24 Replies Latest reply on Nov 9, 2010 7:55 AM by Colin Brougham

    Link to Subclips!

    michaelkaidbey

      I really have to get back to the client if this can be done! If not they are going to take it to Final Cut, and use Glue Tools!

      PLEASE HELP!

       

      I'm sub-titling a movie and I made every sub-title into a 1 frame subclip.

      It  worked great. I moved the project and media to another computer and all  my reels linked and the only problem I have is that none of the  subclips will link.

      The reel(s) that the subclips came from linked, but the subclips will not.

      When I made the subclips I named them Sub1, Sub2 etc. . .

      I have hundreds of sub-titles and I really do not want to remake them.

      Is there a way to link my subclips?

       

      Thanks

        • 1. Re: Link to Subclips!
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          I don't understand.  Subtitles are simply title files that get placed in the lower third of the screen.  Subclips are portions of a Master video clip trimmed and created as a separate clip in the bin, but still linking to the same media clip on the hard drive.

           

          These are two different things.  I don't understand how the first can become the latter.

          • 2. Re: Link to Subclips!
            michaelkaidbey Level 1

            These subtitles came to me from film. There are 3 reels of film that have these subtitle and hicons (Hold-out-mat).

            The problem is that the film has a lot of film weave and even more dirt. The only way I could find a good frame of the foreground (subtitle) and a good frame of the hicon, is to make a subclip of one frame of each.

            I used Track_Matte to key it and it looks great. So what I have is a  subclip of each subtitle and a subclip of each corresponding hicon. When I moved the project to the other computer they did not link! Everything else did and in my timeline the clips are there with "MEDIA MISSING" message.

             

            Thanks

            • 3. Re: Link to Subclips!
              Colin Brougham Level 6

              I believe that subclips should automatically be relinked so long as the master clip they are derived from is online. Are the original subtitle master clips online, or are they offline? Subclips are not independent references to media files, so those originals still need to be referenced by the master clips within the project--otherwise, the subclips are pointing to offline media.

               

              And just to clarify: you actually created subclips, and didn't export individual frames?

              • 4. Re: Link to Subclips!
                michaelkaidbey Level 1

                That is what I also though,. When I created the subclips, just like any other software I have used, they linked back to the original clip.

                To answer your question the original master clip is online. I have 3 reels "Main_Titles, Sub_Titles and Locals". Each one of those reels is online and that is what I used to make my subclips. They linked on the new system without any effort, they actually did not require me to point to them because the media structure is exactly the same.

                At some point I thought that maybe Premiere creates a new clip and it is in a folder that did not carry over! but I looked and checked prefreances and could not find any indication of that.

                Thanks for the continued input.

                 

                Michael

                • 5. Re: Link to Subclips!
                  Colin Brougham Level 6

                  OK, interesting--this is why I don't like subclips in Premiere and usually avoid them.

                   

                  I just did a quick test, subclipping a master clip a couple times, and dropping the subclips into a sequence. Then, I took the master clip offline. Lo and behold, the subclips stayed online--that's not what I was expecting. I expected that taking the master clip offline would cause any subclips created from it to follow suit; the reverse would also be true when putting the master clip back online. Weird. Apparently, subclips ARE independent references, which doesn't seem to be standard practice in other NLEs (at least Avid, where I did use subclips because the actually worked well).

                   

                  So, try this: select all of your offline subclips in the bin, right-click, and select Link Media. Navigate and select the first media file that Premiere asks for (you can use the "Display Only Exact Name Matches" checkbox if it helps) and hit Select; so long as the remaining media files are in the same relative path, Premiere should automatically relink the rest of them. Because the subclips are based off of the original master clip/media file's timecode, all of the subclips should come back online in their correct time frames.

                   

                  Does that fix it?

                   

                  (For what it's worth, I wouldn't call this a bug, but it's definitely not right. IMO, subclips should be beholden to the master clips that they are generated from, and not independent entities. Again, this is why I don't like subclipping in Premiere. Time for a feature request...)

                  • 6. Re: Link to Subclips!
                    michaelkaidbey Level 1

                    Thanks for doing that. I did try to right click and point to the master clip. (one file at a time). The problem I have is that my source is a DPX stack!! It is a holder with a kabillion (a lot) of DPX files. Premiere wants me to find THE correct file (frame) in the DPX folder and it cannot find it by just pointing to the folder or the first file. Now at 86400 frames per hour that is longer that re doing the whole thing.

                    This is why I'm using Premiere because it natively works with DPX 2K files.

                    Going back to your point, when I point to any of the DPX files in the stack Premiere is satisfied (lack of a better term) to use it!

                    Which tells me it is not reading the Metadata that is in every frame!? Or that information is not in the subclip? so it cannot identify it!?

                    So many questions that I'm not qualified to answer and I hope someone at Adobe can help us on this one.

