1 2 Previous Next 74 Replies Latest reply on Jan 21, 2011 9:35 AM by Scott Chichelli

    To i7 or not to i7?

    M.T.Pilot

      Hi,

       

      I'm looking to buy a new computer for both music production and CS4 (CS5?) use. I figured I'd go with a fast system including an i7 processor. However, I found that quite a lot of people have problems with i7 systems, be they DELLs, HPs or MACs.


      http://www.zdnet.com/blog/hardware/hp-silent-on-core-i7-based-elite-pavilion-pc-problems/5 624
      http://discussions.apple.com/thread.jspa?threadID=2420192&start=0&tstart=0

       

      I contacted a local computer shop owner (HP re-seller), and he  adviced me not to buy a computer with an i7 processor at all, at this  point. He said they were brought on the marked with too much haste and  too little "finetuning" to make sure the i7 works well with motherboards  and other hardware components.

       

      (I'm not sure yet if the same thing goes for i5).

       

      Any thoughts on this?

        • 1. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
          John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Find a different shop

           

          Read the results at Premiere Pro CS5 Benchmark http://ppbm5.com/ to see what works for video editing

           

          For ready made, go to http://www.adkvideoediting.com/

          • 2. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
            M.T.Pilot Level 1

            So, you are saying i7 is not the problem?

             

            (thanks for the links, checking them out now)

            • 3. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
              Harm Millaard Level 7

              If there is any problem, which I doubt, then it must be in the combination of i7 and Dell, HP or other similar brand names.

               

              HP and Dell are well known for their lacking BIOS, underrated PSU's, inability to overclock, vastly inflated prices, and a lot of other deficiencies.

               

              There is nothing wrong with an i7 system, if properly configured, but this requires some expertise of the reseller, and IMO most of them are severely lacking the basic expertise and knowledge to build a video machine.The exceptions that do have the expertise, knowledge and service orientation for a successful NLE machine are rare. http://www.adkvideoediting.com/ is one of the very few companies that really know what they are talking about and they are miles apart from the nitwits at HP or Dell.

               

              I don't know what alternative your reseller would advise, it could either be a dual Xeon 56xx at at least double the price, or it could be an underspecced i3/i5 totally unsuitable for editing. One thing is sure, he does not know about the requirements for NLE and how to achieve a decent system for an acceptable price.

              • 4. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                No the I7 is not a problem. The problems most are running into have to do with the RAM, profiles stored on the ram and board, and the IC's that change so much now on the ram which is why mixing production runs cause issues. The I7 just made production more complicated because the memory controller is on the chip versus the board. So the I7 is fine. There are just some things you have to watch when you build and configure one

                 

                Eric

                ADK

                • 5. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                  Daxman1965 Level 1

                  good words Harm,

                   

                  if you stay in the USA,  ADK is the way to go. I stay in South Africa and Eric sorted my machine in no time at all.

                   

                  Darren

                  • 6. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                    Sethi_Xzon

                    Apple- No surprise there; they weren't even the main target therefore it's likely less or even minimum testing was done while developing the processors.

                     

                    For the other brands, it's probably the fact that most brands such as HP and Dell ship their computers with very weak PSUs, for instance I've seen an i7 HP Elite with a 250 watt power supply.

                    • 7. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                      I think you'll find a good amount of the professionals who frequent these boards are using an i7 chip in their edit rigs.

                       

                      Right now, the i7 950 is probably still one of the best bang-for-the-buck choices out there.

                      • 8. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                        M.T.Pilot Level 1

                        Thanks a lot for all replies!

                         

                        @Harm Millaard - the reseller, strangely enough, did not suggest an alternative at all. I asked him myself (through e-mail) and have yet to receive an answer... Anyway, I checked out http://www.adkvideoediting.com/ as both you and John suggested, and I'm sorry to say (Eric) I currently don't have the budget for the better quality hardware/computer that ADK is selling. The price of an ADK-comp with similar (but better quality) specs is about 2x the price of an HP/DELL-model. This makes me prety sad, because it means that within my current budget ($1000-1500), it seems I can only get the crappy consumer-stuff...

                         

                        @Sethi_Xzon - I contacted HP earlier and asked them about the PSU ("will it be adapted to the needs of changes due customizing the model"). They assured me they do that. Yet, I've been in contact with them several times with simple technical questions and did not get the idea they knew what they were talking about, most of the times.

                         

                        Thanks again for all the info given (Eric, Darren and Jim as well!), appreciated.

