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1. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
snunicycler Dec 28, 2010 7:41 AM (in response to TCarp)I have it layed out on a 11x8.5 page (although it actually uses about 6x8.5.
My thinking is to select all, grab a corner, hold down the shift key, and drag. My first question is: am I getting the advantage of vector (i.e. quality resize)?
depends, did you just copy and place the objects into illustrator after drawing them in microsoft office? if you did, then no, your shapes will look bad. and probably the text will too.
the only way vector images will scale up without loss of quality is if there are no raster objects in the peice. you'll want to do all of your project in illustrator if you want to be able to resize it well.
Second, is there a way to control the final size as a percentage (for example) of the original selected area? This question is because I may, in some cases, have a target size in mind. For example, in the Word case, if I save the IL file as a picture and insert it into the document, Word already does some resizing (to fit the page dimensions (I assume). In this case, the result is an image 23% of the original size (according to Word). That's still a bit too big for my purposes. I'd prefer 15% of the original.
uh... i think what you would have to do is find the size, in inches, that you want the image to be. then resize the illustrator document (save it as a copy) then put that in word. i dont think it will resize it if it is small enough (i could be wrong though, i dont use word)
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2. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
TCarp Dec 28, 2010 7:59 AM (in response to snunicycler)Thanks
I probably should have explained the IL document a little better. Every object in the IL document was created in IL. There are 5 rounded rectangles, a few point type objects and a couple area type objects along with some lines. My assumption is that every object in the IL document is a vector object. Nothing was introduced from outside.
From your comment it sounds like the resize will look fine.
To help a little with the Word example, objects are inserted as pictures (gif, jpeg, etc.) which, I assume, means they are now rastor and therefore will lose quality in things like the type if resized.
You may have answered my question (or at least given me an answer) by using the rulers. What I'm also asking is can I just specify a size in IL for a collection of objects (select all) and have IL do the resize or can I only do this by click-drag?
Thanks
Tom
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3. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
Wade_Zimmerman Dec 28, 2010 8:03 AM (in response to TCarp)snunicycler clearly did not read yourposting.
You clearly stated you had point tet and area text and that you had rounded rectangles as well. And clearly you are creating this document in AI.
And the answer is yes you will benefit from resizing the vector by **** dragging and if you group the text and art it will assure you do not leave an element unselected.
However I prefer to resize text myself by using character settings for the text, that is by point size as you enlarge the text you might find after you become more experience that the text might do better with a tighter tracking setting when enlarged. But that can wait for now.
You can also after grouping the objects select the group with the selection tool (back arrow) and use the transform panel or control panel or click on the scale tool to bring up the scaling options and enter either a specific % or dimension and you can do this constraining the proportions or scaling width and length separately.
As for tutorials the help files will help and Adobe TV has video tutorials as well.
If you do not find suh that you can understand I will do one later and post it here.
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4. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
snunicycler Dec 28, 2010 8:05 AM (in response to TCarp) -
5. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
snunicycler Dec 28, 2010 8:59 AM (in response to Wade_Zimmerman)c'mon, go easy on me. i read it, several times.
he could have just as easily placed the rounded rectangles into illustrator from word instead of creating them in illustrator. and i answered for both situations. i said if they were done in illustrator he is going to be fine. if they were placed they would not.
as for the second question, i answered with what i thought would be the best help for him. when i read it, it sounded (to me) like he was not positive what % he needed it to be and i figured it would be easier to just find out what size he wants the end result to be. rather than messing with the % in illy, then putting it in word to see if it works, then if not go BACK to illy, then put it in word and check...
on an unrelated note, is there anyway i can edit earlier posts? in the thread that i mistakenly cited steve instead of you for the recoloring technique ( Colour guide and gradients cs4) i tried to edit it to give you the credit instead of steve but the edit button was not there.