                    As far as it being a bug, I agree. Some one has to tell me that I did not follow the procedure for creating a subclip or it is a bug.

                    I did a sample of this job on Smoke, before I tried Premiere and it worked well. But premiere is so much easier to use . .

                    Thanks again for the input lets keep it going.

                    • 7. Re: Link to Subclips!
                      michaelkaidbey Level 1

                      Thanks for doing that. I did try to right click and point to the master clip. (one file at a time). The problem I have is that my source is a DPX stack!! It is a holder with a kabillion (a lot) of DPX files. Premiere wants me to find THE correct file (frame) in the DPX folder and it cannot find it by just pointing to the folder or the first file. Now at 86400 frames per hour that is longer that re doing the whole thing.

                      This is why I'm using Premiere because it natively works with DPX 2K files.

                      Going back to your point, when I point to any of the DPX files in the stack Premiere is satisfied (lack of a better term) to use it!

                      Which tells me it is not reading the Metadata that is in every frame!? Or that information is not in the subclip? so it cannot identify it!?

                      So many questions that I'm not qualified to answer and I hope someone at Adobe can help us on this one.

                      As far as it being a bug, I agree. Some one has to tell me that I did not follow the procedure for creating a subclip or it is a bug.

                      I did a sample of this job on Smoke, before I tried Premiere and it worked well. But premiere is so much easier to use . .

                      Thanks again for the input lets keep it going.

                      • 8. Re: Link to Subclips!
                        Jim_Simon Level 8
                        The problem I have is that my source is a DPX stack!!

                         

                        That could very well be the issue, with every 'frame' being an actual independent image file, and not part of a single media file.

                        • 9. Re: Link to Subclips!
                          michaelkaidbey Level 1

                          I think you are correct. And I think that if Premiere wants to edit with DPX files it should be able to identify and find a source. It is like being able to match frame, if it can do that either by time code of metadata it should find a subclip.

                          I'm still not ruling out the fact that there might be a way to relink these subclips and someone at Adobe will come out and tell us how to do it.

                          • 10. Re: Link to Subclips!
                            Colin Brougham Level 6

                            OK. The plot thickens

                             

                            I'm having a little trouble visualizing your workflow here--I didn't realize that you were working with DPX/image sequences. Are the DPX sequences the scans of the subtitles? You have three of these, and you imported each using the Numbered Stills option, so that they act like video clips, correct? And then you subclipped from these to create individual frames?

                             

                            I want to see if I can replicate what you're seeing, and I can't at the moment--can you provide as much detail as you can to fill in the gaps in my understanding?

                            • 11. Re: Link to Subclips!
                              Colin Brougham Level 6

                              So, Jim gets the points for not really answering the question?

                               

                              Anyway, I think I might know what's going on, if you indeed were subclipping the DPX sequences. Did you change the framerate of the imported DPX sequences from whatever they defaulted to? For example, on my system, media without a specific framerate imports as 29.97; I can change this by right-clicking > Modify > Interpret Footage and setting a custom framerate. The subclips you create from this sequence assume that interpreted framerate. So, if I import an image sequence, it starts as 29.97, then I interpret to 24, and then create subclips which default to 24.

                               

                              If I take those subclips offline, and then relink them, they GO BACK to 29.97--throwing their relative placement all off. However, if I summarily select them, right-click > Modify > Interpret footage and set the framerate to 24, the subclips move to their correct time positions. To put them online, I only need to select the first image in the sequence (as is requested by Premiere); the program seems to be aware that these came from an image sequence, even if their initial reference is thrown off.

                               

                              How does that strike you?

                              • 12. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                michaelkaidbey Level 1

                                Ok!

                                I have every reel of the movie (6 reels) as a folder. I also have 1 reel (folder) for main titles, another for Locals and another for Subtitles.

                                I imported all of them using the Numbered Stills option.

                                All of these files came from scanning film into 2K DPX files. The reels with the titles, locals and subtitles are very dirty and have bad film weave. So I had to pick a somewhat clean frame of each to use.

                                This is where subclipping came up.

                                All of the above worked without any issues. The key looked great and when I masked each title I got rid of all the dirt.

                                When I moved to another computer because of scheduling issues I could not link to these subclips.

                                This is basicaly where I am.

                                • 13. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                  Colin Brougham Level 6

                                  OK, check my post above ^^^

                                  • 14. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                    michaelkaidbey Level 1

                                    When I created the project I told it that it is 23.976 which is the frame rate of all the clips.

                                    I saw that they were 29.97 at one point because I did not have the Raid that had all the media mounted on my computer. I was very concerned at the time but I closed the program mounted the raid and when I re luncked it it all came back as 23.976.

                                    The unlinked subclips still had 29.97 and I did do exactly what you sugested and made  them 23.976 but still they are not linking.

                                    There might be a step in the order that I'm missing or maybe the order is not correct!?

