18 Replies Latest reply on Nov 15, 2010 3:08 AM by des5080

    Plugin compatibility reports

    des5080

      Firstly - thanks for bring another decent Wave editor to the Mac platform, which is badly underserved with good wave editors imo. While my personal preference is Soundforge, and I've tried *all* the Mac wave editors, I've been pleasantly surprised by Audition in my initial playing with the beta - it's looking very nice indeed.

       

      As far as plugin scanning goes - generally I had good results with my plugin collection. The only ones that gave problems were all the T-racks plugins (both au and vst), and a couple of Flux plugins.

       

      However, the initial scan process was tedious, as if the plugin scan takes ten minutes to complete, once a plugin causes a crash, the plugin scan has to run again for ten minutes until it gets to the next plugin crash and so on - this meant I had to end up running the whole scan maybe thirty times before I got to the end. So what should take ten minutes ended up taking closer to an hour before I could get running.

       

      Suggestions: mark plugins good as they are validated, not once the whole scan is complete. That means on relaunches after plugin init crashes, the whole process doesn't have to keep happening from the beginning - thus resulting in less hair loss

       

      Even better, like some other apps do (Logic, Keymap etc) is to run the plugin scan in a separate process - then if a plugin crashes the scan process, the parent app still runs and can continue the scanning process without the app being taken down.

       

      Good stuff so far!

        • 1. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
          Jay Asher Music

          I totally agree.

          • 2. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
            xgman Level 1

            My thoughts on the plugin scan:

             

            Scanning the VST and AU directories from  the plugin manager is a real adventure. Many, many crashes on  incompatible VST's & AU's (that work fine in other programs) but  upon relaunch it skips them next time, but this could take hours of run  the VST/AU scan, crash on one, restart, eliminate that one, re scan from  the beginning again, crash etc , etc. Very tedious. It should just  automatically make an entire blacklist.  I sure hope this blacklist is  saved from this beta to the final. Did I mention tedious?

            Now that it finally finished, the list of VST and AU effects that did  scan ok don't even show up in the effects menu.  Where are they?  Are they disabled in the beta?

            Also small MP3's take an excessively long time to open.

            • 3. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
              RandB Level 1

              If you're looking for a simple WAV editor for Mac, are used to using Sound Forge on Windows, and have no need for a multi-track editor, your solution is a little application called Twisted Wave.  www.twistedwave.com.  The guy who wrote it was kind enough to incorporate about a dozen enhancements I suggested to make my work flow more closely resemble what it had been when I was working in Sound Forge on Windows.  I now use it all the time to record and edit voice tracks.  It's nice to have Audition as an option once again.  But I'm sure I'll continue using Twisted Wave for my normal, everyday voiceover work.

              • 4. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                des5080 Level 1

                > Now that it finally finished, the list of VST and AU effects that did  scan ok don't even show up in the effects menu.  Where are they?  Are they disabled in the beta?

                 

                Once the scan is complete, the list of plugins show in the AU manager.

                 

                Now you can choose which ones you want to show up in the menus by ticking the checkboxes to the left of each plugin.

                I like this ability to choose which plugins you want available, as it doesn't make sense to show all of your plugins (for instance, instrument plugins, or plugins that you don't want to use in an audio post situation.)

                 

                Thanks for the Twisted Wave recommendation, I'll check that out.

                 

                Another compatibility note: Softube plugins don't display their gui's in Audition...

                • 5. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                  xgman Level 1

                  I'll look in the list again, but I thought I only saw the disabled ones listed and none of the good ones. maybe I need to re-scroll down and see.

                  • 6. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                    des5080 Level 1

                    Nope, all plugins are listed, with the crashed ones listed as "Not working", and the rest as "Working".

                    • 7. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                      Matt_Stegner Adobe Employee

                      "Scanning the VST and AU directories from  the plugin manager is a real  adventure. Many, many crashes on  incompatible VST's & AU's (that  work fine in other programs)"

                       

                      Can you give specific examples please.

                       

                      -MattS

                      • 8. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                        Charles VW Adobe Employee

                        Hi RandB,

                         

                        Which features that are in Twisted Wave do find missing in this Public Beta of Audition?

