1 2 Previous Next 45 Replies Latest reply on Dec 18, 2010 1:35 PM by Noel Carboni

    Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?

    RASouthworth Level 3

      More specifically, I alternate between sRGB for saving proofs/email/web images directly out of ACR, and ProPhoto for opening in Photoshop.  If nothing else where are the config files stored, perhaps I could write a Windows script to switch between sets.

       

      Richard Southworth

        • 1. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
          RASouthworth Level 3

          Eric, anybody?

           

          Forgot to specify I'm using CS5/ACR6.3 on Windows 7 64 bit.

           

          Richard Southworth

          • 2. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
            Noel Carboni Level 7

            Let me start with a disclaimer:  This doesn't answer your question directly; not even close.  But it describes one way to help keep things straight.

             

            I keep Camera Raw set to deliver ProPhoto RGB results, I keep my Photoshop working space preference set to sRGB, and I have set the checkbox to warn me on color space mismatch.

             

            I also have an action tied to a function key that does a ProPhoto RGB to sRGB conversion.

             

            When I open a raw file into Photoshop, I see the color space warning, and that reminds me to press the "convert to sRGB" key as the very next thing when I want to save the result as an sRGB image.  Then of course I save the file out of Photoshop.

             

            I realize this isn't nearly as direct as saving sRGB imagery straight out of Camera Raw, and it does involve starting the behemoth that is Photoshop.

             

            I wonder if one were to make a droplet out of the action and drop raw files on it...  Hmmm...

             

            -Noel

            • 3. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
              RASouthworth Level 3

              I'm fond of cranking images thru ACR only - if I forget to change back from a ProPhoto session I create very ugly jpegs with an embedded ProPhoto profile.

               

              I believe I can solve the problem if somebody in the know will just tell me where the config information is stored.  And I have looked for it, obviously with no success.

               

              Richard Southworth

              • 4. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                NormanPCN

                A non sticky option would be nice for some occasions. For example, on those times I shoot jpeg, I do at times do a crop, black level vibrance tweak to the jpeg with ACR. My normal workflow is set to 16-bit ProPhoto. It is kinda lame to have the 8-bit sRGB jpeg open up as 16-bit ProPhoto. If anything an option to not increase the bit depth and/or size of the RGB color space of the source file would be nice. This would apply to jpeg and tiff files since they are already to to a depth and color space.

                 

                -Norman

                • 5. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                  RASouthworth Level 3

                  Went in and did a timestamp search of my entire hard drive, found all the files that had been modified when I did nothing but invoke ACR from Bridge, flip the colorspace, Done, and out.  Apparently, and I'm not at all sure, the program is creating color profiles on the fly, modifying them as a function of the chosen colorspace.

                   

                  I tried getting "clever", ACR from Bridge (32 bit world) set to sRGB and ACR from Photoshop (64 bit) set to ProPhoto, hoping the programs would keep the choices separate.  No such luck, no matter where the workflow options are modifed they stick for all programs.

                   

                  IMO this is an example of poor programming, there should be some reasonable way of saving and switching the workflow options, other than mouse clicking on a link (there's not even a button) and going thru several steps to switch.  Come on Adobe, you can do better than this, it's an inferior UI as it is now implemented.

                   

                  Richard Southworth

                  • 6. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                    Yammer Level 4

                    I think the preferences are saved here:

                    HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software\Adobe\Camera Raw\6.0

                    • 7. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                      MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                      There is no shortcut at present.


                      • 8. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                        RASouthworth Level 3

                        Yammer P,

                         

                        I had looked in the registry, but obviously not thoroughly.  I created a couple of .reg files, one each for sRGB and ProPhoto, and sure enough I can toggle back and forth.  So far I've only tried it before invoking Bridge, not sure if there is possible harm toggling while Bridge is running, more experimentation required.  ANY INPUT FROM ADOBE AS TO POSSIBLE PROBLEMS?  Unfortunately it's one large binary config file, can't break out only the workflow options.  I exported the entire 6.0 registry entry, including the time stamp, to make sure of consistency.