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6. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
Wade_Zimmerman Dec 28, 2010 9:26 AM (in response to snunicycler)Well…as for the first matter the OP states they have area type and point type. That is a clear indication it is created in Illustrator they also say they are weening themselves away for Word. Then they say they have rounded rectangles also a term and object commonly used in AI.
It seems clear what they are doing and the the OP is concise but thorough in their description of what they are doing and has a good understanding of it as well but simply wants reinforcement that their understanding is correct.
They have been very careful in how they stated their concerns, they have put some thought into their well phrase description.
I thought I would take this opportunity of pointing this out to you.
As for your other concern it is not necessary to do anything.
The point I was making is it is often difficult to understand what each of us is writing and meaning, a few more seconds might be more helpful and they OP will definitely really appreciate your effort.
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7. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
TCarp Dec 28, 2010 9:26 AM (in response to Wade_Zimmerman)Wade
Thank you. Interesting you mentioned resizing text. I'll do some homework on that. What IL does after resize is end up with interesting type sizes (e.g. 9.8) which triggered a thought that I might want to control that more when resizing. For now, since my process is to export to a picture (jpg), my first study will be to understand whether export is "sensitive" to type sizes.
Thanks for the pointer to some tutorials. I'll undoubtedly be back with some more questions.
Tom
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8. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
TCarp Dec 28, 2010 9:30 AM (in response to snunicycler)I do appreciate your reponses so don't give up. As I mentioned, I'm a beginner with IL and need all the help I can get.
As I mentioned in my original post, I'm weaning off of MS PP for graphics used in documents (and on the web). It's not unusual for me (and I assume for others) to be faced with the need to take some graphics and put it in some sort of document (e.g. Word, ID). The nice thing about ID (as I understand it) is the vector attributes are maintained. But for apps like Word, or for web stuff, the data shows up as an image which means its lost its vector attributes.
Tom
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9. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
Wade_Zimmerman Dec 28, 2010 9:31 AM (in response to TCarp)TCarp always good to see a beginner illustrator user with as much intelligence as you possess.I wish I had it when I started to use Illustrator.
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10. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
TCarp Dec 28, 2010 9:43 AM (in response to Wade_Zimmerman)Well said, although I sometimes think I'm too verbose in my descriptions.
As a clarification, it's not so much Word I'm weaning off of, it's more PowerPoint. PP is very easy app to use for presentation graphics but it tends to force the graphics intended for documents or the web to be first saved as an image. Once in image (gif, jpg) quality is lost when resizing thus the journey into IL
Compared to PP the desktop and options/capabilities in IL are daunting which is why I tend to think in terms of a process, not just the mechanics of IL (which I can usually figure out via IL help).
Describing the "scenario" of getting resized graphics into another application is the general capability I'm working on. This also can help me understand which app to do the resizing in. For example, if the target app allows for inserting vector objects (like ID) then resizing may be more "accurate" after the objects are copied.
Tom
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11. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
Wade_Zimmerman Dec 28, 2010 10:03 AM (in response to TCarp)Depends on what you mean by more accurate and how you chose to resize the art.
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12. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
CarlosCanto Dec 29, 2010 1:15 PM (in response to TCarp)I do just that, Illustrator to Word, I do the resizing in Illustrator for smaller Word file size.
1. I make my art in illustrator, ends up at 6.89" W x 8.12" H, select all, copy and
2. in Word, Paste Special....Bitmap
3. resize it to my needs, then check the final resized measurements in this case 3.26" H x 2.77" W
4. back to Illustrator I find out the resize ratio, since 8.12" is 100%, then 3.26" is 40.14%. I don't need it to be that accurate so I resize to 40%.
that was to find out how much to resize in Illustrator, so from now on
1. I make my art in Illustrator, select all, resize to 40% click on copy, then cut the resized copy and
2. In Word, Paste Special...Bitmap
3. Reposition
hope it helps
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13. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
PrepressPro1 Dec 29, 2010 2:04 PM (in response to TCarp)Just for my own edification here, why would you even use Word when you have Illustrator and InDesign? Perhaps you have to share these Word documents with others who need to open them in Word. You might want to explore the possibilities of not using Word, and if you need to share the end product with others, use Acrobat PDF.
