdmi_1_4/3d.aspx

                                                 

                                                • Frame, line, or field alternative    methods
                                                • Side by side methods (full    and half)
                                                • 2D plus depth methods

                                                 


                                                It wouldn't surprise me if many tv's provide a manual override in case the bitstream doesn't contain the correct metadata (much like the aspect button).

                                                 

                                                --chris

                                                • 21. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                                  hinklor

                                                  So basically all we need to do is output a comp with the 3D glasses effect set to side-by-side to a 3DTV that has a manual override and bingo, stereoscopic 3D preview ? At half resolution of course. But it would still be a major improvement over anaglyph previewing.

                                                   

                                                  Will test this out if i can get my hands on a 3D tv with manual override.

                                                  • 22. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                                    bogiesan-gyyClL Level 3

                                                    http://www.nvidia.com/object/product-quadro-4000-mac-us.html

                                                     

                                                    There's an optional 3D hardware support doodad for shutter glasses. And the claim at Nvidia is "optimized for maximum Adobe CS5 output" whatever THAT means.

                                                     

                                                    http://images.nvidia.com/products/quadro-4000-mac/quadro-4000-mac-cable-3qtr-medium.png

                                                     

                                                    bogiesan

                                                    • 23. Re: FULL HD 3D output
                                                      dkvfx_uk Level 1

                                                      Yes, Nvidia is the way to go for full res Stereoscopic. But I hate the way that these folks hint at a CS5 usage, but have no workflow examples.

                                                       

                                                      I've come to an assumption. Its all about resolution, and obviously full res 3d.

                                                       

                                                      Say you have a monitor that runs at 1920x1200. Obviously this monitor would be 3d capable. So a Nvidia graphics card steps in to create your stereoscopic image... somehow... and you can view with your shutter glasses with compatible software. I'm sure Cineform Neo3D will pop up its ugly expensive head if you want to view on a 3d tv. I think this plugin basically conforms your output to 1920x1080 HDMI.

                                                       

                                                      So here's my current train of thought. A second monitor designed to work at 1920x1080. There's loads of these, and pretty cheap. Using a DVI/HDMI spliiter, this output can also be sent to a 3d tv with side by side settings on.

                                                       

                                                      Now most of the time, the image on the 3d tv will be gobbledegook. But once you offer up a comp in After Effects on your second monitor with a side by side GUI free image you should then get an image on your 3d tv, albeit horizontally half rez.

                                                       

                                                      hopefully hinkle will be able to test this out.

                                                       

                                                      I also might be able to get my hands on a 3d tv in a couple of days...hopefully I'll be able to persuade the owners to let me try it out.

                                                       

                                                      Anybody else actually trying this?