                         

                        And before somebody chimes in, I realize after many years experience one should dink with the registry only if experienced in Windows (and knows how to recover if trouble).  It's not as scary as is sometimes described in the literature.

                         

                        Thanks,

                         

                        Richard Southworth

                         

                        Added by edit - tried it while Bridge was running, seems to work fine.  I only invoke the .reg file while Camera Raw is not running, I assume CR picks up the settings when instantiated.  I'm on Windows 7, so whenever I execute a .reg file I receive the dramatic warning I'm changing the system, for anyone who might try this.  Now to generate more combinations with different sharpening settings, etc.  Adobe, you could make this a lot simpler.

                        • 9. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                          Yammer Level 4

                          Sorry, I didn't realise at the time that it was so large, as it only shows the first few bytes in the list. God knows what's in the rest of it. I'd be tempted to leave well alone, or at least do a binary comparison after a lot of Bridge/ACR usage. You might be making a rod for your own back.

                          • 10. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                            RASouthworth Level 3

                            Yes, I well understand the risks, that's why I would like Adobe to provide some input.  If it's relatively static and only changes when a user parameter is modified I can probably get away with multiple .reg files.  If CR is keeping track of other stuff within the same config entry than I might have problems.  In any event if I change anything else in CR I will have to regen the .reg files.

                             

                            Richard Southworth

                            • 11. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                              Andrew_Hart Level 2

                              Noel,

                               

                              I'm curious, nay, fascinated. Why do you export from CR as ProPhoto and then use your action to convert to sRGB? Wouldn't it be simpler just to export straight to sRGB? Doesn't your workflow risk clipping colours? Any why do you have your workspace in Ps set to sRGB?

                              • 12. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                RASouthworth Level 3

                                No, if I'm working solely from CR I'm in sRGB, save straight out to jpegs, probably accounts for 95% of my images.  If I want to process in Photoshop then I render to ProPhoto in CR.

                                 

                                Richard Southworth

                                • 13. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                  Yammer Level 4

                                  This should probably go in a different thread, but I'm still not sure what the advantages of working in ProPhoto are, especially if you usually end up printing, viewing on wide-gamut monitors, or sRGB. It's easier to process in ProPhoto, but that usually means losing something in post-processing, so I generally work in AdobeRGB these days.

                                  • 14. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                    RASouthworth Level 3

                                    I find that many of my images will exhibit channel clipping in ACR set to sRGB and to a lesser extent Adobe1998, and will exhibit little or no clipping in ProPhoto.  I would just as soon bring them into Photoshop unclipped, and after edits face whatever adjustments are needed for satisfactory printing.  I use ProfileMaker 5 printer profiles, set to Perceptual intent, which will generally do a good job of re-mapping out of gamut colors, certainly much better than merely clipping them.

                                     

                                    As long as one works in 16 bits I see no downside to using ProPhoto when going to Photoshop, with the potential of the aforementioned advantages.

                                     

                                    Richard Southworth

                                    • 15. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                      Noel Carboni Level 7
                                      function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                      RASouthworth-PmmtIy wrote:


                                      I find that many of my images will exhibit channel clipping in ACR set to sRGB and to a lesser extent Adobe1998, and will exhibit little or no clipping in ProPhoto.  I would just as soon bring them into Photoshop unclipped

                                       

                                      Exactly why I created an action that "bends" the gamut near the edges so as to fit all of the ProPhoto color space into the sRGB color space, with very little visual change to the image.  I convert to ProPhoto, and since I want to work in sRGB I have Photoshop remind me that the conversion isn't in my default color space.  I then press my F14 key and voila, an unclipped conversion into sRGB color space.

                                       

                                      The action is here if you'd like to experiment with it: 

                                       

                                      http://Noel.ProDigitalSoftware.com/temp/ColorSpaceAction.zip

                                       

                                       

                                      It is, in my opinion, a failing of the Camera Raw design that there should be channel clipping in conversion to any color space (and thus the need for such an action) in the very same converter that offers things like a "Recovery" slider.

