10 Replies Latest reply on Feb 8, 2011 9:23 AM by Jim_Simon

    Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?

    Colin Brougham Level 6

      I'll be posting my first spot with footage from a RED One this coming week. I've only played with a few clips, and not tried anything "real" with it yet.

       

      The footage is being shot in 4K 16x9, I believe at 23.976. Final delivery will be 720/30p for broadcast/cablecast. Fortunately, no sync sound to worry about in this one. I'm getting the RED drive full of footage tomorrow afternoon, so I'll have a little bit of time to play with material.

       

      My system seems to be OK with the 4.5K clips I've been testing. I kick it down to 1/4 Playback and 1/2 Paused resolution, and things seems snappy. My system is an i7-930 @ 4GHz, 24GB RAM, GTX 480, 4-drive RAID 5 off mobo that serves as my primary editing drive.

       

      I'm looking for any general advice for dealing with this material in general at the OS level, just in case there are any best practices, and any gotchas as far as CS5 is concerned. I'm trying to determine what the best sequence setting to use would be; do I want to use a matching RED preset, or post at my destination frame size/rate? My usual approach with my own 1080p material (DVCPROHD, primarily) is to edit in a full raster 1080p sequence, and then export directly to 720p for deliver. I'm thinking I'll take the same approach here, working at 4K and exporting to the final, but I'm open to suggestions. Working at a smaller frame size would obviously give me reframing options.

       

      I may do a bit of light AE work on this; nothing too much as I've got flip this pretty quickly. I'm hoping to make this one shine--the producer is terrified of RED (of course, he's the one that usually shoots 35mm and has it telecined to miniDV), and if this goes well I'll have plenty more regular spots to do like this... and I'll get to raise rates!

       

      Thanks in advance to you seasoned REDitors

        • 1. Re: Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?
          Jim_Simon Level 8
          Final delivery will be 720/30p for broadcast/cablecast.

           

          Hmm.  I thought 720p had only a 60 fps rate for broadcast.  I know 720p/30 isn't Blu-ray legal.  Does Premiere even have a 720p/30 sequence setting...for any format?  This may be important.  While I've had no issues working in a 4K sequence and exporting at lower res, the frame rates I work with always match.  I haven't tested any frame rate changes.  I don't know what Premiere Pro would do going from 24 to 60, which makes me think either the project should be shot at 60 fps, or delivered at 24 fps for later 'telecine'.

           

          As for which sequence resolution to work in, my own view is that it's the DP's job to properly frame the shot, not the editor's.  I'd not feel right redoing his work.

           

          I haven't done anything "real" yet either, but I found no special treatment of the files was required.  (That's what I like about RED, no folder structure to maintain.)

          • 2. Re: Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?
            Colin Brougham Level 6

            Hmm.  I thought 720p had only a 60 fps rate for broadcast.  I know 720p/30 isn't Blu-ray legal.  Does Premiere even have a 720p/30 sequence setting...for any format?

             

            I think 720p/60 is broadcast, but the stations/MNOC want 720p/30. They use things like a Telestream Flip Factory to "flip" the spots to their on-air system specs. I'm not too concerned about this part--I've delivered dozens of spots this way. And no, Premiere doesn't come with any 30p sequence presets, at least insofar as DV, DVCPRO50, and DVCPROHD are concerned; not a biggie as I've cooked my own. I work in 30p a lot for web work and some DVD work.

             

            As for which sequence resolution to work in, my own view is that it's the DP's job to properly frame the shot, not the editor's.  I'd not feel right redoing his work.

             

            DP? On this project? Ha--no. This is the being shot by the guy who owns the camera, and he's not a DP. Just an independently wealthy chap who owns a RED Nevertheless, I understand your point, and I agree. It's nice having the option, though. Having worked with this producer for several years, I know his propensities--he'll often given me telecined 35mm in which he'll have done multiple transfers of a scene at various crops. I anticipate the same...

             

            Anybody use any outboard apps, e.g. REDCINE-X, to prep footage before import? The Source Settings dialog in Premiere seems to give a lot of control for this, but it's sort of awkward to use--you have to open and close the dialog for each clip, instead of a bin approach as in REDCINE-X.

            • 3. Re: Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?
              Jim_Simon Level 8

              You can actually select multiple R3D files in the bin and adjust them simultaneously through a single Source Settings dialog.  I've tried this.

               

              I haven't had to use any other RED software.  (With one caveat.  The RED clips I tried were an older Build - 21 I think.  I tried to use some newer Build 30 files with the new color science and they didn't work in PP  Looks like RED is now onto Build 31.  You may need to install something to get your files to work, depending on the firmware version the camera uses.)

              1 person found this helpful
              • 4. Re: Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?
                Crooked Path Films Level 1

                In my experience using RED footage in Premiere is a dream, but still seems to choke up on effects and translations.  I ended up using 1/16th resolution for playback and 1/8th for paused to really be able to play the timeline without choking after applying effects.  One thing I'll recommend is to keep your sequence at a 3 video track maximum.  I was told that Premiere doesn't use the Mercury Engine past 3 tracks, and I didn't really take that seriously until I condensed RED project to under 3 tracks and the export time was dramatically reduced....also the playback was better.