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14. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
CarlosCanto Dec 29, 2010 4:10 PM (in response to PrepressPro1)PrepressPro1 wrote:
Just for my own edification here, why would you even use Word when you have Illustrator and InDesign? Perhaps you have to share these Word documents with others who need to open them in Word. You might want to explore the possibilities of not using Word, and if you need to share the end product with others, use Acrobat PDF.
in my case the documents we make date way back before I was familiar with Adobe products, I have contemplated the idea of using InDesign but since I don't know how to use it, I don't know if I could replicate the documents we do in Word. All I need is one page with sketches (from Illustrator) another page with a bunch of small tables with data in them and a 3rd page with measurements that requiere calculations (currently from Excel). Plus the office suite is highly scriptable and I have created a number of routines that almost create the docs themselves (ok, I exagerated a little :), they just help a lot). Would there be a significant advantage if I switch to InD/PDF?
sorry for Hijacking the post....
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15. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
TCarp Dec 30, 2010 7:36 AM (in response to CarlosCanto)Actually, I'm very glad you did hijack the post. My intent is to allow the topic to flow a bit to get a thorough understanding of the process(es).
First, on Word vs Acrobat. For your education ID is a very nice page layout program. I've dabbled in it for learning and it's relatively easy to learn. The nice thing, in the context of this thread, is "imported" vector objects can stay vector which eliminates a step or two.
Back to the Word question...
The answer, in my case, is mostly habit (re: Word) and lack of understanding (re: Acrobat). I have tended to stay with Word so that others can make changes. This includes not just review markups (I've heard Acrobat allows markup via the Reader) but also the possibility of someone else inheriting responsibility for the original document. I'm retired so much of the work I do today is volunteer and I have to think about what other volunteers might have as apps.
Back to the thread....
I'll try the process you mentioned. Sounds promising and aligns nicely with how I'm working with the Word document.
I also started down a different path (which I may abandon) that brought up some questions about saving IL images. Since I may end up with web versions of the graphics saving the file as a gif or jpg was the way I was headed.
The issue that came up was how much of an image (the canvas) that IL saves. The most recent test was to export the IL document as a jpg and then insert the picture in the Word document. What I saw were "margins" around the graphic much larger than I wanted. The technique I used was to crop the image with an image app but it would be nice to avoid the step.
What determines the boundaries of the image IL saves (or exports)?
Tom
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16. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
TCarp Dec 30, 2010 7:42 AM (in response to CarlosCanto)Just ran a test on this and, as another post I made says, there is more of a margin around the graphics in the bitmap than I want. I select all>copy. The top is right next to the graphic but the right and left are not. I've looked for invisible objects and large type area definitions in the margins but nothing so far.
As asked in another post, what controls the boundaries of a copied IL image?
Tom
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17. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
Wade_Zimmerman Dec 30, 2010 7:48 AM (in response to CarlosCanto)I think you would benefit if you switch to ID and what I suggest is that you visit the ID scripting forum and ask about recreating your scripts for ID.
You might ind they already exist and are free from fellow scripting users.
You might find that there are functions in ID that will function in an action instead of a script.
You should visit the I forums and ask these questions about merging data and importing link tables from excel you might possibly like I even better.
And since you have a limited need you might be able to learn what you need todo without be an expert of ID and then later catch on to the rest of it.
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18. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
CarlosCanto Dec 30, 2010 10:50 AM (in response to Wade_Zimmerman)Hi Wade, thanks for the advise, I'll give InD a try.