                        • 9. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                          John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          For video editing, you might want to save up until you can afford a "real" video editing computer... not a mass market model from HP/Dell

                           

                          But, I build my own, so it has been a LONG time since I had to deal with a mass market brand

                          • 10. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                            M.T.Pilot Level 1

                            The trouble is, my current computer is acting up ina bad way, forcing me to buy a new computer a.s.a.p. (unless I am able to get the computer running reliably again).

                            • 11. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                              Jim_Simon Level 8
                              within my current budget ($1000-1500), it seems I can only get the crappy consumer-stuff...

                               

                              Build your own.  That budget is plenty.

                               

                              http://www.newegg.com/

                              • 13. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                If you do decide to build your own, My CS5/AVCHD 1st Impressions http://forums.adobe.com/thread/652694?tstart=0 includes a link to the computer I built... since the GTX 285 is no longer sold, I would now go with a newer GTX card... maybe the 460

                                • 14. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                  M.T.Pilot Level 1

                                  Thanks a lot Jim and John.

                                   

                                  I would have liked to build my own system, but there are a couple of "buts".

                                   

                                  1) I live on a small Caribbean island, and have to import everything. (Local computer stores are unreasonably expensive and do not carry a wide variety of products). Importing items from the US is always a hassle. Newegg.com (like most other online US shops) does not want customers with non-US-issued credit cards. Also, I spoke to someone in the US who had just build his own system, together with a friend, and he told me it was kind of essential or at least extremely handy to have a suitable, well priced computer store near by, when busy building your own system, so that if you need an additional part or a replacement for whatever reason, you don't have to wait at least a week for it to arrive.

                                   

                                  2) I have no experience building my own computer and know no one who does (apart from the local computer stores, who are gonna want always too much money for assisting me.. small market, you know...). I have no problems with putting together the hardware, physically, as this is pretty streight forward, I suppose. (I just took out all hardware from my faulty computer and put it in another casing. Seating a processor and applying the grey conductor "flued" between the processor and its heatsink is not a problem either). But when it comes to the bios and other settings, I have no clue.

                                   

                                  So, I'm not sure if the BIY-route is one for me, under the circumstances.

                                  • 15. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                    Jim_Simon Level 8

                                    1) might be a problem.  Living in the US, I've no idea what Newegg's out of country policies are.  But there are also ZipZoomFly and Tiger Direct to consider, as well as others.  If it's worth saving the money, there's got to be a way to make it work.  Just do your research.

                                     

                                    2) shouldn't be.  Most settings you can leave at their default values and get things to work.  The mobo manual should also have a detailed description of all the BIOS settings.  The most critical part of a self-build is seating the CPU and fan.  If you can do that with confidence, you're 90% of the way there.

                                    • 16. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                      M.T.Pilot Level 1

                                      @1) Checking out ZipZoomFly and Tiger Direct.

                                       

                                      @2) What is supposed to be difficult about seating the CPU and fan?

                                       

                                      I looked at your suggested hardware, and assume that those are all compatible with eachother, right? Because, that is another thing: I have no idea what hardware works well together and what doesn't. Should I go for self building after all, I probably want to change one or two things of your suggested list of hardware.

                                      • 17. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                        John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        #2 is not really "difficult" other than the small pins on the CPU are very easy to bend if you do not get the CPU set correctly... I find it easy to do, but I am always VERY careful to look at the pin pattern and make sure I have the "blank corner" on the CPU underside put on the proper corner of the base

                                         

                                        Then, when putting the heat transfer paste on the top of the CPU just follow the instructions so you get enough but not too much, and push/twist the fan pins on the 4 corners so they lock into place... you will VERY quickly know if you did not get a good heat sink to CPU contact, since the Bios of any modern motherboard will flash a warning and shut the system off if the CPU begins to overheat

                                         

                                        The stock CPU cooler is OK if you are not going to overclock... but even though I do NOT overclock, I bought a better cooler to keep the CPU temp well below any danger levels (video editing and especially transcoding to go to disc is VERY intensive work for the CPU)

                                         

                                        I'm not where I can see the entire message thread, so just ignore if I already posted the link to what I built... http://forums.adobe.com/thread/652694?tstart=0 includes a link to the computer I built... since the GTX 285 is no longer sold, I would now go with a current GTX model that is cooler and quieter and faster, like the GTX 460

                                        • 18. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                                          Should I go for self building after all, I probably want to change one or two things of your suggested list of hardware.

