19 Replies Latest reply: Feb 14, 2011 10:39 PM by Jeff Schewe RSS

    Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...

    tim3308 Community Member

      I'm an illustrator that works w/ brushes(can they ever get fast enough ?) in PS CS5 and, at times, some very large files:

       

      Mac Pro  2 x 3 GHz Quad-core Intel Xeon ("early 2008"), 20 GB or RAM

      OS 10.6.6 Running in 64bit

      Boot(system only) drive: 60 GB OWC Mercury Extreme SSD

      Data drive(user folder): 860 GB Striped RAID - from 3 partitions of 3 7200 RPM drives

      Scratch drive: 96 GB Striped RAID - from 3 partitions of 3 7200 RPM drives

      Storage drive: 1 TB (includes time machine partition)

       

      What is my next "biggest bang for the buck" hardware move for speed of PS CS5 (done lots of reading on the software prefs/settings)?:

       

      Is it still more memory - 24 GB?

      Or a single OWC SSD drive for data(120 GB -- I can dump a lot more items in data to storage HD)?

      Or a smaller OWC SSD for scratch?

       

      Thank you!

       

      T

        • 1. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
          PECourtejoie CommunityMVP

          Hello, partitioning Raid stripes seems odd to me.

          You might get more speed by having totally separate disks, and maybe one pair of striped disks for Scratch.

          The SSD helps a lot, but if you work with very huge images, more RAM can help...

          • 2. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
            EricDuboisMDD Community Member

            You don't mention how large the files you work with are or how many apps you use at the same time.

             

            Your partitioning scheme seems a little strange. I'd buy one or 2 more drives and avoid partitioning. Especially the storage/time machine drive. If it fails you lose your work AND your backup at once.

            • 3. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
              tim3308 Community Member

              http://macperformanceguide.com/Storage-RAID.html

               

              http://macperformanceguide.com/Storage-HowToSetupRAID.html

               

               

              and, it's not my backup...

               

              all 4 internal hd slots are full plus an SSD wired to the motherboard as boot. Firewire backup of boot and data run daily, plus online w/ backblaze.

              • 4. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                PECourtejoie CommunityMVP

                What Lloyd fails to mention clearly is that using two partitions will force the reading/writing heads to go back and forth from one partition to the other, if there are concurrent accesses.

                 

                The Idea of RAID 0 is to read/write faster because you can read/write several stripes at a time. If you have partitions, you are jumping the two (or more) heads from one partition to the other. And movement of the head of a HDD is the slowest of the operations that you can have. Maybe partitioning a RAID 0 of SSD could be ok in that regard, if they have fast random read/writes.

                 

                And putting valuable files on a RAID 0 is a no-go for me. Temp files are ok.

                 

                I would not take all of Lloyd Chambers claims as the Holy truth. He does some research, yes, he has access to very nice material, yes, but sometimes uses his own suite of tests that is not always comparable to real life. He often cries wolf, and can use very biased titles to attract page views, then somehow soften the content compared to the title.

                • 5. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                  tim3308 Community Member

                  So you are his RAID pages are are built on false premises?

                  • 6. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                    PECourtejoie CommunityMVP

                    I never said that his RAID pages are built on false premises.

                    I said that I do not like the way he titles some of his articles, as some titles are IMHO misleading, which is sad, especially as he offers good information on many pages.

                     

                    I did say that I would not partition a RAID array, as the whole array would need to jump back and forth for the different sets of data present on each partition. When one accepts to sacrifice security for bandwidth, increasing access latency (that is not modified by the striping) is not what I would personaly do.

                    • 7. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                      tim3308 Community Member

                      I really do appreciate your help and input -- thank you! But, in a nutshell, you basically said/implied, his advice regarding RAID were slow and unreliable (I get the RAID risk issue, and one's acceptance of it or not, so fair enough there!).

                       

                      I can't debate the minutia into the higher geek levels of this stuff(and won't), and thats' where a helpful page like Lloyd's is so well received out there. Folks like me are in constant search of real world info (Yes, I feel he tries to get very "real world" on his pages). What other 3rd party, willing to stick their neck out, puts the effort/time like he does w/ PS and Mac Pros as well presented for non geeks to "get"... who? Nobody else I've found, not even close? You can accuse me of drinking the kool-aid, but his Mac performance guide site provides such a great free service.

                       

                      Here's a quote from Mac Pro section of Apple's discussion where some of the most helpful folks like "hatter" often refer/point to Lloyd's research:

                      The best advice I can give you is to follow LLoyd Chambers on his Blog and on Twitter:

                      http://diglloyd.com/diglloyd/
                      http://twitter.com/diglloyd

                       

                      And also his Mac Performance Guide, which has sections dedicated to optimising Photoshop CS5 and CS4 performance:
                      http://macperformanceguide.com/index_topics.html

                       

                      Lloyd will be one of the very first people outside of Apple to test the new 2010 Mac Pros, and all his systems and recommendations are optimised for use with photoshop.

