31 Replies Latest reply on Jan 12, 2011 6:47 AM by Noel Carboni

    No Scroll Bars

    Noel Carboni Level 7

      I was working in Camera Raw last night, and it dawned on me that there's a blatently missing UI elementScroll Bars.

       

      Specifically, when the image is larger than the display area, there are no scroll bars.  Yes, I realize there's the Pan (hand) tool, but scroll bars serve another function - they allow you to move the image no matter what tool is selected.

       

      Why are there no scroll bars in Camera Raw?  Is it possible I'm missing a setting somewhere that makes them visible?

       

      If the answer is "the scroll bars were omitted because it cleans up the display", then my answer is that they are missed by people expecting them to be available, because they are available in virtually every other modern plug-in.  Scroll bars are a staple of the GUI.

       

      In my particular case, I was looking to move the image a little so I could see what was off-screen to the upper right while I had the white balance dropper selected.  I didn't really want to have to switch to the pan tool, then switch back.  And I even tried Ctrl, Shift, and Alt...  No combination of modifier keys temporarily enabled the Pan tool, though I finally noticed that the space bar does so.  I suppose that's more or less expected behavior, but scroll bars are better - they serve other purposes as well.  For example, active scroll bars serve as an obvious visual indicator that there's more image beyond the edge that you can't see (not to mention how much).

       

      NoScrollBars.jpg

       

      -Noel

        • 1. Re: No Scroll Bars
          Ian Lyons MVP & Adobe Community Professional

           

           

          If the answer is "the scroll bars were omitted because it cleans up the display", then my answer is that they are missed by people expecting them to be available, because they are available in virtually every other modern plug-in.  Scroll bars are a staple of the GUI.


           

           

          So, you been using Camera Raw for how long? And only today figure this oh so essential UI element is missing

          • 2. Re: No Scroll Bars
            Hudechrome Level 2

            That makes two of us!

             

            Seriously, I've always felt that ACR was damned cramped. It's a relief to move into PS. From that POV, I hope a future PS has the Adjustment Brush...on steroids! Then I'll spend less time in ACR.

            • 3. Re: No Scroll Bars
              Jeff Schewe Level 5

              Ian Lyons wrote:

               

              So, you been using Camera Raw for how long? And only today figure this oh so essential UI element is missing

               

               

              LOL....yeah I was just thinking that :~)

               

              Fact is, Camera Raw is locked into a minimum display size of 1024 x 768. So, ALL UI elements MUST fit inside that area...do you really want to loose screen real estate for scroll bars? I sure don't...unless Adobe can raise the minimum display size.

               

              Point in fact, I usually zoom in and use the Home and End keys to get to the top left or lower right and then use page down or up to move through the image. If you start at the Home key, you can page down and when ACR gets to the bottom it'll automatically move over a column and start from the top. In that way you can move throughout the image and examine zoomed in even with ACR at it's minimum screen display size.

              • 4. Re: No Scroll Bars
                Level 4

                I found that very amusing too.  I noticed the absence of the scroll bars from day one, back in ACR 2.x, the first version of ACR I ever used, but didn't mind it one bit.

                 

                Now here's someone who's getting all worked up over the missing scroll bars—which he noticed just now, even though he deems the scroll bars indispensable.

                 

                Give us a break, Mr. Carboni. 

                 

                 

                ____________

                Wo Tai Lao Le

                我太老了

                • 5. Re: No Scroll Bars
                  Hudechrome Level 2

                  Some day I'll learn all those hot keys.

                   

                  Some day....

                   

                  Nice tips. Thank you, Jeff.

                  • 6. Re: No Scroll Bars
                    Hudechrome Level 2

                    Some of us are slow learners!

                    • 7. Re: No Scroll Bars
                      Level 4

                      Hudechrome wrote:

                       

                      … hope a future PS has the Adjustment Brush...on steroids!

                       

                      You could have fooled me.  I thought the Adjustment Brush in ACR was an attempt to make up for Ps features like the History Brush and Layer Masks.