                                       

                                      -Noel

                                      • 16. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                        RASouthworth Level 3

                                        I'm a color management professional, with reasonably complete knowledge of colorimetry, icc profiles, and the associated equipment/software.  In no way do I consider it a failing for ACR to not arbitraily compress a relatively large color gamut (that from the camera) into a colorspace (sRGB) designed as the average response of crt monitors.  IMO the "best" workflow from capture to print preserves as much of the gamut as possible (i.e., render into ProPhoto) until the output stage - if for print then the better profiling software does an admirable job of gamut compression, invioked from within Photoshop.  If the output is web/email, then ACR provides enough tools (recovery slider, etc.) to produce a reasonable rendering in sRGB.

                                         

                                        I placed "best" in quotation marks because I have learned that in addition to the science of color management there is still a lot of art involved, and if you have a process that produces your desired results, using an action to modify color gamuts, more power to you.  However, please don't represent it as other than your preferred method, and please don't criticize Adobe for sticking to the conventional approach, which is generally accepted as the correct color management process.

                                         

                                        Richard Southworth

                                        • 17. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                          Yammer Level 4

                                          For a few years, I used to use ProPhotoRGB in ACR, and do a conversion at the final stage. However, a few things persuaded me to change this in recent months.

                                           

                                          * A few photos of natural objects like plants and flowers did not convert well, and I found it better to constrain the raw development stage with the target colour space, and visually work within those limits.

                                           

                                          * Someone told me (maybe incorrectly) that it better to use a  smaller gamut colour space for accuracy, as long as it was big enough  for the image.

                                           

                                          * Someone else told me (maybe incorrectly) that conversion from ProPhoto to another workspace introduced significant quantisation error.

                                           

                                          * I submit a lot of photos as stock, and they ask for AdobeRGB, so I thought I might aw well stick there.

                                           

                                          Now, if someone can tell me that this is all wrong, then I'm happy to listen and learn, as I admit I'm not an expert on colour management!

                                          • 18. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                            RASouthworth Level 3

                                            The accuracy and quantization concerns are valid for 8 bit channels, but as far as I know are not relevant for 16 bit.  I see no problem in sticking with Adobe1998, there won't be much color gamut loss and it apparently fits your workflow, so again more power to you.  I will say that I have compared the gamut of my Epson 3880 printer with Adobe1998, and there is some slight "protrusion" of the printer color gamut outside of Adobe1998, so from a theoretical point of view I could be "throwing away" colors by rendering to Adobe1998 instead of ProPhoto.  It's probably of not much practical consequence, but since I have not encountered any problems working with ProPhoto I'll stick with it.

                                             

                                            One of my clients is a portrait photographer, and we have him set up in a raw 16 bit sRGB workflow start to finish.  Portraits don't generally push color gamut boundaries, and it's more convenient (and more foolproof) to not have to convert from one workspace to the other for client proofing.  However I doubt you would find many landscape photographers that worked solely within sRGB.  So there's more than one right way to set up a workflow, but it is helpful to know the pros and cons of each.

                                             

                                            Richard Southworth

                                            • 19. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                              NormanPCN Level 1

                                              Yes a smaller color space will have more accuracy at a given bit level since its coordinate range is smaller for the same number of levels. For 8-bit this can matter but for 16-bit I have not read of such concerns. Wide gamut spaces like ProPhoto should always be 16-bit.

                                               

                                              One thing about errors in conversion from large to small. Small is typically 8-bit sRGB for jpegs. Say we are currently in 16-bit ProPhoto. I think the proper workflow here is to convert to the smaller color space first and then convert to 8-bit. Cramming ProPhoto into a small 8-bit space first can increase the possibility of errors I think. At least that seems logical. I only mention this because Image processor and 1-2-3 Process both convert to 8-bit first and then to sRGB. I know I use these tools for creating jpegs and probably others. I edited the scripts to change the order.

                                               

                                              -Norman

                                              • 20. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                Yammer P wrote:

                                                 

                                                * Someone told me (maybe incorrectly) that it better to use a  smaller gamut colour space for accuracy, as long as it was big enough  for the image.

                                                 

                                                Better why? As long as you are in 16 bit/channel the old wive's tale of "using a more efficient color space" is simply that...myth. Show me ANY proof that using a larger color space with 16 bit is in ANY way less optimal that a larger color space and I'll eat my hat. This advice is bogus...