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?
                  Harm Millaard Level 7
                  I was told that Premiere doesn't use the Mercury Engine past 3 tracks

                   

                  That was correct with version 5.00, but that limitation has been removed from 5.01 and no longer applies.

                  • 6. Re: Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?
                    Colin Brougham Level 6

                    Thanks for the tip on the Source Settings; I've made a feature request to be able to keep that panel "live" so that you don't have to open and close the panel each time for every individual clip.

                     

                    The firmware on the camera is Build 30; looks like B31 is a beta version right now. Didn't have to do anything additional as far as PPro is concerned; clips imported without issue and no extra installs required. My workstation eats this stuff for breakfast. I think 24 gigs of RAM really helps

                     

                    I'm pretty impressed with the workflow here, and much less impressed with the footage itself. As mentioned before, the camera owner is not a DP, and the producer thinks he is, so he ran the camera for some of the scenes. Basically, this whole project was a test of the M-X sensor the owner just got, and will hopefully lead to more (better) work with the RED. This test has lead me to help convince another producer/DP I work with to skip the RED and get an AF100 instead. Interesting times, indeed...

                     

                    I just did my first edit, and things were smooth. I'll be layering a bit more today, and finalizing the edit tomorrow. It's hard for me to compare what it would be like working with this material without an overclocked processor, a 4-drive RAID 5, 24G of RAM, and a GTX480, but I'm pretty impressed with how Premiere has handled this project so far.

                    • 7. Re: Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?
                      Colin Brougham Level 6

                      Thanks Richard--this should be a pretty basic project, though I'll be treating the footage a little later today. So far, so good...


                      • 8. Re: Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?
                        davidbeisner2010 Level 3

                        Hey Colin,

                         

                        I've worked extensively with R3D in PPSC5 and REDCINE-X.

                         

                        First note--don't bother with Cine-X... Now that CS5 (as of 5.0.3) supports the new color science in build 30, there's no need to use Cine-X as an intermediary. In my experience it's both very slow and also VERY unstable. If you start doing too much, it crashes. And that's not just my system, word on the street is that Cine-X is unstable both on the PC and the Mac, period.

                         

                        So, use PPro CS5 for everything you do with R3D.

                         

                        If you're going to reframe, then yes, go ahead and edit at 720. There are RED presets for down in the lower ranges, too, so I'd use a RED preset at 720p30 in order to stick in the RED presets for editing. It may not make a difference, but I just look at is as best-practice... Either way, stick in a RED preset.

                         

                        RED works beautifully in PProCS5... I've got a 920 with a three-disk RAID-0 and the GTX285 and I put it at 1/4 and full rez for paused and it works beautifully up to four layers. I've not worked past four layers, but it was still smooth when I hit four.

                         

                        Note for you with the clip settings dialog for the RED... You can save presets, so go into your first shot from a specific setup, get it the way you like it, and then create a preset for that. Then just select the rest of the clips in the bin from that shot angle and apply that preset. Repeat for different shot setups as needed.

                         

                        Adobe's done a great job building in really fluid, seamless support for RED, and with the 5.0.3 release, they've got support for the Build 30 color science as well.

                         

                        Editing R3D has been a great experience for me...

                        • 9. Re: Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?
                          Colin Brougham Level 6

                          Thanks David. Your appraisal of RC-X is pretty much what I've been told, as well. My buddy who has been on a few RED shoots as a data wrangler says that nobody really uses it. The only part about it that intrigued me was the ability to generate offlines/dailies with burn-in. Beyond that, the stupid black leather and carbon fiber interface with WAY too many panels drove me crazy. I didn't let it touch my actual working footage

                           

                          Unfortunately, after I got the footage, I realized that reframing was out of the question. When they shot this stuff, the put the focal objects way out at the edges of the frame, making reframing a pointless endeavor. This isn't my problem, of course--but they'll notice when it goes to the station that only broadcasts 4:3

                           

                          Thanks for the tip on presets--I started playing with that last night. Every setup is SO drastically different, that it's going to take a bit of extra work to equalize all the madness. For example, I've got one shot with a mix of incandescent (red!), flourescent (green!), and daylight (blue!). It's trippy, and it looks like crap by any account. Oh, well. My planned course of action here is to try to get to a baseline similar look between all the used shots (it's only a 30-second TV spot, so that shouldn't be too much work) and then use the Premiere Pro built-in CCs to finalize the look. The ability to white balance a clip so efficiently in the R3D Source Settings is pretty awesome. I just wish the preview in that window would go out to my external monitor; I filed a feature request for that one, too.

                           

                          I agree that Adobe's got sumpin' goin' on with this RED editing thing; I was half-expecting to be disappointed, but with a capable machine, this is not much more difficult that editing the HD sources I typically work with. Most of the time, I could forget about the source material, and just focus on the edit; in my opinion, that's the real power and beauty of native format editing.

                           

                          Thanks again for your input!

                          • 10. Re: Experiences with RED R3D: in CS5 and in general?
                            Jim_Simon Level 8
                            station that only broadcasts 4:3

                             

                            OK, THAT should be illegal.  The Powers That Be really messed up when they didn't require ALL terrestrial, cable and satellite broadcasts to be digital 16:9 by the cut off date.  It causes stations to put their little "bug" in the middle of the damn picture, so it can still be seen just in case a station is broadcasting at 4:3.

                             

                            So annoying.