                       

                      In my opinion nobody is better equipped or more experienced to advise you in these matters than Lloyd Chambers.

                       

                      So like many, until he's proven to be full of bad advice, I will follow Llloyd's set up direction/advice regarding raid and partitions, etc. I think he's earned his "stripes", no pun intended.

                      • 8. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                        PECourtejoie CommunityMVP

                        Hi!

                        Please note that it is only RAID 0 that is less reliable. It is the only RAID level that should not be called RAID, as there is no redundancy.

                         

                        I would suggest that you ask at StorageReview.com, to see if they would approve the idea of partitioning a RAID 0.

                         

                        The point of a RAID 0 is to accelerate the bandwidth. So you go for RAID 0 for performance. But, if you partition the striped array, and use the other part for another function, IF the 2 partitions need to be accessed at the same time (*), the reading/writing heads will have to jump from one area to the other, and during that time, the disk will have to make a rotation without reading anything. On a mechanical disk, it is one of the slowest operations.

                        I'm not saying that Lloyd's advice regarding RAID was slow, I said that partitioning a disk is slower than using two separate disks.

                         

                        On one hand, you go for performance, on the other you degrade it...

                         

                        Please search this forum for partitioning, or see the presentation from three Adobe Engineers: See page 8, when it says "competing for access is bad" It means to dedicate disks only for Photoshop's scratch "• Drives generally only have one read/write head - if something else is trying to read or write at the same time – make that drive head dance!" . The best being to use them on RAID 0, or to use SSDs, and that's where I do wholeheartedly agree with Lloyd.

                         

                        So, those are my 2 cents...

                         

                        (*) If you store non important data that won't be accessed at the same time as Photoshop's Scratch is, there is no issue in dedicating part of the drive for that purpose.

                         

                        BTW, search also here for "Chris Cox" "Lloyd"  and "Snake Oil". Chris is a senior Photoshop engineer, that focuses on performance, between many things.

                        • 9. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                          EricDuboisMDD Community Member

                          Thanks you Tim and PEC for the links and valuable RAID information. Diglloyd does mention the head conflict issue ("even though head contention between partitions is in theory an issue, it’s never been one in practice in my usage")

                          http://macperformanceguide.com/Storage-HowToSetupRAID.html#TwoPartitionRAID

                           

                          I'm no RAID expert but I feel he understates it or works on files that are small enough not to cause a problem.

                           

                          If you feel your system is unresponsive, keep the console window open to see if some other process is slowing you down. You can have the best hardware setup but sometimes the software is the culprit.

                           

                          Eric

                          • 10. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                            Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                            What other 3rd party, willing to stick their neck out, puts the effort/time like he does w/ PS and Mac Pros as well presented for non geeks to "get"... who? Nobody else I've found, not even close?

                            Just because someone is visible and vocal, does not mean that they are correct. (heck, look at American news networks)

                             

                            Lloyd does some decent research, then jumps to conclusions, exaggerates the results, and goes for attention grabbing headlines. He hasn't earned his stripes, he's just doing a lot of self promotion to make it appear that he knows what he's talking about (even when that is not the case).

                             

                            Adobe's performance guidelines are usually more thoroughly tested, not exaggerated, and not seeking attention.

                             

                            RAID arrays are a step up from normal disks, but they do have reliability issues.

                            I use a couple of RAID5 arrays for my image storage - so I have speed and reliability.

                            If you want the fastest scratch disk though, go for an SSD (or an array of SSDs).

                            • 11. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                              Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                              ("even though head contention between partitions is in theory an issue, it’s never been one in practice in my usage")

                              Now that is a laughable quote.  Even basic testing can show how head movement between partitions is a problem, or head movement on a fragmented disk, or head movement when launching an app that reads scattered files.

                              • 12. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                                tim3308 Community Member

                                Thank you again, PE  and Eric and Chris,

                                 

                                I get the concept of what you are saying w/ the head reading conflicts(and Chris'). I do.

                                 

                                Chris, is the scratch disk not becoming a bit of a dinosaur w/ 64 bit(finally on Macs) and a good amount of RAM, generally speaking, of course?