                                                 

                                                Yammer P wrote:

                                                 

                                                * Someone else told me (maybe incorrectly) that conversion from ProPhoto to another workspace introduced significant quantisation error.

                                                 

                                                "quantisation error", really? When using 16 bit/channel?

                                                 

                                                I don't think so...no more quantization error than from ANY image processing routine. You do a curves adjustment and you'll get a quantization error. Every algorithm in Photoshop will introduce a quantization error. But if you start with good data and work in 16 bit the result of processing sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB will all have roughly the same end result with regards to processing.

                                                 

                                                Look, use whatever color space you want, but it would be useful to choose your color space based on real facts, not myths.

                                                 

                                                The fact is, Pro Photo RGB is the ONLY color space in Camera Raw that can contain ALL the colors your camera can capture–the other color spaces clip. If you are outputting to high end inkjet printers, Pro Photo RGB is the ONLY color space that can contain ALL the colors your camera can capture and your printer can print. If you are doing consumable photography with no long term use and the intent is to push stuff through I suppose there's no reason to worry too much about long term preservation but know that as new cameras, computer displays and printers come out, I would MUCH prefer knowing that my images contain as large a gamut of color as possible.

                                                • 21. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 7
                                                  function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                  RASouthworth wrote:


                                                  I'm a color management professional, with reasonably complete knowledge of colorimetry, icc profiles, and the associated equipment/software.  In no way do I consider it a failing for ACR to not arbitraily compress a relatively large color gamut (that from the camera) into a colorspace (sRGB) designed as the average response of crt monitors.


                                                  I respect that.  I am also quite up on color management as I create software with color management capability.  But I really don't want to get into theory here.  I'm talking philosophy and practicality - not the basics of color management...

                                                   

                                                  A "given" in this equation is that there are people who WANT to work in sRGB or Adobe RGB, for various reasons.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Note that Adobe sets the default working space to sRGB.  They also set the default ACR conversion output to Adobe RGB.  Just the difference in these two confuses 98% of Photoshop users (another debate entirely), but we note that neither of these is ProPhoto RGB.

                                                   

                                                  Camera Raw already provides the Recovery slider to "roll off" the luminance levels in order to provide a luminance "recovery" capability.  Why not provide color gamut "recovery" also when converting into a limited color space?  The Camera Raw controls CAN, in fact, be tweaked so as to limit or eliminate color channel clipping, but usually they have to be pushed so far as to essentially destroy the usability of the rest of the image.  Hence the need for an action to do it more intelligently.

                                                   

                                                  In my view the Camera Raw plug-in is intented to provide the best possible INPUT to the photo editor.  Many people see it more as an end-all, but it's clearly still providing input to Photoshop as its primary function.

                                                   

                                                  I mentioned Recovery above...  Consider also that tools like "Brightness & Contrast" in Photoshop have been altered so that the "legacy" method is no longer the default, and now the control rolls off the effects at the edges of the luminance range with the clear intention to prevent data loss.

                                                   

                                                  Clipping of color channel data from raw images because someone at some conversion stage says the colors are out of the sRGB gamut is short-sighted, philosophically, in light of the other movement toward kinder, gentler processing of pixels.

                                                   

                                                  The intent with the implementation should not be to steadfastly hold on to some obscure color theory, but rather to help users make good images.  I say that this starts with non-clipped channels.

                                                   

                                                  Last I looked (and I admit it's been a while) Canon's conversion programs made better looking results of what Camera Raw would clip.

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                    RASouthworth Level 3

                                                    I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.  I don't see the logic in arguing on the one hand its primary purpose is to deliver data to Photoshop and on the other hand it should first massage the data in some arbitrary manner.  It does provide warning as to the effects of rendering to sRGB, and it provides the ability to ameliorate the clipping by choosing another colorspace.  In effect you want to create yet another rendering space, sRGBX, and make it the default so users won't fall into the "trap" of clipping their colors with the existing default sRGB colorspace.

