28 Replies Latest reply on Nov 12, 2010 8:45 AM by DennisFreeman#1 Branched from an earlier discussion.

    Rendering Problems

    DennisFreeman#1

      I'm a new forum user.  Could someone please point me in the right direction.

       

      I've owned CS3, CS4 and now CS5.

       

      My computer is a HP model m9500y 64 bit 8gig machine.

       

      I've never had any problems rendering in After Effects until my upgrade to CS5.

       

      When I output or render the file everything runs normally until I view the finished avi file.  There are interference lines and jumpy video every few frames.

       

      When I take the same file and run it on my HP computer at school, everything comes out perfect.

       

      I tried buying a NVidia Graphers Card today, but that didn't help and thing.  Matter of fact, it made it worse.

       

      Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

       

      Thanks,

       

      Dennis

        • 1. Re: Rendering Problems
          DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

          I should point out that I'm not trying to play the file with a media player.  I understand that the file is to large to play smoothly in a media player such as windows or nero.  However, when I import the file into Premier Pro for additional editing and render it from there it still has the interference lines.

          • 2. Re: Rendering Problems
            Todd_Kopriva Level 8

            Post a screenshot of what you're referring to as "interference lines".

             

            What codec are you using for export?

             

            What operating system?

             

            Have you installed the After Effects CS5 (10.0.1) update?

             

            What formats are your source files, and what codecs do they use?

             

            When I take the same file and run it on my HP computer at school, everything comes out perfect.

             

            When you play the file at school that you've rendered at home, it plays perfectly?

            > I tried buying a NVidia Graphers Card today, but that didn't help and thing.  Matter of fact, it made it worse.

             

             

            There's no reason to think that a new graphics card would help with such an issue with After Effects.

             

            In fact, if you're using OpenGL rendering, turn it off.

            • 3. Re: Rendering Problems
              DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

              Hey thanks for the quick response.

               

              I'm new to forum, so be gentle.

               

               

              I'm using Windows 7.

               

              No the file will not play on the school computer either.  I have to render it again at school, and then it plays fine.

               

              I'm wondering if I need to re-install the AE program at home.

               

              How do I get the codec info you need?

               

              Open GL is off.

              Here's some screen shots that will hopefully help you help me.

              Yes, I have undate to 10.1

               

              The original AE files are coming from Video CoPilot.  I then input my own edited video files from Premier Pro.  I input 1920X1080 h.264 25 FPS.

               

              Screen Shot of Premier Output.jpgScreen Shot AE Output Module.jpgScreen Shot AE Render Settings.jpg

              Screen Shot #2.jpgScreen shot of AE file.jpg

              • 4. Re: Rendering Problems
                Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

                Sounds more like you have an issue with WMP's hardware acceleration not working correctly or the little bugger trying too long to identify the file and look for online information on it. Toggling these features and investigating your graphics card settings might imrove the situation. Also consider reinstalling the windows Media stuff by downloading the standalone installer packages from Microsoft....

                 

                Mylenium

                • 5. Re: Rendering Problems
                  DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                  Thanks for the reply.

                   

                  This issue is the same no matter what video player I use. I've tried Nero, Windows, & VLC.  They all preview the file the same way.  I think it's an an issue of rendering within After Effects not playback.

                  • 6. Re: Rendering Problems
                    DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                    Todd,

                     

                     

                    Have you had a chance to review my reponse?

                     

                    Dennis

                    • 7. Re: Rendering Problems
                      Andrew Yoole MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                      While it may not be the cause of your problem, I can see a number of errors in your output settings.

                       

                      Source footage is 23.96 fps.  If you're producing at standard frame rates, you should be shooting at the same frame rate you intend to present with.  Shooting at one frame rate and post-producing at another, without a very specific reason for doing so, is just adding extra time and trouble to your workflow.

                       

                      You're output settings are 1920x1080 at 25 fps, but you define your output standard as NTSC.  This doesn't make sense - what standard are you using?

                       

                      Using H.264 as an intermediate codec (from Premiere to AE) is not a good idea - you're losing quality that way, and H.264 is designed for delivery, not production.  Try using a lossless codec like Quicktime Animation at 100%, or even a slightly lossy codec like Quicktime PhotoJPEG at high quality.

                       

                      You haven't shown what output codec you're using from AE, but it appears you're using the default "Lossless" settings.  The result, a 1920x1080 25fps uncompressed AVI, will be far too big to play from a conventional hard drive.  Unless you have a very fast hard drive RAID array, the file will stutter and/or fail to play.  Perhaps that's the root of your playback issue.