                       

                      Unless you show me the contrary, I can't think of anything you can do with the adjustment brush that cannot be replicated in Ps by the History Brush.  (Make your global adjustment, make a snapshot which you then target with the history brush, go back one step in History, paint your adjustments with the History Brush in the blend mode and opacity of your choice.)  It takes less than a tenth of the time it took me to type the text in italics.

                       

                      I wish the ACR adjustment Brush were as powerful and versatile. 

                       

                       

                       

                      ____________

                      Wo Tai Lao Le

                      我太老了

                      • 8. Re: No Scroll Bars
                        Noel Carboni Level 7

                        Heckle all you want, it just makes you look silly.

                         

                        I never took the time before now to de-focus from what I was trying to accomplish to analyze why the plug-in was more difficult to use than it should be.

                         

                        Including all the necessary, expected, and useful elements of the GUI trumps any lame screen real estate argument you could possibly put forth.

                         

                        Virtually all other apps (except some of the older brain-damaged plug-ins) have scroll bars for a reason.

                         

                        By your reasoning, you have *just enough* screen space without a what, 16 pixel wide scroll bar at the right, but you just wouldn't have enough if that small extra space wasn't taken?  There's already room at the bottom; all one has to do is use the space next to the zoom tools - JUST LIKE ALL THE OTHER MODERN PLUG-INS DO.

                         

                        But let's look closely, shall we?  The default "fit in window" function already wastes a scroll bar worth of space already anyway, and hey, that bottom border where the image name now resides is at least 1.5 times too tall.  MORE THAN ENOUGH SPACE for scroll bars.

                         

                        Are you honestly trying to argue that the first of the two minimum-sized dialogs depicted below is showing fundamentally more image info than the second?

                         

                        Camera Raw as it is now:

                        ACRMinDialogNow.jpg

                         

                        Proposed Camera Raw with Scroll Bars:

                        ACRMinDialogWithScrollBars.jpg

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 9. Re: No Scroll Bars
                          Hudechrome Level 2

                          The History Brush brushes back, the Adjustment Brush can brush in. I use the History Brush all the time and I don't see it in the same capacity as the Adjustment. In fact, there is no History available in ACR, which makes that brush much more awkward, in that you cannot roll back more than one step, That's why I want it in PS, where I can roll back through successive steps without having to clear out the entire run. I also want to have the fade feature. I want to brush in sharpness. I can add it in PS then brush out only.

                           

                          Anyway, we are OT here.

                          • 10. Re: No Scroll Bars
                            Jeff Schewe Level 5

                            Noel Carboni wrote:

                             

                            Heckle all you want, it just makes you look silly.

                             

                             

                            I am silly...that's why I have a lot of fun...the key is: I don't mind looking/being silly. Do you? Maybe you take yourself too seriously...

                             

                            Look, is having scroll bars a mission critical issue rivaling image quality, lens corrections or local adjustments?

                             

                            No...they are subtle things that may or may not have an impact on usability. The fact is, you've used ACR for a while and just now discovered there are no scroll bars. What does that tell you? You want them, put a post in the Feature Wish list...(but the odds aren't really, really great you'll get them).

                             

                            EDIT: oh, I notice you DID post in the wish list...good for you.

                            • 11. Re: No Scroll Bars
                              Hudechrome Level 2

                              The odds aren't great to get anything specific!

                              • 12. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                Noel Carboni Level 7
                                function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                Jeff Schewe wrote:


                                I don't mind looking/being silly. Do you?

                                 

                                What's that, a rhetorical question?   You know me.    In all seriousness, I don't mind telling it like it is.

                                 

                                Ever live a long time with a nagging pain then finally be rid of it?  Was it okay just because you learned to live with it?

                                 

                                Remember when every car had a carburetor?  Now they don't, because someone created something better.

                                 

                                Seems to me that this is something Adobe can do to make Camera Raw 7.0 clearly and obviously better than ever.  Adobe often likes to change the UI just to give software a new and improved feel.  This just happens to have substance too.

                                 

                                Hey, send some contract work my way if you guys can't implement scroll bars.