                                                     

                                                    Richard Southworth

                                                    • 23. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                      NormanPCN Level 1

                                                      One can argue what the true meaning of defaults are. Photoshop defaults to preserve the source color space without warning or conversion. In other words the working space is whatever you give it. ACR defaults to 8-bit so AdobeRGB is probably the largest sensible color space for 8-bit output.

                                                       

                                                      -Norman

                                                      • 24. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                        Noel Carboni Level 7
                                                        function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                        RASouthworth wrote:


                                                        I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. 

                                                         

                                                        I'm okay with that, I've said my piece.  Maybe since we've discussed it the ACR team will put some additional thought into this "big picture" issue.  I hear ICC v4 profile profile support may appear in the future, and that offers some promise in this matter.

                                                         

                                                        -Noel

                                                        • 25. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                          Yammer Level 4

                                                          Jeff Schewe wrote:

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          As long as you are in 16 bit/channel the old wive's tale of "using a more efficient color space" is simply that...myth. Show me ANY proof that using a larger color space with 16 bit is in ANY way less optimal that a larger color space and I'll eat my hat. This advice is bogus...

                                                          I had to chuckle. I could just imagine Monty Python's housewives discussing colour management theory and existentialism.

                                                           

                                                          Okay, Jeff, it's good to know that I can stop worrying about the size of the gaps between colours! I'll assume that they're small enough, in any colour space (at 16 bit).

                                                           

                                                          Jeff Schewe wrote:

                                                           

                                                          Yammer P wrote:

                                                           

                                                          * Someone else told me (maybe incorrectly) that conversion from ProPhoto to another workspace introduced significant quantisation error.

                                                           

                                                          "quantisation error", really? When using 16 bit/channel?

                                                           

                                                          I don't think so...no more quantization error than from ANY image processing routine. You do a curves adjustment and you'll get a quantization error. Every algorithm in Photoshop will introduce a quantization error. But if you start with good data and work in 16 bit the result of processing sRGB, Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB will all have roughly the same end result with regards to processing.

                                                          Maybe "quantisation" is the wrong word. I meant errors in colour as well as tone, from converting RGB values from one colour space to another. The comment was something along the lines of software introducing inaccuracies by having to interpolate RGB values in the colour space. Again, a significant impact is hard to prove, and was just something I remember being told, and, as a computer guy, I am well aware of the effects of multiple calculations on the accuracy of data, so this seemed to be reasonable advice.

                                                           

                                                          I'll assume that, if the resolution is high enough, any errors will be insignificant, although I still don't understand the implications of various bit-depths in the system and their effect on subsequent calcuations. I mean, my raw data is 14-bit; is this then processed with 16 bit accuracy (i.e. 2 null bits added onto the original data)? And I remember reading that Photoshop actually works in 15-bits, although I never checked the accuracy of this claim. But I digress...

                                                           

                                                          Jeff Schewe wrote:


                                                          Look, use whatever color space you want, but it would be useful to choose your color space based on real facts, not myths.

                                                           

                                                          The fact is, Pro Photo RGB is the ONLY color space in Camera Raw that can contain ALL the colors your camera can capture–the other color spaces clip. If you are outputting to high end inkjet printers, Pro Photo RGB is the ONLY color space that can contain ALL the colors your camera can capture and your printer can print. If you are doing consumable photography with no long term use and the intent is to push stuff through I suppose there's no reason to worry too much about long term preservation but know that as new cameras, computer displays and printers come out, I would MUCH prefer knowing that my images contain as large a gamut of color as possible.

                                                          I'm not too worried about the archival nature of post-processed images. Because I shoot in raw, my "original" is not constrained by any colour space (other than the sensor's). If I ever need to produce a photo with a bigger colour space, I just go back to the master and re-process.

                                                           

                                                          The main reason I adopted AdobeRGB as a working colour space in ACR was not because of these myths (or "advice", as I took it), but because it seemed the best way I could control profile conversion. I found that photos with very deep colours, processed as ProPhoto, gave me a headache because I couldn't persuade Photoshop to render them satisfactorily using any of the available intents, no matter what I tried.