                      • 8. Re: Rendering Problems
                        DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                        I'm shooting in HDV 23.9 FPS 1980X1080.

                         

                        I capture into Premier Pro with those setting on input.

                         

                        Now comes the question.

                         

                        I'm using a Video Copilot After Effects Project which uses 1980X1080 25 FPS.

                         

                        So when I output from Premier Pro, I thinking I should match the FPS.  Therefore, I set output to 25 FPS.  Is that wrong?

                         

                        What should I be doing here.

                         

                        Thanks for you help.

                        • 9. Re: Rendering Problems
                          Andrew Yoole MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                          Are you in the US?  If so, you should be adhering to US TV standards.

                           

                          Shoot in HDV at 29.97 fps.  Post produce at the same frame rate.

                           

                          If you are in a PAL country, like the UK or Australia, shoot at 25fps and post produce at 25 fps.

                           

                          The conversion of frame rates you're currently doing is costing you time and quality.

                          • 10. Re: Rendering Problems
                            DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                            I'm new and learning, so I appreciate any help.

                             

                            I live in Michigan.  I think that's still a part of the US

                             

                            After some homework on the net, I determined that 24 FPS may be more what I wanted to create a "film-like look."

                             

                            Or should I just leave it set at 30FPS and live with that look.

                             

                            Anyway, my footage is all shot at 24 FPS.

                             

                            So what do I do at this point.

                             

                            Frm now on should I shoot at 30FPS?

                             

                             

                            I'm looking in Premier Pro right now.  I can't figure out how to export with 1920X1080 settings without using H.264.  When I use your suggestion of Quicktime the settings change to 720X480.  What am I missing?

                            • 11. Re: Rendering Problems
                              Andrew Yoole MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                              There are those who shoot at 24p to create a more film-like aesthetic, but personally I think it's pretty nonsensical.  Go to any big-budget television shoot for a TV commercial or TV show, and they almost always shoot at 30fps.  Film aesthetic has a lot more to do with lighting, tone, contrast etc, than frame rates.  It's a personal choice, but it WILL cost you processing time, and it complicates the post production workflow.

                               

                              For the stuff you've already shot, either export from Premiere at 29.97 and work in AE at 29.97, or export from Premiere at the native footage rate and let AE handle the re-timing of it to 29.97.  Either way, as you're in Michael Moore's home town :-) , you shouldn't ever be working at 25fps, unless you're shipping the end product to friends in England.

                              • 12. Re: Rendering Problems
                                DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                                Andrew,

                                 

                                Once again thanks for your help.  I've been just stabbing in the dark at this video codec thing.

                                 

                                From now on, I'll shoot at 30FPS in HDV 1920X1080.

                                 

                                Now can you show me what my settings should be in the output mode of Premier to get the highest quality in HDV.

                                 

                                If I re-render my current footage in Premier and output it to the original 24FPS, do you think that will help my After Effect issue?

                                 

                                Thanks,

                                 

                                Dennis

                                • 13. Re: Rendering Problems
                                  Andrew Yoole MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                  You're correct that, bizarrely, there are no HD presets for Quicktime in Premiere Pro.  But you can easily create your own - just leave the preset tab set to Custom and set up as follows:

                                   

                                  Screen shot 2010-11-08 at 10.45.18 AM.png

                                  Note that this is full 1920x1080 HD.  Your HDV camera actually records anamorphic pixels at 1440x1080 with a 1.33 aspect.  You can use these settings if you prefer, and you'll save some hard drive space.

                                   

                                  Yes, you can also output the native specs of your footage - 1440x1080p, 1.33 aspect, 23.976 fps - from Premiere, and let AE do the re-timing.

                                   

                                  Out of interest, what is the end target of your material?  If it's SD, such as a DVD, you may prefer to reduce the footage to SD size at this stage to save drive space etc.

                                  • 14. Re: Rendering Problems
                                    DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                                    Andrew,

                                     

                                    Two questions:

                                     

                                    1.  I'm shooting with a Canon XH A1.  I have the camera set to HDV and the image size to 1920X1080 and then 24FPS.  Which I will change to 30FPS from now on. Here in lies my question.  When I capture that footage into Premier Pro no matter what settings I use for input, it comes in at 1440X1080.  What am I missing?  Is the camera recording at 1920 or 1080?

                                     

                                    2.  Can you guide me through what my export setting should be for outputing for production in Premier Pro for highest quality to regular DVD?