                                 

                                -Noel

                                 

                                 

                                P.S., I don't take myself too seriously.  I do often take other people less so, though.

                                • 13. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                  Manovi Level 1

                                  Noel

                                   

                                  Scroll bars are not included in ACR and LR because they are part of the O.S. UI, so they can assume some strange colors and tones based on the O.S. present color theme. These "colored bars" would distract the eye from evaluate correctly the image. If You look, all the ACR UI is crafted to minimize colored background and tones. Thomas Knoll build it that way, because of that. And I really have no problems using keyboard or the "hand" to scroll the image.

                                   

                                  May be that scroll bars could became an "option" to be activated, but I don't think could add anything to the usability of ACR.

                                   

                                  Happy New Year!

                                   

                                  Massimo

                                  • 14. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                                    Thanks for your opinions.  You may not feel you miss the scroll bars, but I'll bet you'd use 'em if you had 'em.

                                     

                                    Keep in mind that all the UI elements in Photoshop are crafted by Adobe (so they can compile the code for both Windows and OSX), so they need not be influenced by the operating system theme.  In fact, Adobe essentially ignores the OS theme all over Photoshop now.

                                     

                                    Regarding whether they could add usability, well, it's pretty clear that the rest of the Photoshop team believes them to be useful - just look at any of the modern Plug-ins:

                                     

                                    • Lens Correction
                                    • Liquify
                                    • Vanishing Point
                                    • Merge to HDR Pro

                                     

                                    Even some older ones offer scroll bars:

                                     

                                    • Spherize
                                    • Polar Coordinates

                                     

                                    I'm sure there are more.

                                     

                                    Taking this one step further, one can point out that the Filter Gallery function, a relatively recent wrapper for some very old plug-ins that didn't originally have scroll bars, now offers scroll bars.

                                     

                                    Product consistency would be nice.

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 15. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                      Yammer Level 4

                                      I've had a good chuckle reading this thread. After several years, Noel suddenly realises there are no scroll bars in ACR, and all of a sudden they're indispensible!

                                       

                                      By all means, make them an optional addition, but please don't shrink the image working space for something I've never missed either. I'm a Ctrl-0 and Ctrl-Space-Click-Drag man myself

                                       

                                      Thanks for the keyboard tips, Jeff.

                                      • 16. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                        Hudechrome Level 2

                                        Distract the eye?

                                         

                                        In order fro me to properly evaluate the image, in Photoshop, I have to maximize the image first, then decrease magnification to get a slightly off white surround because the frame is not symmetrical, and dealing with proportions with respect to the outside world is impossible otherwise.

                                         

                                        It was not always that way, and when it changed, I raised the issue, and was told essentially to live with it. So if "they" are so all fired concerned lest we go astray in the proper evaluation of the image contents, "they" (whomever "they" are) would have paid attention.

                                         

                                        At any rate, tradeoffs are a fact of life so I deal with all the peccadilloes in my own way, which means that sometimes, I simply abandon the program. With PS, I didn't have to and turned the problem into a silk purse.

                                         

                                        Some of these concerns also reside in ACR, and the appearance of scroll bars would exacerbate that, but I do not crop in ACR so  I can safely ignore the visual influence.

                                         

                                        While the key method has it's advantages, the appearance of tools in ACR like the adjustment brush requires pin point positioning and movement, which can be done with the hand tool, but that is awkward. So, I vote for scroll bars, as an option at least.

                                         

                                        And while we are at it, give me a History palette with that brush! Or give me that capability in PS.

                                        • 17. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                          Vit Novak Level 3

                                          Well, I was living with the hand tool even before ACR (in Auto CAD) and would't say that it is awkward ...

                                          Anyway, almost all programs have scrool bars, so maybe it would be good to add them as an option

                                          • 18. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                            Noel Carboni Level 7
                                            function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                            Vit Novak wrote:


                                            Well, I was living with the hand tool ... and would't say that it is awkward ...

                                             

                                            Speaking of which...  In Photoshop proper we have (since CS4) the "flick panning" feature, where OpenGL facilitates tossing the image around smoothly and with inertia.