                                                           

                                                          Every proof I generated produced horrible flat images. So I went back to ACR, and reduced the colour space and changed the develop settings to give me a better conversion - one I had more control over.

                                                           

                                                          I suppose there must be ways to do this in Photoshop, using a ProPhoto workspace, but, if there is, I couldn't find them. Pointers are welcome!

                                                          • 26. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                            RASouthworth Level 3

                                                            Are your comments about rendering within Photoshop with various intents and generating proofs describing your experience with prints?  If so you have another can of worms to worry about, i.e. printer profiles and the acompanying Photoshop and printer driver settings.  A good printer profile should enable you to render from any image workspace (using Photoshop) into the printer/paper/quality workspace (each printer profile is specfic to only one combination of pinter, paper, and quality level) without significant difference (other than loss of some saturated colors because of the image workspace gamut limits) at the same rendering intent.

                                                             

                                                            That being said most printer profiles floating around are from paper and printer manufacturers, and few are of good quality IMO.  Yes, I'm prejudiced because I generate custom profiles, but it's amazing to me how few are generated with what I consider good profiling software.  I would be interested in the specifics of your experience, as to printer brand and profile origin.

                                                             

                                                            Richard Southworth

                                                            • 27. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                              Noel Carboni Level 7
                                                              function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                              Jeff Schewe wrote:


                                                              Show me ANY proof that using a larger color space with 16 bit is in ANY way less optimal that a larger color space and I'll eat my hat.

                                                               

                                                              I can't resist responding to this, since you've given us license to interpret the phrase "ANY way less optimal"...

                                                               

                                                              Beyond the descriptions above about how sucky some of the color transforms can make an image look...

                                                               

                                                              Perhaps a person prefers to save files from ACR (see the thread entitled "Any way to shortcut 'Workflow Options'?"), or maybe he/she just prefers to use File - Save As, JPEG from within Photoshop.

                                                               

                                                              Perhaps, further, this person occasionally forgets to set/convert to the proper document profile before saving.

                                                               

                                                              I'll go out on a limb and propose that they feel it would be an unforgivable social blunder to have a ProPhoto RGB image end up being seen in a non-color-managed browser ("I looked at your holiday pictures, and my gosh, Aunt Mary sure is looking pale!  Are you sure you're taking good enough care of her?"), sent to a normal human who thinks color management is an Equal Opportunity initiative (in whispered tones, "Geez, I thought they said he was a good photographer."), or sent to a printer that expects sRGB input ("Yuck!  My print sure looked better than what they published in the book"), or...

                                                               

                                                              Fedoras go down a bit easier with a glass of wine.  I have experience. 

                                                               

                                                              -Noel

                                                              • 28. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                Perhaps a person prefers to save files from ACR (see the thread entitled "Any way to shortcut 'Workflow Options'?"), or maybe he/she just prefers to use File - Save As, JPEG from within Photoshop.

                                                                 

                                                                Perhaps, further, this person occasionally forgets to set/convert to the proper document profile before saving.

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                Ah...but there's nothing wrong with the processing of the image in a larger color space and the lack of a color profile is the problem (or using a non-color managed viewer). A smaller color space such as Adobe RGB would still end up looking wrong, just less wrong than having properly transformed from the larger space to the smaller space for the purpose of non-color managed apps. That's hardly the fault of the larger color space...

                                                                • 29. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                  5DM2 Level 1

                                                                  I agree with you that Workflow Options needs to be fixed. I would like to be able to create Presets and choose from a dropdown before I Save. The way it is now, I won't risk changing it to sRGB to export some JPGs and then forget to change it back. So I just leave it at Adobe RGB/16bit.

                                                                  One workaround I use is to click DONE instead of SAVE IMAGE, select the images I want to be JPGs and export them using the Image Processor (Tools/Photoshop/Image Processor) . This allows me to convert to sRGB if I want to, as well as running an action at the end and inserting Copyright Information.

                                                                  Yes, it's an extra step, but it gets the job done.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                    NormanPCN Level 1

                                                                    That risk just caught me. I just caught my workflow at 8-bit sRGB. Probably because I was working with some digicam jpegs. Even though I nearly always shoot RAW with my SLR, my digicam can never shoot RAW. For jpeg/tiff I still like the idea of an option to just keep the source bit and color space.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                      5DM2 wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      I agree with you that Workflow Options needs to be fixed. I would like to be able to create Presets and choose from a dropdown before I Save.

