11 Replies Latest reply on Dec 30, 2010 1:53 PM by Colin Brougham

    How to export edited 5D material into same Format

    SuperOperater Level 1

      Hello ppl!

       

      Just maybe someone can help me with this one...

       

      I know it is more of Technical side of 5D, but my Q has something to do with it;

       

      As we know, 5D shoots video, compresses it with H.264 codec and saves it in .MOV container!

       

      For EDITING purposes I use ADOBE CS5 (strong working station with CUDA Mercury engine and everything)...

       

      Anyhow, I was just shooting "Making Of" for some Feature film - and what I wanna do is CLEAR FOOTAGE MATERIALS of unnecessary parts - and then export it back to HDD and give it to Film production

      ...

      But how do I get to export edited material in the same container and with same properties as originally shot footage was????

       

      ADOBE has quite powerful MEDIA ENCODER, but you can't save h.264 file to have .MOV extension!!!

      You can choose H.264, but then your file will have [b]*.mp4[/b] extension... -- Further on - will that file be of the same quality as the file I downloaded from my CF-card???

       

      Any ideas about that - or maybe an advice for some other ENCODER???? ----- Just don't suggest MAC cause I can't afford it at the moment!!!!

       

      What I can do is use AVID MEDIA COMPOSER 4 or 5 (also on my Windows workstation) - but since AVID recodes all footage as the first step when importing it, I am not sure it would fullfill my needs!!!!!

       

      Hope someone will know how to handle it!!!!

       

      Cheers!

      V:

        • 1. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
          Harm Millaard Level 7

          MOV is only suitable for MAC's. For PC you want to avoid it at all costs, because it completely destroys the 64 bit nature of a 64 bit application and is the most taxing and unreliable codec available.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
            SuperOperater Level 1

            Thanx for your answer... and - yeah, sort of know it - but the problem is that the main editing of entire Film (including my "Making Of" is being edited on MAC!!!

             

            So, what I need to do is clean up this footage and export it for further editing...

             

            Another thing that is really bothering me is - HOW AM I GONNA DO THE ACTUAL TRANSFER TO MAC ---- since it is about 150GB of footage on my external WD MY BOOK hard drive, it is NTFS formated (Mac can't open files from NTFS formated disks) - I know it could work if files were on FAT32, but some files are simply bigger than 4GB ---- This is another big "enigma" which I don't know how to solve!!!!!

            • 3. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
              Colin Brougham Level 6

              Premiere Pro on a PC works just fine with MOVs, both importing and exporting. I'm working with about 6TB of DVCPRO50 MOVs on my PC (even my laptop) with no real measurable side effects. It's fun to to bash on QuickTime, but for any of us working in the real world, maintaining an adversarial point-of-view on it is a good way to lose work.

               

              That aside, PPro isn't going to accomplish what you need here. Basically, you're looking for "smart encoding" where only frames that require re-encoding are recompressed; this is necessary with temporally-compressed media like that from a 5D (H.264). Premiere will obviously let you trim these clips, but exporting to QuickTime H.264 is going to force a re-encode of the entire piece--not what you're after.

               

              However, it might not be a problem, anyway--does FCP (which is what I assume is being used for the editing) actually work with the 5D MOVs? Or, like some other formats/codecs, are the files transcoded to something like ProRes on import? If so, you could use a different intermediate codec than H.264 and export to that; if FCP is going to transcode the files (the H.264 files, that is), you can save that step and export to something that FCP will work with natively. On a PC, unfortunately, you don't have access to ProRes as an encoding codec (just playback), but a good cross-platform option are the Avid QuickTime Codecs. Use DNxHD, and Premiere (on a PC) can write the file, and FCP will edit them natively.

               

              If, however, you want to simply trim these H.264 MOVs, check out MPEG Streamclip. You don't need QuickTime Pro; simply open your 5D MOV in MPEG Streamclip, mark an in and out point (I and O, respectively), and go to File > Save As and enter a file name and destination. MPEG Streamclip will split the clip at the in and out point you specify, and simply copy the footage between those points with no reencoding to a new file. It's going to be a fair bit of manual work (depending on the number of files you have), but it's an easy and free way to accomplish what you're after.

               

              For reading NTFS on a Mac, I can highly recommend PARAGON NTFS for Mac. I used this on an NTFS-formatted RAID5 array to capture the 6TB of MOVs mentioned above on an FCP machine. It's cheap ($20), and if you use the coupon code here, you can get it even cheaper ($17)! That code expires on Friday...

               

              I hope some of that helps, but please post back if you need any clarification on any points. Good luck!