                                           

                                          Post up what you want to swap out.  I'm sure someone here will have an opinion on it.

                                          • 19. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                            M.T.Pilot Level 1

                                            Well, first off, $1600 is above my budget. I'm thinking max $1500 (including transportation costs of probably around $150).

                                             

                                            And, I'm not sure about the SPARKLE vid-card.

                                             

                                            http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814187128

                                             

                                            I figured nvidia might be a better quality brand?

                                             

                                             

                                            Apart from that, I have no idea about the MoBo. Is that a good quality MoBo with the right BIOS? (I'm not planning on overclocking).

                                             

                                            http://images.highspeedbackbone.net/SKUimages/gallery/large/A455-2996-call05-ro.jpg

                                             

                                            The vid-card goes into one of the PCIe x16 slots and then I'll be needing a (normal) PCI slot for my M-audio 2496 soundcard (I'll be using the computer for both video and music production). There are two PCI slots, which seem not to be aligned, and flipped horizontally, strangely enough... I think I need to use the upper for my soundcard. Does that in any way pose a problem for fitting the vidcard?

                                             

                                            (In one of the reviews I read: "Same issue with most boards though. Put in a reasonalbly sized video card in and lose a pci slot. Guess it can't be helped.")

                                            • 20. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                              John T Smith Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              I am not positive about ALL nVidia cards that support hardware MPE, but as far as I know from every one that I've seen, these nVidia cards take up TWO slots due to the cooling fan attached to the card

                                               

                                              So, a card like the GTX 460 will go in the "top" PCI-16 slot and the regular PCI slot next door will be covered and not usable

                                               

                                              I will GUESS that a GTX 460 could go in the "bottom" PCI-16 slot and some other PCI card could go above, in the PCI slot between the two PCI-16 slots

                                              • 21. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                I use that Sparkle video card.  It works a charm, even for Premiere Pro's CUDA processing.  I can definitely recommend it.

                                                 

                                                I've not used that mobo yet, but it is the one I'll be buying shortly.  (I like Asus.)

                                                 

                                                There are two PCIe x16 slots, and two PCI slots.  The GPU does take up two spaces, but with the mobo's layout, I expect you'll find they both fit.

                                                • 22. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                  M.T.Pilot Level 1

                                                  Thanks John and Jim!

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Both of you do not seemed to be sure if both the s/card and the v/card will fit in this mobo.

                                                   

                                                  I will GUESS that...
                                                  I expect you'll find...

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Anyway, I'll still have to find a way to lower the costs, should I go self-built...

                                                  • 23. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                    Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                    My only uncertainty is with the physical dimension of the other card.  I've never seen it.

                                                    • 24. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                      M.T.Pilot Level 1

                                                      http://www.beatcontrol.co.uk/images/T/audiophile2496.jpg

                                                       

                                                      dimensions/weight: 13 x 12.7 x 14.9 cm - 0.09  kg

                                                      • 25. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                        Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                        It'll fit.


                                                        • 26. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                          M.T.Pilot Level 1

                                                          I might have to start all-over with checking out what system would be smart to put together/buy now that the Sandy Bridge CPUs are out...

                                                           

                                                          the Intel Core i7-2600K (or even the i5-2500K) seems a much better buy than the older i7-CPU (apart from the too expensive i7-980X Extreme Ed. CPU, in cases of heavily multi-threaded applications).

                                                           

                                                          http://www.bit-tech.net/hardware/cpus/2011/01/03/intel-sandy-bridge-review/13

                                                          • 27. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                            Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                            I don't know.  Given the limited feature set of the first round of SB CPUs, I still think the 950 is the better choice.  The feature rich SB mobos won't be out for about a year.

                                                            • 28. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                              Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                              i7-8xx is succeeded by Sandy Bridge. Great news for i7-8xx owners, who now have a fast alternative.

                                                               

                                                              i7-9xx will be succeeded by Sandy Bridge E. Great news for i7-9xx owners, who will have a fast alternative.

                                                               

                                                              When the i7-8xx came out, people wanted to get the latest and the newest, but it was always advised not to go that route, because of the limitations of the platform, P55. Look where the first i7-8xx ends up in the PPBM5 Benchmark

                                                               

                                                              Now history repeats itself. People want to get the latest and newest Sandy Bridge, and admitted the SB performs much better than the i7-8xx, but the same limitations of the P55, that made it ill suited for video editing, are all applicable to the P67 as well, making it ill suited for video editing.