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19. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
CarlosCanto Dec 30, 2010 11:06 AM (in response to TCarp)I'm with you Tom, I'm mostly habit, when I started it was kind of industry standard to use cut and paste handmade sketches (with actual scisors and glue) into a premade Word document, then photocopied to be able to fax it...yeah sounds like stone age days.
back to your question, I too export as jpeg for others to use on their own documents, I have recorded an action to do that. I could use those in my documents but I preffer cut & past the way I described in an earlier post.
about the image margins, they should be flushed with the visible boundaries of the image, unless you have a clipping mask, wich will include the whole non-visible part of the mask also. If you don't have clipping mask, you probably have Stray Points somewhere in your image, remove them and you should be ok, it has happened to me before.
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20. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
JETalmage Dec 31, 2010 8:35 AM (in response to TCarp)Tom,
Honestly, I haven't read this whole thread in careful detail, but I really think the best advice would be for you to first, fully describe the kind of content you are trying to deliver and what you want the recipients to be able to do with it; second, map out a workflow for your intended purposes; and only then worry about the how-to specifics and the collection of software tools.
Here's what I read:
You have been using PowerPoint as your generic drawing tool. That, and your descriptions so far, suggest relatively simple graphics (lines, boxes, elbows, text, simple polygons). In short, it makes me wonder if you even really need a program like Illustrator at all.
You want your final deliverables to be editable by your recipients. That alone goes a long way toward ruling out the native formats of Adobe applications, their expense, and their learning curves. It's a common practice in both business and mom & pop general use to treat native Office files as if they are some kind of "universal editable exchange format," just because they are so ubiquitious. You can't make that kind of assumption with graphics-production apps (like Adobe's). You can easily over-complicate things by deciding up-front that you need to jump into that arena. Are you an author, or do you really want to embark on a designer career? Look, if you're not designing for mass commercial reproduction, you may be entirely off-base thinking you need to involve Adobe apps at all.
You are now straining to find a workflow which will "upgrade" your vector graphics (with a program like Illustrator) while still retaining the full editability of your deliverables in a format that mom & pop America knows how to deal with.
Here are some basic things you may not be considering from a practicality standpoint:
- Programs like InDesign, Illustrator, et all (regardless of their "me, too" re-purposing in recent years for web-centric work) were created for commercial reproduction (i.e. printing in a PostScript environment). It is completely impractical to try to use their native files as any kind of "universal" exchange format for use by a general public--especially if you want your deliverables to be editable by recipients not equipped for or skilled in their use.
- PDF effectively makes the final content of documents created in graphics programs deliverable as is. Its basic purpose is to make documents created in pretty much anything readable by those without the authoring programs, while maintaining fidelity to the appearance of the final document. It's not really meant for overal editing like in the native program that created the document. If you want PDF to be your target final deliverable product, then fine; you can produce more sophisticated PDFs by doing your authoring work in graphics apps. But you'll be sacrificing the kind of native editability you are accustomed to with your current Office-based workflow.
- Office programs are from another world. They don't talk PostScript. They don't worry about things like halftones and color separation and all kinds of other print-world esoterica. They're not as detail-sophisticated as dedicated drawing programs in things like finely-controlled Bezier path drawing. They don't natively support the same paths and constructs contained in Illustrator artwork.
- Adobe's own "recommended" format for incorporating Illustrator artwork into Office applications is not vector at all; it's PNG, a raster format. That's what the Save For Office feature in Illustrator is all about. That fact alone should tell you alot about what you are getting into when you want to use AI to routinely populate Office documents with vector artwork from Illustrator.
- Office apps do, however, exist in the real workaday world, and do therefore provide general-purpose means by which to incorporate text, raster, and vector objects for constructing graphics.
- You have mentioned concern for vector scaleablilty several times. You seem to be unaware that even Office programs do in fact have their own graphics model for vector graphics. On Windows, that's what formats like Windows Metafile (WMF) and Enhanced Metafile (EMF) are all about. Those are the kinds of objects that are created by the various drawing tools that reside in not just PowerPoint, but also in Word, Excel, Access, et all.