              • 4. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
                the_wine_snob Level 9

                For just "cleaning up the footage," would QT Pro be satisfactory here?

                 

                Just thinking, and hope that if it has limitations, you'll educate me.

                 

                Thanks and good luck to the OP,

                 

                Hunt

                • 5. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                  I personally would opt for not doing any editing.  If you have entire clips of the floor, then obviously leave them out.  But other than that, just give the editor everything you have unaltered.  Don't try to "clean things up".

                   

                  That is, after all, the editor's job.

                  • 6. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
                    MarinVanja Level 1

                    Hey Colin,

                     

                    Thank you so very much for your very detailed and helpful answer!!!!

                     

                    Of course I do have some sub-questions regarding it

                     

                    you wrote:

                    Premiere Pro on a PC works just fine with MOVs, both importing and exporting. I'm working with about 6TB of DVCPRO50 MOVs on my PC (even my laptop) with no real measurable side effects. It's fun to to bash on QuickTime, but for any of us working in the real world, maintaining an adversarial point-of-view on it is a good way to lose work.

                     

                    -You see, the problem is that my Premier, actually my Adobe Media Encoder can't export to any MOV file higher than Standard Def... Why is it so, I don't know, maybe cause my QT isn't PRO???? Do you think that going PRO would help this matter?

                     

                    than again you say:

                    If so, you could use a different intermediate codec than H.264 and export to that; if FCP is going to transcode the files (the H.264 files, that is), you can save that step and export to something that FCP will work with natively. On a PC, unfortunately, you don't have access to ProRes as an encoding codec (just playback), but a good cross-platform option are the Avid QuickTime Codecs. Use DNxHD, and Premiere (on a PC) can write the file, and FCP will edit them natively.

                    -- you also mention ProRes and Proxy here as well, but I am stuck with PC - I wonder how are those AVID QT CODECS gonna work with PREMIERE - are they also gonna re-encode the entire material???

                     

                    you say:

                    If, however, you want to simply trim these H.264 MOVs, check out MPEG Streamclip

                    - which Format (codec) are the final files gonna be???

                     

                    you say:

                    For reading NTFS on a Mac, I can highly recommend PARAGON NTFS for Mac

                    - Thanx for that one! I hope it works on Windows as well, since Windows is my OS - and thnx for coupon code:))))

                     

                    Another thing!

                    There was some mention of using Quick Time PRO as only solution here... Do you have any idea what is that all about??? What can be done - editing wise - with QT PRO??? Or is it just bringing up some more Codecs into the game????

                     

                    Sorry for having so many question and again, thank you very much and all the best to you and other guys who are trying to help me out here:)

                    • 7. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
                      Colin Brougham Level 6
                      -You see, the problem is that my Premier, actually my Adobe Media Encoder can't export to any MOV file higher than Standard Def... Why is it so, I don't know, maybe cause my QT isn't PRO???? Do you think that going PRO would help this matter?

                       

                      No, you don't need QT Pro for export (or import, for that matter). Are you selecting Preset or Video Codec in the Export Settings window? Like this:

                       

                      qt-export.png

                       

                      Do you have these, or at least most of them?

                       

                      -- you also mention ProRes and Proxy here as well, but I am stuck with PC - I wonder how are those AVID QT CODECS gonna work with PREMIERE - are they also gonna re-encode the entire material???

                       

                      The Avid codecs work fine with Premiere on a PC--I use them frequently myself. But, yes--regardless of the codec you use to export these files, they will be transcoded/re-encoded. I just checked with an FCP buddy, and he said that his Canon T2i clips (similar/same format to the 5D) will import directly into FCP, so if that's what you're using on the Mac, you can forgo the transcoding. That said, transcoding to DNxHD (or ProRes) is not going to incur a visual quality hit, though the files will be larger.

                       

                      - which Format (codec) are the final files gonna be???

                       

                      H.264! They're the same as the originals, just trimmed to length.

                       

                      - Thanx for that one! I hope it works on Windows as well, since Windows is my OS - and thnx for coupon code:))))

                       

                      Well, you use this plug-in on the Mac; it enables you to read NTFS-formatted drives on the Mac. You'd just continue to do what you've always done, and the Mac user would need the plug-in. If you want to read HFS formatted drives on a PC, you can use Paragon HFS for Windows or MacDrive. Either of those will be good for HFS drives on a PC. Of course, you only need one of these drivers; either NTFS on Mac, or HFS on PC.

                       

                      There was some mention of using Quick Time PRO as only solution here... Do you have any idea what is that all about??? What can be done - editing wise - with QT PRO??? Or is it just bringing up some more Codecs into the game????