                                                               

                                                              Things will change dramatically with the new SB-E and X68 platform. To show some of the main distiniguishing factors:

                                                               

                                                              Feature
                                                              i7-8xx
                                                              Sandy Bridge
                                                              i7-9xx
                                                              Sandy Bridge E
                                                              CPUQuad core (4 + HT)Quad core (4 + HT)Quad/hexa core (4/6 + HT)Octo core (8 + HT)
                                                              Memory

                                                              Dual channel

                                                              2 x DDR3-1333

                                                              Dual channel

                                                              2 x DDR3-1333

                                                              Triple channel

                                                              3 x DDR3-1333

                                                              Quad channel

                                                              4 x DDR3-1600

                                                              Memory bandwidth peak21.3 GB/s51.2 GB/s
                                                              DIMM slots44612
                                                              Memory capacity with 4 GB modules16 GB16 GB24 GB48 GB
                                                              PCI-e lanes20203640
                                                              PCI-e version2.02.02.03.0
                                                              Dedicated Raid controllerNANAYesYes
                                                              L3 cache8 MB8 MB8 / 12 MB20 MB

                                                               

                                                              When a new version CPU comes out, it does not mean that older versions are dead. There are still a lot of 775 CPU's sold, despite the fact that 1366 CPU's have been around for years. These 775 CPU's still have their use for certain applications and do a great job at that.

                                                               

                                                              As is clear from the table above the SB is a nice evolution, but the revolution starts with the SB-E. Untill that time the i7-9xx is still the best option. I know that Scott and I differ on that, but I predict that the SB will end up in the benchmark lists in comparison to the SB-E in the same way the i7-8xx ends up now in comparison to the i7-9xx.

                                                               

                                                              The Sandy Bridge E/Waimea will double about everything compared to the Sandy Bridge: double the cores, triple the memory, double the PCI-e lanes, more than double the L3 cache and PCI-e Gen 3.0

                                                               

                                                              Waimea bay, the X68 platform, is worth looking out for.

                                                              • 29. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                Scott Chichelli Level 3

                                                                and until Dec when theSandy bridge 1366  replacement comes out

                                                                present Sandy bridge kills the X58.

                                                                 

                                                                so buy the new sandy bridge now or wait nearly a year..

                                                                 

                                                                Scott

                                                                ADK

                                                                • 30. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                  Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                                  Scott,

                                                                   

                                                                  I have told you again and again the 920 is faster than the 2600K by a significant margin at the same clock speed. Why do you keep repeating false facts?

                                                                   

                                                                  I'm getting tired of your false arguments and unsubstantiated claims. What is faster 245 or 166 seconds?

                                                                  • 31. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                    Scott Chichelli Level 3

                                                                    stock 950 274  ranked 44th

                                                                    stock 2600 186 ranked 14th

                                                                     

                                                                    you were saying?

                                                                     

                                                                    stock 2600 is 14th

                                                                    again remove the xeons and OCed processors and the STOCK 2600 is #1

                                                                     

                                                                    you are only debating with your own benchmarks..

                                                                    • 32. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                      Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                                      Incorrect, there are no stock 2600K results submitted, I asked Eric to do that.

                                                                       

                                                                      The 2600K comes out at 245, the 920 at 166.

                                                                      • 33. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                        Scott Chichelli Level 3

                                                                        Uh Harm,

                                                                         

                                                                        please show me the STOCK 920 thats getting 166? or a 980 for that matter..

                                                                         

                                                                        and again the STOCK 2600 is at 186

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        ADKIPDVC570

                                                                         

                                                                        ADK

                                                                         

                                                                        IPDVC

                                                                         

                                                                        D9       186.0

                                                                         

                                                                        D9          141.4

                                                                         

                                                                        Q3        77.0

                                                                         

                                                                        D9        31.0

                                                                         

                                                                        Q3        72.0

                                                                         

                                                                        Q3          6.0

                                                                         

                                                                        Q3        82.0

                                                                         

                                                                        Q3         6.0

                                                                         

                                                                        13.7 X

                                                                         

                                                                        Intel

                                                                         

                                                                        i7-2600K

                                                                         

                                                                        (OC) 3.9

                                                                         

                                                                        1

                                                                         

                                                                        4

                                                                         

                                                                        16 

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        the 245 you keep referencing is with a different video card nice of you to try to pull that off

                                                                         

                                                                        is the same speed as the one above with a 570..