- Don't think that you can't create professional-looking results in the Office applications you are already familiar with. "Professional" results is more a matter of design skill and artistic discernment than software. (Believe me, far more amateurish work is created in Illustrator than "professional" work.) It sounds to me (especially since you have been using only the drawing tools in PPT) like you may not have really explored the graphics capability that already exists in the Office applications you are using, and which you really want to use as your fully-editable deliverables anyway.
In helping you devise a suitable workflow, I would ask you questions like these:
- Describe (and show examples) of the most "sophisticated' kinds of graphics that you envision needing to routinely include in your deliverables.
- Describe the level of editability that you want your recipients to be able to perform.
- Describe the functional content of your deliverables. For example, do you want your deliverables to contain live, editable spreadsheets that your users can use as "calculators" or "what if" graphs? Do you understand that while you can build some forms-based interactivity in PDFs, doing so is a relatively painstaking and esoteric process, whereas in Office applications, its pretty much a copy/paste affair?
- Have you fully explored the drawing feature sets in Office applications? Do you really understand their capabilities and limitations?
JET
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21. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
TCarp Jan 1, 2011 7:26 AM (in response to JETalmage)Thanks for the very thorough post. I really appreciate it.
I’ll respond with two posts: this one to “explain” why I’m asking vector scaling questions in an IL forum and the other to follow up on some “technical” points you made.
You caught me! I don't have a full appreciation of what capabilities exist in Office apps for graphics for the same reason I don’t have a full appreciation of the capabilities of Adobe apps. I have no professional aspirations that require an extensive knowledge of any apps so I’m pretty much self-taught with new learning often occurring because of new needs. I retired from a management career some years back and do quite a bit of volunteer work these days. I’m also quite active in community, particularly as an advocate with local government. That’s where any skills I have are applied.
Most of my work is in Office (Word, Excel, Powerpoint, etc.) although I’ve also dabbled in web site work. Some has been work for my post-retirement business but most supports my volunteer activities.
I ended up with the Adobe suite because of a charity auction some years back where I got a laptop that came bundled with CS2 and Studio 8. A few years back I upgraded to CS5 simply because I had the resources to do so and had begun to use DW, a bit of and some basic Acrobat.
So, although MS Office probably could take care of all my needs these days, and a good web site template product could take care of my web needs, I have other resources that create the opportunity to learn.
You’re also right that my graphic needs are pretty basic; usually the same shapes generally available in many apps (i.e. rectangles, lines, etc.). This means that IL is overkill and therefore far more complex to learn. But, so what? I find it fun and a good source of satisfaction for my creative needs to work with different apps.
I have a pretty good understanding of Word, Excel, and Powerpoint and have done some testing in Access and Publisher however in no app would I consider myself anything other than a novice or journeyman compared to those who use these apps far more than I, particularly those who use them in a professional capacity. I’ve dabbled in Illustrator, InDesign, Fireworks, and Dreamweaver. I recently started working a little with PHP and MySql. In no case am I using anything approaching full capabilities.
I tend to learn in small increments. I’ll work on something until I get tired of it hopefully walking away with a new and better technique. This is a good place to come to get some direction as I open up new learning. Simple posts like the yours can (and will) trigger days of “homework” via Google.
But perhaps the most important reason for using the Adobe apps and being a participant in the Adobe forums (other than just having the apps) is because I get excellent responses when I come here. I’ve tried the MSFT forums and feel lost in a very big sea. Here, with your post as an example, I can probe the topics in a way that gives me the perspectives I need to learn, including challenging why I’m not using an Office app for my needs.
It’s a horribly inefficient way to learn, but serves my learning style nicely.
I want to say again how much I appreciate you (and others) taking the time to post to these questions.
I put another post up to describe the process and outputs I’m after and the intent to allow for others to update.
Thanks again for your very thoughtful post!