                       

                      I prefer MPEG Streamclip; it does all the editing (well, the editing you need) that QT Pro does, and it doesn't cost anything. I recommend checking that out first before sending Steve Jobs any money

                      • 8. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
                        MarinVanja Level 1

                        Colin, you're the Man

                         

                        THnx a bunch one more time!

                         

                        And yes, my ADOBE EXPORT PRESET looks just the same ..... But when I come to the choises, what bothers me is that it's all DVCPRO 1080 and my file isn't DVCPRO, it's H.264....

                         

                        Would you go and use it anyway and recode it into DVCPRO?????

                         

                        And I just downloaded AVID codecs, just about to start PPRO to see wehre are they hanging and what do I need to choose in my Preset list...

                         

                        So, you say (as your friend suggested), that I should use DNxHD - and of we are already disscusing it, can you suggest which values to set this, yet to be found, DNxHD codec to... And everlasting question... What is my final format going to be??? Is it gonna have *.MOV extension????

                         

                        Hope after this I ain't gonna bother  you no more!!!!!

                        • 9. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
                          Colin Brougham Level 6

                          And yes, my ADOBE EXPORT PRESET looks just the same ..... But when I come to the choises, what bothers me is that it's all DVCPRO 1080 and my file isn't DVCPRO, it's H.264....

                           

                          Well, your export codec doesn't have to and won't necessarily correspond to your source footage codec--you have to choose the one you want. I guess I'm a little unsure of what you're referring to, here. Can you clarify?

                           

                          Regardless of the export codec you choose, though, the footage will be re-encode in total, even if you export again to QT H.264. That's just the nature of Premiere when exporting to this type of format and codec.

                           

                          Would you go and use it anyway and recode it into DVCPRO?????

                           

                          You could, but DNxHD is probably going to be a better choice (and I assume you're referring to DVCPROHD).

                           

                          And I just downloaded AVID codecs, just about to start PPRO to see wehre are they hanging and what do I need to choose in my Preset list...

                           

                          So, you say (as your friend suggested), that I should use DNxHD - and of we are already disscusing it, can you suggest which values to set this, yet to be found, DNxHD codec to... And everlasting question... What is my final format going to be??? Is it gonna have *.MOV extension????

                           

                          They won't show up in Presets; they'll appear under Video Codec on the Video tab. You would pick the Avid DNxHD Codec, and then click the Codec Settings button. From the "Resolutions" drop down, select the size and framerate of your source footage; there are different compression levels you can choose from in each category, each being progressive larger/less compressed. You can probably stick with the 8-bit options, as they 10-bit versions will just unneccesarily bloat the files. And yes, these are MOVs.

                           

                          That all said, if you try MPEG Streamclip, you can trim out the parts of the files you don't want and use the File > Save As option to save new versions out without any recompression whatsoever. Premiere, on the other hand, will always recompress.

                          • 10. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
                            SuperOperater Level 1

                            Colin, thnx to you I get it all cleared out!:)

                             

                            Maybe you can give me just one more recomendation:

                             

                            When using DNxHD codec, which preset would you suggest - my footage is 1080p...

                             

                            Would you go for 8bit 36 or 8bit 120....

                             

                            The 120 one gives 3 times bigger file (i guess these numbers are actual bitrate value!

                             

                            Thnx one more time for opening my eyes!:;)

                            • 11. Re: How to export edited 5D material into same Format
                              Colin Brougham Level 6

                              Ultimately, the decision is up to you, because it's what looks best. Technically speaking, though, the "120" version should look better than the "36" version; those digits translate to the bitrate of the codec at those settings. So, the "36" version is 36Mbps, whereas the "120" version is 120Mbps. This explains the three times greater filesizes of the DNxHD 120 version.

                               

                              Now--I don't have 5D material to check--but the T2i material I have is somewhere in the ballpark of 45-50Mbps, so it would seem that compressing to a 36Mbps stream is going to trash your video. This may not be the case, though--DNxHD is good at preserving detail, even at the "offline" varieties. Typically, the 36Mbps variety (or any of the DNxHD varities with the "low" number) would be used for offline editing at full resolution/full raster. Later, you'd recapture or retransfer your media at one of the "online" compression levels.

                               

                              Test it for yourself by exporting one of your clips at the various compression levels, and reimporting them into your project. Lay them on top of the original footage, and toggle them on and off to compare against the original. The 120Mbps version should be virtually identical; there will likely be some shifts in the 36Mbps version, but it might not be different enough to be a problem to you. You'll have to be the judge

                               

                              Check out the DNxHD webpage for more information about the codecs, if you want more scientific detail

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