14 Replies Latest reply: Mar 24, 2011 8:41 AM by deforestm RSS

    Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile

    talltim1 Community Member

      Hi all,

       

      If in the assign colour profiles menu of indesign I had the same setting for all my indesign files, as shown in screenshot attached.

       

      Picture 18.png

       

      And then when a PDF is created from an Indesign file using a different CMYK profile, will the original indesign setting have any impact on the PDF created? Will the PDF ignore the settings of the Indesign document?

       

      Regards, Tim

        • 1. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
          rob day CommunityMVP

          If you choose a destination profile that is different than the doc's assigned profile and choose Convert to Destination for Color Conversion, all of the native ID objects will get converted from the assigned CMYK space to the new destination—you'll get new CMYK numbers.

           

          Placed objects also get converted if they have an embedded profile that conflicts with the destination. If a placed object has no profile or you've told ID to ignore incoming profiles via Color Setting's CM Policies, it gets assigned your document's profile and would also get converted if the destination conflicts with the assigned profile. If the ID doc has no assigned profile the Color Setting's Working space is used.

          • 2. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
            talltim1 Community Member

            Thanks Rob,

             

            So in my scenario what would you think are the best colour settings for my indesign documents.

             

            Many templates that get populated with RGB images. These populated templates are then exported to PDFs and can be used on different presses and different paper types etc. Depending on where the PDF is going a colour profile is applied at the PDF creation stage (convert to destination for colour conversion). ie Snap2007 for a USA newspaper.

             

            The system is automated. There is no manual intervention at all during this process. So there is no applying different profiles to indesign files or photoshop images based on specific job. The only colour change in the process is when the final PDF is rendered to go to the printers.

             

            So, for my master indesign files what is the best colour set up?

             

            Thanks for taking the time Rob.

             

            Regards, Tim

            • 4. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
              rob day CommunityMVP

               

               

              Many templates that get populated with RGB images. .... The only colour change in the process is when the final PDF is rendered to go to the printers.

               

              So, for my master indesign files what is the best colour set up?

               

               

              The PDF/X presets are designed for your scenario.

               

              I doesn't make much sense to use any CMYK color because you never know what the destination will be and CMYK colors will almost always get reconverted. The only problem RGB presents is gamut, so when you edit, a soft proof setup with a CMYK space would be advisable. The ideal would be to establish one RGB editing space (Adobe RGB?) and assign it to all your RGB objects and ID files.

               

              It sounds like you are expected to finalize color management at PDF creation, if that's the case PDF/X-1a forces all RGB color into one destination CMYK space and flattens transparency. When you automate the PDF creation you would need to be able to set the destination in the Output panel depending on the where the file is going.

               

              The alternative is PDF/X-4 where there are no color conversions but every object gets a color profile. In that case the color conversions would happen at output, i.e. the PDF going to a newspaper gets converted to the newspaper's profile (SNAP?) at output. All the vendors would have to be on board for that to happen, which might not be the case.

              • 5. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
                talltim1 Community Member

                Hi Rob, thanks again.

                 

                We do use the PDFX/1-A preset when exporting to PDF and our Indesign Server selects the correct icc profile in the output intent for the PDF based on what choices the customer has made on our website.

                 

                I'm still not 100% sure on what settings should be selected in the colour settings/assign profiles panels in the indesign edit menu for our indesign files. Our files do use CMYK colour swatches and have various RGB images used dependig on what picture the customer wants to use with the template.

                 

                Would you have any recommendations... or better still screenshots of what they should be? Should we have the Discard option selected in assign "profile"... should we have Emulate CMS 2.0 off in "colour settings"... etc?

                 

                Also, when creating the PDF should it be Convert to Destination or Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers)?

                 

                Thanks again Rob,

                 

                Tim

                • 6. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
                  rob day CommunityMVP

                  If there's a significant difference in destinations you probably don't want to preserve numbers because you'll have problems when you go from something like sheetfed coated to newsprint where the appearance of a CMYK mix can change and the total ink requirements are different. But, when you don't preserve numbers you'll run into a problem with black text converting to a CMYK mix, so you could preserve numbers and limit the use of CMYK to black and other colors you want to preserve no matter what (100% cyan?). Sometimes I convert CMYK swatches to Lab via a script when the file is going to multiple destinations—the lab swatches get converted and I can protect black and selected swatches.

                   

                  In your case you would want to avoid CMYK images, limit CMYK swatches, and preserve both CMYK and RGB profiles. Something like this:

                   

                  http://www.zenodesign.com/scripts/colorset.png

                   

                  On PDF export you can preserve numbers, but keep in mind a color like 65|65|0|0 will look pretty different on newsprint and sheetfed coated.