                                             

                                            BUT...  Not in ACR.

                                             

                                            Again we see inconsistency.

                                             

                                            -Noel

                                            • 19. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                              Noel Carboni Level 7
                                              function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                              Yammer P wrote:


                                              I've had a good chuckle reading this thread. After several years, Noel suddenly realises there are no scroll bars in ACR, and all of a sudden they're indispensible!

                                               


                                              Glad to help bring a smile to your day. 

                                               

                                              Have you never overemphasized something just to get a point across? 

                                               

                                              -Noel

                                              • 20. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                Manovi Level 1

                                                Photoshop, even in CS5 release, keeps for the scrollbars image window the Windows current color theme. Try and see.

                                                 

                                                Only some of the UI gadgets are handcrafted by Adobe. Not all of them.

                                                 

                                                Plugins often uses scrollbars because most of them have quite small windows in their fixed size interface. Anyway Photoshop is not ACR, so because PS uses scrollbars, others items (i.e. plugins) are "allowed" to use them.

                                                 

                                                ACR is an "applet" by itself.

                                                 

                                                Massimo

                                                • 21. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                  Noel Carboni Level 7
                                                  function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                  Manovi wrote:


                                                  Plugins often uses scrollbars because most of them have quite small windows in their fixed size interface.

                                                   

                                                  Heh heh, have you actually used a Photoshop plug-in?  Of the first set I listed above, all have resizable windows.

                                                   

                                                  function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                  Manovi wrote:


                                                  ACR is an "applet" by itself.

                                                   

                                                  LOL, now that's just plain funny! 

                                                   

                                                  Define "applet" please, and how it's differentiated from "plug-in".

                                                   

                                                  ACR_Is_A_Plug-in.jpg

                                                   

                                                  -Noel

                                                  • 22. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                    Manovi Level 1

                                                    "Anyway Photoshop is not ACR, so because PS uses scrollbars, others items (i.e. plugins) are "allowed" to use them."

                                                     

                                                    Even in "not small windows plugins"...

                                                     

                                                    Applet? Yes, it's a little different term from plugin.

                                                     

                                                    It's only more "amusing" for me to call ACR a "small application hosted by someone" Java simil-name...

                                                     

                                                    If You like scrollbars, next CS6 beta testing Forum will be the right place to ask for them.

                                                     

                                                    Cheers

                                                     

                                                    Massimo

                                                    • 23. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                      Noel Carboni Level 7
                                                      function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                      Manovi wrote:


                                                      Applet? Yes, it's a little different term from plugin.

                                                       

                                                      English?  Yes, it's a little different from what you're writing. 

                                                       

                                                      In all seriousness, the term "plug-in" has specific meaning, as defined by the Photoshop SDK.  Considering ACR not a plug-in but an "applet" is some kind of mental abstraction you seem to have created - because of its perceived complexity(?) - but I don't see how it's really pertinent to the discussion.

                                                       

                                                      Consider that the people who created the Lens Correction or Liquify filters - including their almighty scroll bars - might disagree that their lowly "plug-ins" are somehow fundamentally inferior to the great Camera Raw "applet" that seems to have transcended the need to comply with mere Earthly UI standards. 

                                                       

                                                      I've already requested scroll bars in the right place, as noted earlier in this thread - the Camera Raw Features Request thread.

                                                       

                                                      Anyway, thanks for your thoughts, Massimo. 

                                                       

                                                      -Noel

                                                      • 24. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                        PBoehme Level 1

                                                        Very enteretaining and amusing thread.  I am surprised that the "experts" here apparently do not know this, but the answer  is super simple.  In order to slew the image when a tool such as the eyedropper is selected without the need to go to the hand tool is to simply hold down the space bar with your left hand finger of choice and the hand tool will then appear on the screen and then you can slew with the mouse with your right hand (if you are right handed).  Release the space bar and you are now back to the selected tool.  Is this simple solution that has been there all along sufficiently satisfactory or does it just simply have to be real estate hogging scroll bars?