                                    At some point the project or the program lost touch with these subclips and either frame rate or other issues are preventing them from re-linlking.

                                    I want to try creating a subclip on the new system and loading the project on the old to see if the new subclips will link in there!!

                                    I think I confused myself and everybody else on this one!!

                                    Great ideas guys thanks a lot.

                                    I'm going to forward this discussion to a friend who works with Adobe on many levels and go from there.

                                    • 15. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                      Colin Brougham Level 6

                                      So, none of the subclips will relink? Or after you relink one, it asks for the next, ad nauseum? I don't have a DPX sequence to test, but I tried a couple TIF sequences and after finding the first requested file (Image_0000.tif, for example), it connects all other subclips. After reinterpreting the frame rate, they move into their correct positions.

                                      • 16. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                        michaelkaidbey Level 1

                                        I was hopping to get the same result. I thought that since Premiere was able to read the Timecode of all these reels when I loaded them and is able to match frame to these reels, it will be able to relink.

                                        I will keep trying!!

                                        • 17. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                          Colin Brougham Level 6

                                          I just downloaded a short DPX sequence I found (doesn't seem to have timecode--it starts at 00:00:00:00), and I tried your workflow. Subclipping, knocking the subs offline, and then relinking (and reinterpreting) worked fine.

                                           

                                          Do your DPX sequences have set timecode, or do they all start at 00:00:00:00? If they actually do have timecode, maybe this is the problem--perhaps that information is not being preserved in the subclips. The non-timecoded sequences work, because the subclips are all relative references to the first frame of the sequence. Interesting.

                                          • 18. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                            michaelkaidbey Level 1

                                            The DPX files I have do have Timecode. The 6 movie reels have continuous code and If I edit them together I will get the complete movie. The Hicon reels have hour 1 TC. I was giving each subclip a name, Main_1, Main_2 for the ones from the Main title reel and Sub_1 etc. for the ones from the subtitle reel and so on.

                                            I'm not in front of the project now, but what I will do is look at a subclip next week and try to find out what metadata is in a subclip. Maybe we can reverse engineer it?!

                                            Thx.

                                            Michael

                                            • 19. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                              SteveHoeg Adobe Employee

                                              Here is what you want to do. Multi-select all subclips in the project panel, right click and choose "Link Media", then select the first still in your image sequence on disk to relink to. Despite not being very intuitive this should relink all subclips to the proper frames. Subclips have quite a few rough edges.

                                              • 20. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                                michaelkaidbey Level 1

                                                I did that, but the files link to the frame that

                                                I point to! If I point to the first one they all turn into that frame.

                                                I can point them to anyone of the DPX frames and that's what they become!!

                                                • 21. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                                  Colin Brougham Level 6

                                                  Something is definitely borked with your project file, because I cannot make this NOT work. I tried duplicating the project file, and moving the DPX files into a different folder to force the subclips to be offline when I opened the duplicate project. No matter what, I was always able to relink to the first image in the sequence, and all subclips pulled the correct frames (after reinterpreting frame rate, of course). It sounds like you're doing all the same, so I cannot imagine why it's not working for you.

                                                   

                                                  The only thing I can think of is that possibly the timecode got set to the same value for all of the subclips; when looking at the list of them in the Project Panel, are the Media Start timecodes the same for all of the subclips? Like this:

                                                   

                                                  subclips.png

                                                  • 22. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                                    michaelkaidbey Level 1

                                                    All indications point to the fact that the


                                                    project has a problem.

                                                     

                                                    I will be working on this project first thing Monday. I will check all of these issues that have been discussed here.
                                                    I have the original project and a few variations of it and I should be able to trace the problem.
                                                    BTW The sub clips have different time codes.
                                                    I will have real answers before the day is over on Monday.

                                                     

                                                     

                                                     


                                                    • 23. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                                      michaelkaidbey Level 1

                                                      Ok!

                                                      Here are the steps I took.

                                                       

                                                      -I brought in the original project (before moving it to the second computer).

                                                      -I linked all the reels (Reels 1-6 and all the title reels).

                                                      After linking the reels they appeared as 29.97 which is strange because the default frame rate is 23.976!

                                                      -I modified them to 23.976.

                                                      -I linked all the Sub clips, which also came in as 29.97.

                                                      -I modified them to 23.976.

                                                       

                                                      At this point it worked!

                                                      I think that I must have missed a step originally, or did the steps in a different order.

                                                      If I was to link the subclips before linking the  reels or modifying the  reels to 23.976, it would have failed.

                                                       

                                                      I want to thank everyone for their help and I used a bit of information from each post to get this resolved.

                                                       

                                                      Thank you.

                                                      • 24. Re: Link to Subclips!
                                                        Colin Brougham Level 6

                                                        Hey, that's great to hear. Knew we'd get to the bottom of it, with a little diligence!

                                                         

                                                        Best of luck with the edit.