                                                                       

                                                                      Don't be surprised to see just that in a future version of ACR...in the mean time, the workflow settings CAN be recorded in an action and applied via Batch from within Bridge. At least that way if you are processing a ton of images you can be absolutely sure that the images are processed in the right color space and bit depth...

                                                                      • 32. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                        Yammer Level 4

                                                                        RASouthworth wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        Are your comments about rendering within Photoshop with various intents and generating proofs describing your experience with prints?  If so you have another can of worms to worry about, i.e. printer profiles and the acompanying Photoshop and printer driver settings.  A good printer profile should enable you to render from any image workspace (using Photoshop) into the printer/paper/quality workspace (each printer profile is specfic to only one combination of pinter, paper, and quality level) without significant difference (other than loss of some saturated colors because of the image workspace gamut limits) at the same rendering intent.

                                                                         

                                                                        That being said most printer profiles floating around are from paper and printer manufacturers, and few are of good quality IMO.  Yes, I'm prejudiced because I generate custom profiles, but it's amazing to me how few are generated with what I consider good profiling software.  I would be interested in the specifics of your experience, as to printer brand and profile origin.

                                                                        Not specifically. I have problems converting to AdobeRGB and sRGB too.

                                                                         

                                                                        Let me give you an example. I've uploaded a file here http://yphotography.co.uk/temp/tulips.dng

                                                                        Optionally, my camera calibration profile (made with Adobe DNG Profile Editor) is here: http://yphotography.co.uk/temp/d300.zip  - although it's not necessary to illustrate my point, it does exaggerate the problem.

                                                                         

                                                                        If you look at the image in ProPhoto on a "wide gamut" monitor, you can see very deep red in the tulips. With very little adjustment, you can process the image and pass it to Photoshop. In Photoshop, use the proof preview to view the image in Adobe or standard RGB with different rendering intents. You should see what I mean. The same thing happens with my printer profiles - both manufacturers' and home-made.

                                                                         

                                                                        Now, go back to the image in ACR, and change the workspace to Adobe or standard RGB. Play with Exposure, Recovery, Shadow Fill and Clarity to get a good result, and pass it on to Photoshop. Compare the two.

                                                                         

                                                                        Hopefully, you're going to tell me I'm doing it all wrong, and provide me with the obvious solution!

                                                                         

                                                                        By the way, I hope it goes without saying that this image is copyrighted, and can not be reproduced without permission.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                          RASouthworth Level 3

                                                                          I probably didn't do the experiment as you wished, but here is what I did:

                                                                           

                                                                          1. Opened in ACR, rendered in ProPhoto with no clipping, to Photoshop with no edits.

                                                                           

                                                                          2. Convert to Profile to sRGB in Photoshop, saw the clipping occur (lost gradations in some of the reds), although because of the limitation of my monitor did not see the full extent.  I may go back with the eyedropper in Lab and poke around a little to "see" the full effect.  Note I did not use View > Proof Colors to convert from ProPhoto to sRGB, depending upon settings it is really only suitable for proofing print images.  And also note that when converting from one (standard) image colorspace to another the rendering intent is irrelevant as long as one doesn't use Absolute.  I.E., colorspace profiles are very compact matrix based transfer functions, with no separate Relative/Perceptual/Saturation elements.  Absolute will cause a visual difference in that the white point comes into play, and sRGB is different from ProPhoto, D65 vs. D50.

                                                                           

                                                                          3.  I then went back, opened in ACR and rendered in sRGB, obvious clipping.  Brought the image into Photoshop and as far as I could see (and briefly measure) it was identical to the first.

                                                                           

                                                                          I will go back and do as you suggested, i.e. bring it into Photoshop in ProPhoto and do some editing, and report back if I see any anomalies.