Tom
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22. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
TCarp Jan 3, 2011 6:01 AM (in response to CarlosCanto)Carlos
This is exactly what I needed. I got it to work but now I'm having a problem I'm assuming is unrelated to your technique.
I did a select all, copy, and then paste special:bitmap in Word. It doesn't paste anything.
I went back to experiment and noticed a select all for the "active artboard". When I use that technique to select the paste works.
Have you ever run into this and, if so, does it mean I've done something that would impact select all?
Thanks
Tom
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23. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
TCarp Jan 3, 2011 6:29 AM (in response to CarlosCanto)This is a follow up to the post on not being able to copy>paste.
First, there's obviously something I've done to the IL document because if I create a new one, select all and copy the graphics from the original IL file to the new one and then try the copy to Word it works.
Second, and unrelated to the copy/paste issue, I'm noticing some slight differences in how the graphics are displayed after the paste. This latest attempt shows lines and text "heavier" than an earlier copy/paste. The lines appear to be greater than the 1pt in the original and the text appears bolded.
The size of the two objects are the same (or only hundreths of an inch difference).
This is probably more of an image handling question than an IL one.
Tom
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24. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
CarlosCanto Jan 3, 2011 11:19 AM (in response to TCarp)I haven't had any issues copying/pasting, everytime I paste into Word something gets pasted. It only fails to paste when I use the keyboard shortcuts, CS5 has a bad habit of activating the Menus after pressing the Alt key so sometimes I'm not aware of it and Ctrl+C does not copy anything.
This latest attempt shows lines and text "heavier" than an earlier copy/paste. The lines appear to be greater than the 1pt in the original and the text appears bolded.
it happens when I Copy and Paste in Front in Illustrator, so one copy is on top of the original.
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25. Re: Beginner ? on resizing vector for uses outside Illustrator
TCarp Jan 5, 2011 10:26 AM (in response to JETalmage)JET, you also asked some important questions. Some thoughts, including some answers to your questions about my intended uses::
Use of Powerpoint vs. Illustrator for basic graphics (areas, lines, points, text)
In my case, the decision to use PP or IL will ultimately come down to good basic graphic & layout capabilities, ease of use, and accessibility. Both PP and IL handle the capabilities well. Ease of use appears to be similar (and much improved in IL between CS2 and CS5) once the IL interface is learned. The other aspect of ease of use is managing graphics for use in other applications (print and web). I've been posting to Carlos about the process to copy the graphics from IL to, in this case, Word with the greatest quality (fidelity to the original).
Accessibility is separated into three "users". If graphics and layout are separated, one user will be those that work on display (documents, presentations, web) where graphic objects are inserted and positioned but not sized. There are a variety of possible outputs from this group including presentations (page or show), proposals, plans, etc.
Another user will be those that work on the graphics. Right now I'm doing both. Volumes will be low but could include everything from presentation graphics to simple logo work destined for print (including PDF) and web including small graphics (buttons, lines, etc.). I've used Fireworks for web-destined objects in the past.
The last users are the citizens that live in a geographic subarea (about 40 sq mi) and the county jurisdiction within which it lies. A good example that includes both might be a "community plan". In many cases, PDFs will work fine. However, to make documents and presentations accessible, sometimes they need to be in "native" format. If graphics and documents are separated, this will make Word or PP the target for the user with the graphics inserted as images (e.g. BMP).
Another factor behind the choice of PP or IL is the other vector formats (e.g. WMF, EMF) you mentioned. I'm also a begginner when it comes to manipulating to clusters of vector objects. I didn';t realize that Windows had formats for both bitmap and vector. I'm assuming that means that the resizing limitation can be lifted. Here its a need for understanding graphics quality across apps.
If you have a reference to some info that can help a beginner understand the Windows formats, this might be a good time to look at some others too (GIF, BMP, TIFF). Obviously I have some things to learn about resizing vector objects in general.
For now, I have the graphics in both PP and IL although I've been working in IL lately.
I hope I covered most of your questions.
Tom