                        • 9. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                          RandB Level 1

                          Based on what someone has said in another thread on this forum, the features that I most require may, indeed, be present in Audition for Mac after all.

                           

                          That said, I'm such a loyal Twisted Wave user, it's highly unlikely I'll stop using TW for my everyday voiceover recording/editing/processing.  The developer was very responsive to a number of suggestions I made to improve the product, and he rapidly incorporated just about every single one.  It was like having my own personal computer programmer.  So I'll keep using TW.  When I first found TW, I was looking for something that would allow me to work on VO the same way I worked in Sound Forge.  But none of the waveform editors for Mac really behaved like Sound Forge.  They did the same things, but the commands to make them happen were very counter-intuitive or required more mouse clicks or menu commands.  They were all just clunky and slow to work with.  When you do this stuff for a living every day, SPEED is where it's at, man.  Anything that slows me down is outa here.  I contacted the TW developer and told him he had a nice product for the hobbyist or podcaster, but that it needed some tweaks to be a tool that a professional could really consider using.  So I made a few recommendations, and within 24 hours, he sent me a link to a beta that had all my suggestions incorporated.  Emboldened, I came with a few more suggestions, and -- voila! -- within 24 hours, he had a new beta with all my suggestions operational.  We kept going back and forth like this for a few weeks until the application virtually replicated the work flow I was used to in Sound Forge, so I was thrilled.  Since that time, some fellow voiceover talents and I have recommended the app to some other industry users, and now Twisted Wave -- the little app that could -- is now in use by some of the biggest houses in Hollywood.  Not for heavy lifting use, of course.  (They all use Pro Tools for the big stuff.)  But, for example, Entertainment Tonight now uses Twisted Wave in their portable rigs.  That's just one example.

                           

                          Twisted Wave is far more uncluttered than Audition, although I will grant you it is not as feature-rich as Audition.  TW is, after all, just a waveform editor, not a multi-track production tool.  It's designed to handle simple tasks, but it has enough depth to it to do the things a professional needs to do with a waveform editor.  Best of all, it does them efficiently, without a lot of stuff getting in your way.

                           

                          I like TW's ability to customize keyboard shortcuts and mouse gestures.  So I'm able to make it work EXACTLY the way I'm used to working, and with no wasted keystrokes or mouse clicks.  Speed is where it's at.

                           

                          Speaking of speed, I also like the fact that Twisted Wave opens right up.  Nothing to load.  You click the icon in the doc, and within no more than about 3 or 4 seconds, tops, it's up and running.

                           

                          TW's time compression/expansion is better than Audition's (everybody's is better -- i.e., smoother, more natural sounding on dry voice -- than Audition, frankly).  I like the silence stripping option (I use it on every one of my voice tracks as a starting point before processing).

                           

                          I used to use Audition from the time it was Cool Edit Pro 1.2, right up until Audition 3.0 was released, and I taught it at a broadcasting school.  I know the program inside-out.  But I also used Pro Tools, and came to appreciate why it's considered the industry standard.  So when I switched from Windows to Mac, I said "bye, bye" to Audition, and never missed a beat using Twisted Wave for simple dry voice recording/editing and Pro Tools for everything else that was more complex.

                           

                          I liked Adobe Audition.  I kinda think they're a little late to the game in coming with a Mac version after all these years.  But I welcome it.  I always like having alternate tools.  I also have Apple Logic Pro, and on occasion, it comes in handy.  I'm sure Audition will seem like the right choice for certain things as well.

                          • 10. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                            Scott Carver Level 1

                            Great feedback, thanks -

                             

                            Your commitment to TW sounds quite justified, but I'll respond to a few points - not just for you, but for anyone else reading through this post as well.

                             

                            - Audition's keyboard shortcuts are customizable from the Edit->Keyboard Shortcuts menu - all menu commands, common actions, as well as custom favorites should appear there (if there's something missing, let us know)


                            - While we don't support any explicit mouse gestures, we should be very trackpad/might mouse aware. But - if anyone, as a mac user especially, notices a place where we're not working as expected with, for example, a trackpad, let us know. (Unfortunately, the new Snow Leopard gestures - pinch zoom etc - are out of our reach at the moment).