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                    Thanks,

                                     

                                    Dennis

                                    • 15. Re: Rendering Problems
                                      DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                                      Ok Andrew,

                                       

                                      I've copied your screen save.  I've had to enter the 1920X1080 manually is that ok?  I suppose once I've set this up, I could save this as a preset.

                                       

                                      I'm taking all my projects to Standard DVD.

                                       

                                      I, really appreciate your help.

                                       

                                      In the past, all my projects have been 720X480 30FPS and I didn't have near the problems.  But, I'm trying to up my game for the school district.

                                       

                                      I realy don't care about hard drive space.  The school provides my 2TG external hard drives to work with.  That way, I can carry them back and forth from school to home and work on the projects either at home or at school.

                                       

                                      Would you recommend a guy like me getting a service contract or just stick to the forum help?

                                       

                                      Let me get this straight.  You're saying the Quicktime settings you've showed me are higher quality than what I set with the H.264 settings?  Can you tell quality by the size of the MB listed at the bottom of the output box?

                                       

                                      By the way, I just ran a test.  I outputed my video from Premier the same way that I inputed it.  23.976FPS input and output.  Transfered that footage over to the AE Video Copilot Project and bamm, it works now.  So, I understand from that to output the video the same way it came in.  Is that correct?  And, don't worry about copying the same FPS that the AE Project is using.  Let AE worry about that.  Is that correct?

                                       

                                       

                                      Dennis

                                      • 16. Re: Rendering Problems
                                        Andrew Yoole MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                        DennisFreeman#1 wrote:

                                         

                                        I've had to enter the 1920X1080 manually is that ok?  I suppose once I've set this up, I could save this as a preset.

                                         

                                        Yes, and yes.

                                         

                                        Would you recommend a guy like me getting a service contract or just stick to the forum help?

                                         

                                        I wouldn't rush into it.  Once you have the workflow sorted out, you should be good to go.

                                         

                                        Let me get this straight.  You're saying the Quicktime settings you've showed me are higher quality than what I set with the H.264 settings?  Can you tell quality by the size of the MB listed at the bottom of the output box?

                                         

                                        H.264 is a delivery format.  It looks very good considering its small file sizes, but when you try to edit or add effects to it, the loss of quality caused by reducing its size becomes very apparent.

                                         

                                        HDV is also a heavily compressed format, so ideally you should transcode your HDV footage to a lossless format ASAP in your workflow, then don't use any more lossy compression until you burn the stuff to DVD.

                                         

                                        The settings I've shown you use a Lossless format - Quicktime Animation at 100% quality - which preserves every pixel of your footage until it is compressed down the track.  As a general rule, the bigger the final file size, the higher the quality.  But it's better to just know which file formats are suitable and stick to them.

                                        • 17. Re: Rendering Problems
                                          Andrew Yoole MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                          DennisFreeman#1 wrote:

                                           

                                          By the way, I just ran a test.  I outputed my video from Premier the same way that I inputed it.  23.976FPS input and output.  Transfered that footage over to the AE Video Copilot Project and bamm, it works now.  So, I understand from that to output the video the same way in came in.  Is that correct?  And, don't worry about copying the same FPS that the AE Project is using.  Let AE worry about that.  Is that correct?

                                           

                                          Essentially, yes.  You need to make sure that AE is recognising the correct details of your footage:  pixel size, aspect ratio and frame rate.  Right-click on the footage in the project window and choose File Interpretation to check these settings.

                                           

                                          Remember to change your VCP projects to output NTSC (29.97), not PAL(25).

                                          • 18. Re: Rendering Problems
                                            DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                                            Andrew,

                                             

                                            You've been a tremendous help.

                                             

                                            Answer me this.  Is my Canon XH A1 camera recording 1080 or 1920. As best I can tell, it's recording in 1080 even though the camera image size is set to 1920.   If it's recording in 1080, then I should use 1080 as an input and output in Premier Pro.  It that correct?

                                            • 19. Re: Rendering Problems
                                              Andrew Yoole MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                              From Canon's site:

                                              The XH A1 High Definition video camera features three 1/3 inch native 16:9 1440 x 1080 CCDs with pixel shift technology to capture HD video at 1080i resolution.

                                               

                                              Like all HDV, it's 1440x1080 pixels, anamorphically stretched for playback to 1920x1080.