                                                         

                                                        Paula

                                                        • 25. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                          Hudechrome Level 2

                                                          Some of us do know that, but we prefer alternative measures in which scroll bars play a part.

                                                          1 person found this helpful
                                                          • 26. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                            PBoehme Level 1

                                                            I just reread the original post and noticed that I overlooked the fact that Noel had discovered the space bar.  I certainly hope that if scroll bars are added that they can be turned off because there is already enough stuff occupying screen space.  If anything, I would like to see the feature that PS has where the "F" key and <TAB> can be used to remove everything from the screen.

                                                             

                                                            Paula

                                                            • 27. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                              Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                              Thanks for your input, Paula.

                                                               

                                                              I'll be the first to admit I'm not perfect, and apparently the missing scroll bars have been in a blind spot for me.  That I've figured out how to use Camera Raw up to now without them doesn't mean I need them less.  That I've right-clicked, chosen Fit In View, then used the zoom tool to see other parts of the image means I have just lost time (and concentration) that could have been saved.

                                                               

                                                              Scroll bars not only allow you to pan the image around but they give an indication of how much is being seen in the preview display vs. the whole image size.

                                                               

                                                              Can I continue to live without scroll bars?  Sure, but it's nice to have a rich user interface with multiple ways to get things done and providing additional information.  It's hard to imagine that anyone doesn't think so.

                                                               

                                                              function(){return A.apply(null,[this].concat($A(arguments)))}

                                                              PBoehme wrote:


                                                              real estate hogging scroll bars

                                                               

                                                              LOL, nice exaggeration.  And people say I'm being silly for requesting an essential UI element.

                                                               

                                                              Haven't I shown well enough that the space is already wasted in the current implementation?  I even put up pictures.

                                                               

                                                              -Noel

                                                              • 28. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                                JimHess-ra2Osl Level 3

                                                                I haven't taken the time to read this entire thread, so if this has been asked I apologize.  Assuming you are zoomed in on an image and want to move it around, is it really that difficult to hold down the spacebar and then while holding it down use the mouse to move the image around?  Your issue seems trivial to me.

                                                                • 29. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                  You should read the thread.

                                                                   

                                                                  I know how to pan around an image, or use the zoom tools to get it done.  Scroll bars provide both another way to move the image as well as a visual indication via thumb size of how much of the image is off-screen.

                                                                   

                                                                  Panning by holding the space bar down is Adobe-specific, and if you're used to using a lot of other apps that are decent enough to provide proper scroll bars, you might just not think of doing that.  And my space bar emits repeated clicks when I hold it down, which discourages its use as a modifier key.

                                                                   

                                                                  It's been nice that almost everyone who responded either pooh-poohed a perfectly reasonable request for a product improvement or made outright fun of me for making it.  Thanks for the pleasure.

                                                                   

                                                                  Jim, I've gone ahead and marked your note as the "answer", as I don't think there's much sense in having this thread live on.

                                                                   

                                                                  -Noel

                                                                  • 30. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                                    Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                    Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    It's been nice that almost everyone who responded either pooh-poohed a perfectly reasonable request for a product improvement or made outright fun of me for making it.  Thanks for the pleasure.

                                                                     

                                                                     

                                                                    Well, I think your original post was an over reaction as well as your last post. You could have simply phrased a question why there are no scroll bars and posted a request...instead you injected a bit more in your OP.

                                                                     

                                                                    BTW, how can we NOT react to the fact that after using ACR for years, you only just NOW discovered there are no scroll bars?

                                                                     

                                                                    Seriously, what did you really expect? I really thought it was funny...

                                                                     

                                                                    (still do in fact, sorry your feathers are ruffled–well, not TOO sorry mind you, just kinda sorry, well, ok, I'll admit I'm not sorry at all–heck you asked for it)

                                                                     

                                                                    :~)

                                                                     

                                                                    P.S. something about taking oneself too seriously comes to mind

                                                                    (sorry, couldn't resist)

                                                                    • 31. Re: No Scroll Bars
                                                                      Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                      No worries, I have a thick skin.  But thanks for keeping the stoning session alive a little longer. 

                                                                       

                                                                      -Noel