                             

                            - Are you mainly compressing / expanding voiceover audio? I'm familiar with Twisted Wave's time compression (DIRAC - it's quite good), and I've done some side-by-side comparisons with ours (based on Izotope technology). In general, I've found them pretty neck-in-neck, so I'd love to hear a sample file from your own work, with the settings that you use from TW and Audition's time strech, and how you're finding the quality different. (No attachments on this board unfortunately, but you can email to audbugs@adobe.com, attn Scott)

                             

                            - Silence stripping - it's worth taking a look at our Diagnostics Panel, especially the Find Audio and Find Silence options, which can be used to isolate regions of audio or silence, and mark or delete them. This is a beefed-up equivalent to Au3's Detect Silence.

                             

                            Finally - we've been focusing pretty hard on performance, so if there are things that we do that are significantly slower that your favorite Mac audio app, or things that just feel too slow let us know and we can look into it.

                             

                            Scott C

                            • 11. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                              Charles VW Adobe Employee

                              Thanks for the feedback RandB,

                              RandB wrote:

                               

                              Twisted Wave is far more uncluttered than Audition, although I will grant you it is not as feature-rich as Audition.

                               

                              You can always unclutter the UI by closing panels you don't need.  Is there a certain area in the application that you feel is particularly cluttered?

                               

                              RandB wrote:

                               

                              I like TW's ability to customize keyboard shortcuts

                               

                              If you press [ Alt/Option ] + [ K ] to bring up the Keyboard Shortcuts dialog, what would you like to see different there?

                               

                              RandB wrote:

                               

                              Speaking of speed, I also like the fact that Twisted Wave opens right up.  Nothing to load.  You click the icon in the doc, and within no more than about 3 or 4 seconds, tops, it's up and running.

                               

                              How long does it take for you to launch Audition?  I can show you how to prevent certain things from loading if you don't want to use them (e.g. QuickTime support or OMF support).

                               

                              RandB wrote:

                               

                              TW's time compression/expansion is better than Audition's (everybody's is better -- i.e., smoother, more natural sounding on dry voice -- than Audition, frankly).

                               

                              We have two resampling engines, one is our native one that we've had in Audition for many years.  We also have iZotope's Radius resampling engine that is in many other applications, so that should sound exactly the same as those other apps that use it.

                               

                              RandB wrote:

                               

                              I like the silence stripping option (I use it on every one of my voice tracks as a starting point before processing).

                               

                              Have you tried the Effects > Diagnostics > Delete Silence (process)?

                               

                              Again, thanks for the feedback.

                              • 12. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                                RandB Level 1

                                Responding to both Scott and Charles...

                                 

                                You guys raise several interesting points.  Please know it's not my intention to come off seeming overly critical.  Not at all. I've long believed Audition is a fine product.  I just moved away from it when I went Mac a few years ago.  Obviously, I was happy to see that Adobe was coming with a Mac version (finally).  Otherwise I wouldn't be here now, engaging you guys in this discussion.  I must admit, I'm impressed that you're this responsive.  But that is, after all, what a beta process is all about.  Kudos.

                                 

                                You raised a lot of points, and I don't have time to go through each one now.  Suffice it to say that it sounds like you have a solution for most every objection I raised (they weren't really "objections," per se, but you know what I mean).  I will definitely look into each one when time permits.

                                 

                                Concerning the silence stripping, since I haven't tested it yet, I can't comment on it.  But just so you know, I don't use it to "remove" silence (as in splice it out, removing the "gaps").  No, that's not the purpose.  I use it like a gate.  My room is perfectly silent.  There's some ambient noise from air conditioning, outdoor noises that might seep through the cracks in windows, computer and hard drive fans in the next room, etc.  It's low level noise, but it's noise nonetheless.  And while I do use a gate (FX) in my processing chain, I start by stripping out the silence.  In other words, I'm able to tap one key (I've customized it to S for Silence), which SELECTS all the areas where the audio is below a certain threshold level.  Then, because I've programmed the keyboard shortcut to "apply silence," I tap the 0 (zero) key on the numpad, and it applies silence to all these slivers of the file.  Now, of course, if that were the only way I was treating the "silent" portions of the file, it would be pretty abrupt.  But then in my processing chain, I also have a gate which has a nice knee setting so it's virtually undetectable that a gate has been used.  It's just either me talking, or it's silence.  Perfect, clean, dead silence.  And it starts with that silence stripping trick.

