15 Replies Latest reply on Jan 24, 2011 7:44 AM by Fred K.

    sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please

    Fred K. Level 1

      Hi,

       

      Where can I find some good tutorial stuff (or other advices) about sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.

      My camera is a Panasonic DMC-FZ8.

      Adjustments like color / blacks / contrast I can "see" on my screen (I'm satisfied until now).

       

      But Noise and Sharpening..... "that is a different kettle of fish " .... I have problems with it ... complex....(my std JPG is better than the RAW-JPG).

        • 1. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
          Vit Novak Level 3

          You must zoom to at least 100% in ACR to view effects of sharpening and NR. Then, you can experiment with sliders

          • 2. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
            Fred K. Level 1

            Hi Vit Novak,

             

            Yes I know that! ... That is the way I see the little ajustments setting the sliders.

             

            But then still it is very complex and I am not satisfied.

            I have tried different ways to set the sliders .... but I am more confused.

            There is still a difference between JPG-std an RAW-JPG.

            • 3. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
              Keith_Reeder Level 4

              You're not telling us/showing us what the difference is - hard to diagnose a problem without knowing what the problem is.

               

              "It's different..." and "I'm not satisfied..." don't tell us much, really.

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                Noel Carboni Level 7

                I experimented for a LONG time before I found a combination of settings I liked for a default.  I even posted here that I thought the 2003 process might have been better for bringing out detail, though after even more experimentation now I don't think that was right.

                 

                What I did was actually process each of a number of images through from conversion to completion, using the techniques I would normally use to prep for a high detail print, including sharpening.  I then compared the final results to determine which control values seemed to give me a better starting point.

                 

                Interestingly, I ended up dialing in a LOT more luminance noise reduction than I had ever used for the 2003 process.  And I always convert to a higher pixel count than the native camera resolution (e.g., 17.5 MP for my 10.1 MP camera).

                 

                What I ended up with as defaults for the sharpening settings for my low ISO images are here:

                 

                SharpeningAndNRSettings.jpg

                 

                -Noel

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                  Fred K. Level 1

                  Hi Keith,

                   

                  Thanks for your reply.

                   

                  I have some examples for my problem (picture is made in Holland last december).

                  P1050118.JPG

                  above the Std Jpg image 1.5 Mb that is made in the same shot as the RAW

                   

                  P1050118-StdRaw.jpg

                  above the Std RAW image (no adjustments) via PS to JPGfile (compressed rate 9 to get < then 2MB)

                   

                  SreenShotStdJPG.jpg

                  above screenshotdetail of STD JPG

                   

                  SreenShotRAWJPG.jpg

                  above screenshotdetail of converted RAW to JPG (no adjustments)

                   

                  P1050118RAWJPGMod.jpg

                  above adjusted RAW file (converted to JPG)

                  adustments DETAIL only:

                  amount=25  /  Rad=1  /  Det=25  /  Mask=0  /  Lum=35  /  LumDet=50  /  LumContr=0  /  Color=25  /  ColDet=50

                   

                  P1050118RAWJPGMODMAIN.jpg

                  above adjusted RAW file (converted to JPG)

                  adustments DETAIL (as before) + mainTab-1:

                  Exp=0  /  Recovery=5  /  FillL=10  /  Blacks=5  /  Bright=+50  /  Contr=+25  (adj. made to remove the clipping (L+R))

                   

                  So........done this.... is seems that the StdJpg image is sharper than the RAWJPG.

                  When I sharpen more the RAW.... it becomes more grain (noise) back.... that is about my question.

                  • 6. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                    Noel Carboni Level 7
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                    Fred K. wrote:


                    SreenShotStdJPG.jpg

                    above screenshotdetail of STD JPG

                     

                    SreenShotRAWJPG.jpg

                    above screenshotdetail of converted RAW to JPG (no adjustments)

                     

                     

                    Fred, you're saying you like the look of your in-camera JPEG image, above, better than the detail level from the Raw converter?

                     

                    From where I sit the detail level of your raw conversion looks much finer and more natural, and will likely be able to stand more sharpening during processing in Photoshop.

                     

                    -Noel

                    • 7. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                      Peter DL Level 1

                      Fred, - for me it looks more like a difference in Contrast or Local contrast,
                      which are of course effecting the appearance of image details as well.


                      Peter

                       

                      --

                      • 8. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                        Noel Carboni Level 7

                        The in-camera JPEG images definitely have big, ugly USM haloes, and and quite a bit of luminance noise reduction.

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 9. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                          Fred K. Level 1

                          Hi Noel,

                           

                          I have tried your suggestions (sliders sharpen + noise)

                          P1050118RawJpgModMainNoel.jpg

                          amou=15  /  rad=0.5  /  det=100  /  mask=0  /  lum=40  /  Lumdet=100  /  luncont=0  /  col=0  /  coldet=0  (all in ACR)

                           

                          P1050118RawJpgModMainNoelVibr8.jpg

                          the same as last but (in RAW) vibrance +8

                           

                           

                          I am quit satisfied now....  may be the house a more sharpen....(because the house in StdJpg seems a bit sharper for me !?)