                                              • 20. Re: Rendering Problems
                                                Dad Gone Mad

                                                WOW! This is a heap of helpful info for someone like myself who is now trying to get back into editing. I quickly discovered after buying a Canon Vixia Hd cam that I need to upgrade everything. Now I in the process of building a new editing machine the "piece a payday" way.(Hopefully I'll be able to afford to get CS 5 after I'm done.)  I've done my research and I know which way I'm going with that, But your responses to this post has answered many of the questions I've also wanted to know since I had never dealt with AVCHD files before. Great job Andrew!

                                                • 21. Re: Rendering Problems
                                                  DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                                                  Andrew,

                                                   

                                                  I think I have figured out my rendering problem.

                                                   

                                                  After using all your suggestion settings from the other night, I still was not able to render the complete AE CoPilot project at home.  However, I took the same files to school the next morning and everything I tried work perfect.

                                                   

                                                  Sometimes answers come to me in the middle of the night.  See if this makes sense to you.

                                                   

                                                  I've been using a 2TB external hard drive for the past year without any issues.  I carry this back and forth from home to school so I can work on the same projects in both places.  The school computer is apparently a little more "supped up" than my home computer.  So the problem never occurs at school.

                                                   

                                                  Bottom line is this:

                                                   

                                                  The problems started when I upgraded from CS4 (32 bit) to CS5 (64bit).

                                                   

                                                  I've been asking AE to retrieve information from the external hard drive via USB and then write the rendered file back to the same hard drive via USB.  It occured to me a couple of nights ago that therein may lie the problem.  The hard drive just couldn't handle all that data via USB.

                                                   

                                                  Therefore, I tried an experiment.

                                                   

                                                  Last night, I ask AE to render the same file again.  This time the data was retrieved from the same hard drive, but then written back to the computers internal C hard drive.  Wah-lah!  Perfect!.  No problems.

                                                   

                                                  What do you think?

                                                  • 22. Re: Rendering Problems
                                                    Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                                    I think that you nailed it.

                                                    • 23. Re: Rendering Problems
                                                      DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                                                      Thanks Todd,

                                                       

                                                      What do you think is different about the school's usb that is faster.

                                                      • 24. Re: Rendering Problems
                                                        Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                                        I don't know. It could be any of a number of things. It could be that you're using USB 2.0 on one and USB 1.x on the other.

                                                         

                                                        The strong recommendation is to never read from and write to the same disk at the same time. In other words, keep your input files on one disk, and write your output files to another disk. This greatly improves performance and---as you may have jsut discovered---can prevent problems with data loss and corruption. You're really taxing a drive controller when you tell it to handle high-speed transfers going both directions simultaneously.

                                                        • 25. Re: Rendering Problems
                                                          DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                                                          Thanks,

                                                           

                                                          I appreciate the help you and Andrew have offered.

                                                           

                                                          I'd like to re-visit your forum for best HDV settings for initial capture in Premier, output from Premier to AE (only when special effects seqments are needed), AE back to Premier, and then finally to Encore.

                                                           

                                                          Dennis

                                                          • 26. Re: Rendering Problems
                                                            DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                                                            Todd or Andrew,

                                                             

                                                            I'm trying to establish a "best practices" workflow from Premier Pro to After Effects, back to Premier and then out to Encore for HDV.

                                                             

                                                            Let's take it a step at a time with some screen shots.

                                                             

                                                            Would this be the best output from Premier Pro to Encore for HDV to Standard DVD?Export from Premier.jpg

                                                            • 27. Re: Rendering Problems
                                                              Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                                              See this page for information on how to send video to Encore for a DVD.

                                                              • 28. Re: Rendering Problems
                                                                DennisFreeman#1 Level 1

                                                                Todd,

                                                                 

                                                                Thank you for your response.

                                                                 

                                                                I did follow your Adobe Website suggestions for using Dynamic Link into Encore from Premier Pro.

                                                                 

                                                                Everything worked fine.  However, the quality of the DVD is much lower than my previous DVD projects.

                                                                 

                                                                In the past, I've created a H.264 file using 1920X1080 24FPS settings with Premier.

                                                                 

                                                                Then without using Dynamic Link, I brought that file in as a new timeline in Encore, created my chapters, menus, etc, and burned from there.

                                                                 

                                                                I realize H.264 is usually for broadcast only.  But, I don't see how to output from Premier for HDV.  I believe either you or Andrew suggested I use Quicktime with Animation settins.  However, when I went to output my hour long project, it was going to take 8 hours to render that.

                                                                 

                                                                I need some help with workflow.  If someone could walk me through the process, it would be greatly appreciated.

                                                                 

                                                                I recognize that the H.264 render process does take longer.  However, the finished quality is much higher.

                                                                 

                                                                What am I missing something here?

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                Dennis