                                 

                                FYI.

                                 

                                Oh yeah, one other thing I do want to respond to specifically, pertains to time stretching/compressing.  In the past, I found that the destructive effect in the Effects menu of Audition introduced a lot of digital artifacts.  But the time stretching/compressing that occurs when adjusting the region boundaries in the multi-track view (which was introduced in either Audition 1.5 or 2.0, I don't recall) was much, much cleaner, less discernible.


                                Twisted Wave's time stretching/compressing is very good, although I must admit, I futzed with the settings some time back and never could get them back to where the default was for dry voice.  I haven't been satisfied with it since.  Fortunately, I don't have to use it much.


                                But the time compression plug-in found in Pro Tools IS THE ABSOLUTE NUTS.  Smooth as a baby's butt.

                                 

                                I always found that any change above about 6 percent in Audition's time adjustment was just very noticeable, and really unusable.  But you can squeeze or stretch well beyond 6 percent in the Pro Tools Time Compression plug without ever introducing even a hint of digital artifacts.  I don't know how they do it, but they do it.

                                 

                                I'll take a closer look at the rest of this stuff later.  Gotta run out the door now.


                                Thanks, guys, for the rapid replies!

                                • 13. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                                  Scott Carver Level 1

                                  On silencing silence... (John Cage might have something to say about that),

                                  that sounds like an awesome workflow. While we can't do quite that, it's very easy to detect silence (via the Delete Silence option in the Diagnostics Panel - you don't actually have to do any deleting), and then jump through the list of silent sections and apply something to each one. Can't do it to all at once, but you can do it to each indivudually, with a similar keyboard workflow. Expanding the capabilities of the detection tools in the Diagnostics Panel (to do things  like TW's silence stuff) is definitely something we're interested in for the future.

                                   

                                  You might re-investigate our time compression. We added Izotope's engine in 2.0 I believe, which is substantially better for most things than the old audition stretch. Give it a shot on some voice audio, with the Solo Instrument/Voice and Preserve Speech turned on - if the last time you used it was 1.5, it'll be better than you remember...

                                   

                                  Hah, I feel like a used car salesman - not really the intention, just hoping to expose some of these things to people searching or watching the board.

                                   

                                  Scott C

                                  • 14. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                                    RandB Level 1

                                    Scott:  It's cool.  You're an Audition evangelist.  I get it.  :-)  I wouldn't expect you to NOT be enthusiastic about the beta.

                                     

                                    Honestly, I'd loved to have been among the beta testers who had this software months ago.

                                     

                                    I'm sure that when the paid version finally becomes available, I'll probably buy it.

                                     

                                    I still have Audition 3.0, although I only use my Windows computer for doing bookkeeping.  So it's not even installed on that machine.

                                     

                                    I wonder if when the Audition for Mac version is finally released, if my having Audition 3.0 will qualify me for an upgrade price.  (And I'll have to cross-grade to Mac, as I did with the CS suite a couple years ago).

                                    • 15. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                                      Charles VW Adobe Employee

                                      des5080 wrote:

                                       

                                      As far as plugin scanning goes - generally I had good results with my plugin collection. The only ones that gave problems were all the T-racks plugins (both au and vst), and a couple of Flux plugins.

                                       

                                      Do you happen to recall which Flux plug-ins?

                                      • 16. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                                        RandB Level 1

                                        For whatever it's worth, I have Waves Diamond bundle, as well as a number of other plug-ins (both Waves and others), including Speakerphone, iZotope Vinyl and others, and when I did the scan in Audition, it found them all, no glitches.

                                        • 17. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                                          Matt_Stegner Adobe Employee

                                          That is good to hear.

                                          -MattS

                                          • 18. Re: Plugin compatibility reports
                                            des5080 Level 1

                                            > Do you happen to recall which Flux plug-ins?

                                             

                                            Yep - Epure II and Syrah - the rest validate ok, as far as I can see, although I've yet to process in anger...