                           

                          P1050118RawJpgModMainNoelVibr8SelSharp20.jpg

                          the same as last but (in RAW) a selectively sharpen of + 20 of the horizon between the two branches of the trees

                           

                          ALL these images saved as JPG (comperssed rate 9.. that is 1.8MB .... if rate=12 than size=5.6MB)

                           

                          Please your comment.

                          • 10. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                            Noel Carboni Level 7

                            Your conversion looks very nice indeed; it's very beautiful.  I'd say without any reservation that your raw conversions are coming out better than the in-camera JPEGs in every way.

                             

                            One other thing I encourage you to try is to convert to an image size larger than the camera's native pixel count.  If your computer is up to the task of handling the larger images this technique can give you slightly better detail in your final prints, or make it possible to print a little larger.

                             

                            Is your desire to try to create a finished product from Camera Raw?  I ask because there are good techniques and sharpening tools available for Photoshop proper (i.e., after you have opened the image into Photoshop from Camera Raw).

                             

                            Camera Raw is not an end-all, not by a longshot if you want to turn your images into eye candy.

                             

                            Just to give you an idea of where you could take your image through some additional simple edits in Photoshop, including selectively increasing color saturation and some local contrast enhancement (similar to increasing the Clarity setting in Camera Raw), and sharpening, consider this edit of your raw conversion above...

                             

                            ProcessedJPEG.jpg

                             

                            -Noel

                            • 11. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                              Fred K. Level 1

                              Hi Noel,

                               

                              Thanks again.

                               

                              Indeed there is a difference between my last image and your image.

                              Honestly .... my image is a bit too flat (de saturated) ... and your image.... it seems to me a bit too much saturated (because it is a winterday and it was freezing about 10 degrees minus celsius.... so not a sunny shiny day).

                              But that you couldn't  know ... I know that because I made the picture.

                               

                              .... Convering to a larger pixel count...

                              Do you mean: in PS increase the image size? How is it about the conversion (eg  bicubic ....etc....  and lost of data because of interpolation ????)

                               

                              Working in ACR....

                              I have understand that it is better too do as much as possible in ACR.... because you are "talking" to the non-converted bits.

                              And also.... manipulating in PhotoShop makes the image larger.

                              So .... you are right .... that it was my goal to do (much) in ACR..... and less in PS.

                               

                              So for now ... with your suggestions ... I can continue.
                              Thanks for so far!

                               

                              Fred

                              • 12. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                                Noel Carboni Level 7

                                You have put your finger on one big thing in image processing:  The photographer saw and perceived something, and others may perceive something different in an image.

                                 

                                Regarding converting directly to a larger pixel count:  I mean using the little link at the bottom of the Camera Raw window.  There are choices for different sizes there.  I find I can get more (and better quality) detail out of a conversion if I choose a size that's larger than the default (camera's native pixel count).

                                 

                                It is not necessarily better to do as much as possible in ACR.  If you convert to a wide gamut color space and 16 bits / channel using a good set of defaults (especially the upsampled resolution I mentioned), all the information is there and you then have access to all the wonderful functions in Photoshop proper.

                                 

                                I'm not sure what you mean by "manipulating in PhotoShop makes the image larger".  In itself that statement isn't enough to go on.  Do you mean when you save the image?  If so, what format?  There's another current thread on exactly that subject right here in this forum.

                                 

                                -Noel

                                • 13. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                                  Fred K. Level 1

                                  Hi Noel,

                                   

                                  1) OK. that is right.

                                   

                                  2) OK I understand where you mean ... in ACR.... (not in PS-image-size)

                                  I tried it. Indeed it is (for this picture) a little better. I keep it in mind!

                                   

                                  3) I read at different places to do as much as possible in ACR.... so that is why I wrote it.

                                  I will remember your story and will explore it.

                                   

                                  4) Saving an image, without doing anything with it... and save it a 2e time after several adjustments.... you get a larger image-size (I mean filesize !!) on disk (JPG and TIFF).

                                  ....you wrote something about a thread...do you know the title of that thread?

                                   

                                  Then........ Thanks for the advices.....

                                   

                                  Fred

                                  • 14. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                                    Rules of thumb are usually made to be broken.  They might provide a good starting strategy in many cases.

                                     

                                    The thread I referred to is:  http://forums.adobe.com/thread/780678

                                     

                                    I re-read it and it doesn't have that much more info in it.

                                     

                                    Keep in mind there's nothing fundamentally wrong with an image file getting larger.  If you're short on disk space, new disks are incredibly cheap nowadays.

                                     

                                    A good rule of thumb (!!) is don't save, then open, then resave JPEG files.  You can do it once or twice in a pinch, but the compression artifacts will accumulate, as JPEG does lossy compression.

                                     

                                    If a PSD file is growing larger from save to save, it may be because you are doing something to the image to cause that - e.g., creating new layers, or sharpening it and increasing the amount of apparent detail the compression process has to deal with.

                                     

                                    -Noel

                                    • 15. Re: sharpening and noise in ACR 6.3.... advice please
                                      Fred K. Level 1

                                      Hi Noel,

                                       

                                      Resave JPG files again and again... is known ... also making adjustments (eg layers and that stuff in PSDfiles >>> bigger files).

                                       

                                      SO .... I close this discussion.... thanks.... maybe a next time..

                                       

                                      Regards Fred