                  • 7. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
                    talltim1 Community Member

                    Hmmm, I see. So it would of been better if everything was RGB on the indd files, including the swatches, and then the only time a CMYK conversion was used was in the last step to create the PDF? I suppose using the settings in this shot below won't help?

                     

                    Picture 5.png

                     

                    If that doesn't do the trick, I wonder is there a profile that can be used on the indesign files that is fairly friendly to convert to any other CMYK profile? A kind of middle man colour profile?

                     

                    Would I need some settings in here (screenshot below)

                     

                     

                     

                    Picture 7.png

                     

                    Regards, Tim

                    • 8. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
                      rob day CommunityMVP

                      You definitely don't want to emulate a 10 year old version of ID.

                       

                      If that doesn't do the trick, I wonder is there a profile that can be used on the indesign files that is fairly friendly to convert to any other CMYK profile? A kind of middle man colour profile?

                       

                      The document CMYK profile will only be used to convert CMYK objects to the CMYK destination you choose at export, or to display a CMYK color as it would appear on the profiled device—the CoatedFogra profile tries to display how 50% cyan will print under Fogra press conditions. If you don't have any CMYK images or objects, the CMYK profile doesn't come into play—the conversions would be directly from your assigned RGB profile to your PDF destination CMYK profile. So, if all of your images and color were RGB or Lab, the assigned CMYK profile would only be used to display Black and its tints.

                      • 9. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
                        P Spier CommunityMVP

                        I don't want to step on Rob'sresponse here, but it occurs to me that if you have a way of ASSIGNING the target workspace to the document before exporting your native blacks (and any other native elements) can be preserved while a conversion to profile without preserve numbers will keep any imported objects with embedded profiles from having any unnecessary color shifts.

                         

                        Could you script that in as part of the setup?

                        • 10. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
                          rob day CommunityMVP

                          Peter, I think assigning the CMYK destination profile to an ID doc would produce the same result as exporting with preserve numbers as the destination—in either case that 50|50|0|0 CMYK purple’s numbers will output unchanged. If the destinations are similar (SWOP Coated vs. FOGRA Coated?) that's not a problem — the color's appearance won't change in any significant way. But if the destinations were SWOP an SNAP there might be a significant appearance change and you would want to let the conversion happen.

                           

                          A SWOP>Lab>SNAP conversion using the default Color Setting Conversion Options converts 50|50|0|0 to 45|45|2|0, which makes sense given the extra dot gain you would likely get on newsprint.

                          • 11. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
                            P Spier CommunityMVP

                            I always have trouble with remembering what happens with imported objects and the two export options when there is a profile mismatch. I understand that there's no difference for native objects between exporting with preserve numbers and assigning the destination  and choosing to convert without preserving, but what happens to placed images with a third embedded profile?

                             

                            You're saying that even with preserve numbers selected if the art has a conflicting embedded profile that will be haonored and the numbers onthe PDF will change, so the preservation of numbers appies only to native and untagged objects? Did I get that right? If so, ignore what I said earlier. The only advantage would be that screen display would be more accurate.

                            • 12. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
                              rob day CommunityMVP

                              When I export to PDF/X1-a, ...Preserve Numbers in the Output tab only protects the numbers of native CMYK objects.

                               

                              With ...Preserve, if my doc assignment is US SWOP and I export to a conflicting CMYK destination, native 50% black is not converted. But if I place a PSD filled with 50% K it will convert to a different CMYK mix if its embedded profile conflicts with the destination whether ...Preserve is selected or not.

                               

                              The OP is placing RGB so with PDF/X1-a, RGB or Lab color is always converted to the destination because -1a only allows CMYK.

                               

                              If you want to protect placed CMYK, I think you have to do that by choosing Preserve Numbers(Ignore Linked Profiles) as your CMYK Policy in Color Settings when you make your document.

                               

                              Here's the file I used to test the export numbers:

                               

                              http://www.zenodesign.com/scripts/PreserveNumbers.zip

                              • 13. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
                                P Spier CommunityMVP

                                OK, that makes sense.

                                 

                                Thanks.

                                • 14. Re: Assignment of colour profiles in indesign vs PDF colour profile
                                  deforestm Community Member

                                  This is probably simple... but I'm struggling with getting my master pages to print to a pdf the color that I assigned.  All of my pages are coming out as white, instead of a black background.  What settings should I be looking at.

                                   

                                  Thanks,

                                  D