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        Scott

                                                                        • 34. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                          Harm Millaard Level 7

                                                                          Scott,

                                                                           

                                                                          Compare systems that have half their memory capacity filled, not one at full capacity and the other at half.

                                                                           

                                                                          So the 245 compares to the 166. BOTH overclocked. Intel specs with turbo can not increase more than 100 MHz per bin on multithreaded applications.

                                                                          • 35. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                            Hehe thanks allot Harm, trying to get me in trouble

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            I will try and get you the default turbo settings results asap. However we are not shipping them that way. We are shipping with the turbo at 3.9.

                                                                            The 3.9 is technically overclocked only because the default turbo is 3.8. There is not much you have to change for that.

                                                                             

                                                                            Eric

                                                                            ADK

                                                                            • 36. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                              Scott Chichelli Level 3

                                                                              Harm

                                                                              you better read up on turbo with SB.. you are very wrong...

                                                                               

                                                                              i am sorry

                                                                              but thats the dumbest thing i have ever heard. compare systems @ 1/2 capacity of ram.. like memory matter so much..

                                                                              but fine lets remove your 12 drive raid array and put a 460 video card in your 920 as well...

                                                                               

                                                                              i am absoultely blown away by how you have been acting toward Sandy Bridge and the facts put forth to you including your own benchmarks suite.

                                                                               

                                                                              you have attempted to twist anything and everything to support your stance

                                                                               

                                                                              are you that bad a curmudgen you cant recant and say

                                                                              " well now that the facts have been presented i may have been wrong about sandy bridge" ?

                                                                              honestly it wont hurt near as bad as you think..

                                                                               

                                                                              i had to eat crow on sandy bridge myself.... as when we first tested it (2300) it sucked and i said so in public forums..

                                                                               

                                                                              from our benchmarks which is real workflow  for most on this forum not a synthetic test. showing 8-16 gig dont mean diddly..

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              both stock speeds and the 16 gig sytem even had a better video card..

                                                                               

                                                                              Premiere Pro CS5 Version 5.0.3 Testing

                                                                              I7 2600 3.4GHZ Turbo to 3.9GHz

                                                                              8GB Blackline 1600 CL 9

                                                                              460GTX

                                                                              4 WD 1Tb Sata 64 Meg Cache 600 Drives in 2 Raid 0 arrays

                                                                              Video material - AVCHD 1080P 24 Frame Each Cut to 30 minutes of material

                                                                              Export Codec - H264 HDTV 1080P 24 Preset Default

                                                                              4 Effects per Layer - Fast Color Corrector, Brightness & Contrast, Video Limiter, Sharpen

                                                                              Each Layer Scaled to 50% for 4 frame PinP view.

                                                                              3 Layer - 37:35

                                                                              4 Layer - 40:49

                                                                               

                                                                              16GB Blackline 1600 CL 9

                                                                              570GTX

                                                                              3 Layer - 36:17

                                                                              4 Layer - 40:05

                                                                              Scott

                                                                              ADK

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              • 37. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                                EstebanMartin

                                                                                Hey friends !!

                                                                                 

                                                                                what i think when i come to this forum, i needed help to setup a pc to edit dslr footage whit maximum 2 drives like the 90% around outside and I see,

                                                                                 

                                                                                you are discussing about technical...

                                                                                 

                                                                                 

                                                                                sandy bridge is a fact, if you have the posibility in to use it at 4.7 why not to use it ?  What people wants is DONT WASTE MONEY...

                                                                                 

                                                                                please still focused in THAT !!!   90% people goes with low budget 10% goes whit a macpro/980x/xeons but they dont think about 950/2600k

                                                                                 

                                                                                2600k is a fact to everybody.

                                                                                 

                                                                                 

                                                                                This is perfect to me, it was what I expected about this system... maybe in next year I will go whit SB-E....

                                                                                • 38. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                                  Jim_Simon Level 8
                                                                                  lets remove your 12 drive raid array and put a 460 video card in your 920 as well...

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I can actually offer that, as that is precisely what I have.  I'll see if I can get the benchmark run in the next couple of days.

                                                                                  • 39. Re: To i7 or not to i7?
                                                                                    Scott Chichelli Level 3

                                                                                    thanks Jim..

                                                                                    frankly we dont have an 950 builds coming up (and no stock on 950s, used to be 10 on the shelf at all times)

                                                                                    as we are steering everyone to the SB other than High end users..

                                                                                    i do have a 975 but i think Eric is sick of running tests

                                                                                    its been a crazy few weeks with this release.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    thanks

                                                                                    scott

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