                                                                           

                                                                          Richard Southworth

                                                                          • 34. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                            Yammer Level 4

                                                                            In Photoshop's 'Convert to Profile' dialogue, there is a Preview tick box. Ticking this box on Adobe or standard RGB settings gives me exactly the same effect as the Proofing tool. The rendering intent doesn't appear to make any significant visible difference in this case.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                              RASouthworth Level 3

                                                                              As long as you don't invoke "simulate paper color" or "simulate black ink".  If the former is selected Photoshop uses the "backpath" of the profile to provide an Absolute rendering of the conversion result, in an attempt to represent the final print copy.  However this proof rendering is then shoved thru the display profile for viewing on your monitor, so it gains an additional conversion which may make it difficult to compare against a print, depending upon several factors.  I find it useful to check on loss of contrast, brightness and black density, but one must use it with a grain of salt.

                                                                               

                                                                              Convert to Profile is aimed primarily at image colorspace conversion, Proof Colors at print previewing.  Use them otherwise at your own risk.

                                                                               

                                                                              Richard Southworth

                                                                              • 36. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                                RASouthworth Level 3

                                                                                Experimented more with your image (it is a gorgeous picture), brought it into ACR ProPhoto and then into Photoshop CS5.  Did a softproof using a profile generated for satin rc paper on my Epson 3880, the largest color gamut I could find.  As expected the image showed severe gamut warning, almost all of the red flower surface was flagged.  I obtained good results by using the hue/saturation control to drop the reds lightness about 28 points.  Didn't actually produce a print, but I would anticipate no problems given prior experience.  So again I was not able to observe any deficiency going the ProPhoto route, containing all of the colors in the original image until final output editing.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Richard Southworth

                                                                                • 37. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                                  Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                                  RASouthworth wrote:

                                                                                   

                                                                                  So again I was not able to observe any deficiency going the ProPhoto route, containing all of the colors in the original image until final output editing.

                                                                                   

                                                                                   

                                                                                  And this points to the benefits of using Pro Photo RGB as a working space. Yes, it's bigger and any output space can ever be but using soft proofing (I tend to ignore Gamut Warning because while it tells you what is out of gamut, it doesn't tell how much) you can actually do something about colors that may clip (and certainly would have with a smaller color space).

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Also, when going to an output profile (as apposed to a working space profile) you actually get the benefits of being able to use a Perceptual mapping of out of gamut colors-something you lose when you transform directly into a smaller color space.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Lot's of technical reasons for using Pro Photo RGB in 16 bit and few if any "real" reasons not to.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                                    Yammer Level 4

                                                                                    RASouthworth wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I obtained good results by using the hue/saturation control to drop the reds lightness about 28 points.  Didn't actually produce a print, but I would anticipate no problems given prior experience.  So again I was not able to observe any deficiency going the ProPhoto route, containing all of the colors in the original image until final output editing.

                                                                                    So, you're saying that you had to manipulate the image using adjustment layers in Photoshop before you could get a decent conversion soft proof?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    How is that any different from manipulating the image in ACR with the same colour space?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    In both cases, we are adjusting the image, with visual feedback, to better fit into the target colour space, except one is done in ACR and the other is done in Photoshop. Arguably, the ACR route is simpler, although the Photoshop route is better suited to non-standard profiles like for printing.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Don't get me wrong, I'm not arguing against anybody, I'm just not aware anyone has yet given me a compelling reason to prefer a different workflow. I provided an example image, and it had to be adjusted using adjustment layers in Photoshop. How is this better than adjusting it in ACR? It's a genuine question, not a challenge.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Any way to shortcut "Workflow Options"?
                                                                                      RASouthworth Level 3

                                                                                      There is no way to manipulate the image within ACR to fit it into a printer profile color space, only into one of the four provided workspaces.  One is flying blind trying to edit the image in ACR for a final print rendering.  I edited the image at a point in the workfllow where I could more accurately judge print color gamut fit, and by using ProPhoto I didn't "throw away" any colors in advance.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      If the end goal is for email/web, i.e. display only, then I agree manipulating within ACR in sRGB is ok, and that's exactly what I do for 95% of my pictures, saving directly out of ACR.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      Richard Southworth

                                                                                      1 2 Previous Next