                                 

                                Yes, "PE", I have stumbled onto the history here that Lloyd and Chris will not be "having chicken on Sunday togther" as they say in the south. I will say this, obviously much of what Mr. Chambers puts out there is helpful to those looking for it. Obviously some of you disagree w/ items he has put out there. Chris, I submit maybe Adobe should be more proactice in thsi regard as well, as this post on this forum perfectly sums it up for me -- it maybe out there from Adobe, but Diglloyd sure comes up faster and it constantly referred to (in a positive light) even in this forum:

                                 

                                its a pitty that i never saw adobe delivering some kind of performance guide for photoshop, how to improve performance for professional users, like posting that guide on their main photoshop site, i had to digg for these informations for a long period of time and found it in the end at diglloyd´s comprehensive site. i wonder why adobe makes a secret about photoshop performance, a lot of my friends at work mentioned formerly, that they have had huge lag issues and dont know where to begin solving these problems, which are solvable for sure.... (new hardware, proper settings and so on)

                                 

                                • 13. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                                  Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                                  Chris, is the scratch disk not becoming a bit of a dinosaur w/ 64 bit(finally on Macs) and a good amount of RAM, generally speaking, of course?

                                  No. As long as the images you work on can get larger than physical RAM, the scratch disk is needed. And don't forget that includes history states, images in presets, data in smart objects, and other image data caches.  Even people working on web graphics frequently exceed the physical RAM with their documents.

                                  That's sort of like saying that virtual memory and OS paging files are no longer needed now that we have 64 bit addressing and 32 Gig of RAM.  You may not realize that you need those features all the time, because they don't get in the way often enough to make you notice them.

                                   

                                   

                                  Adobe puts out quite a few FAQs, white papers, tutorials, conference sessions, etc.  We just don't spend the effort making it visible like Lloyd does.  It's far from secret, and it's all out in the open -- we just don't promote ourselves as much. Face it: someone with a self interested in self promotion is always going to make sure they are more visible.  We, on the other hand, have other things to do with our time (like track down and fix bugs, write new features, and train other people how to use the features we've written).

                                   

                                  If you search the forum (er, and the forum search is !@#$^*% working today), there are plenty of references to publications, web pages, videos, and even what we've replied to in the forums.  We added the performance preferences panel in Photoshop, and the tips that appear in there, to help guide the needs of most users.  For power users there are many places where they can find accurate, tested, verified information on how to make Photoshop run faster for their workflows.

                                  • 14. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                                    tim3308 Community Member

                                    Thanks for the info Chris.

                                     

                                    I hear you on on the "self promotion" priority. But Adobe should consider more resources to be devoted to popular hub for powers users to get info from Adobe. Look, you guys are going after guys like me...I am a pro. I do high profile illus. jobs. I'm a devoted Painter user and fan, but the horsepower and speed( and now mixer brushes --yeah!), have got me all over PS CS5. I wanna know about speed set ups or hardware software, easily and concisely in ONE place!

                                     

                                    The PDF "PE" posted is a prime example: It's based on CS3, prior to Mac PS being even 64-bit (I realize many or most concepts still apply?) and "partition" or "partitioning" is "zero pages found" when I search that document. Shouldn't be all the digging or out of date. Lloyd's site is not digging. I hope you take this is in the spirit it is given.

                                    • 15. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                                      Chris Cox Adobe Employee

                                      You don't get hits on "partition" or "partitioning" for the same reasons that medical textbooks don't explicitly say not to hit yourself in the head with hammers...

                                      It's a so obviously a bad idea that most people don't think that there's a need to state it.

                                       

                                      Google "photoshop performance" -- the top results are our knowledgebase articles, plus blog posts, and some third party guides (with mixed quality).

                                       

                                       

                                      We've posted FAQs, white papers and such for CS4 and CS5, in addition to the videos, conference sessions, etc.

                                      Again, there is a lot of information out there.

                                       

                                      Unfortunately, there are only so many things we can highlight at one time (and so MANY topics people are asking about).

                                      • 16. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                                        Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                        tim3308 wrote:

                                         

                                        But Adobe should consider more resources to be devoted to popular hub for powers users to get info from Adobe.

                                         

                                         

                                        Look, you're here exchanging information and getting good and accurate methods of increasing Photoshop performance with one of the engineers responsible for Photoshop performance. I would say that's a pretty good deal. That's what the user to user forums are designed for.

                                         

                                        If Chris tells you something about Photoshop performance, it would behoove you to take heed.

                                        • 17. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                                          tim3308 Community Member

                                          Indeed, Jeff.

                                          • 18. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                                            tim3308 Community Member

                                            I found this blog entry to be very helpful as well. Maybe for someone else as well? Thanks again for your help, all.

                                             

                                            http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/09/how-to-set-up-a-great-photoshop-machine.html

                                            • 19. Re: Dear photoshop CS5 64 bit speed experts...
                                              Jeff Schewe Community Member

                                              As indicated by Chris, Adobe has TRIED to make information available to users...yes, sometimes they don't get the Google ranking that other loud "experts" seem to get...

                                               

                                              Based on your OP, and depending on the size of the files you normally work with, your best "bang" for the bucks would prolly be to keep your (admittedly small) SSD as a boot drive, take 2 of your internal slots to have a pair of ESATA drives set to a stripped array (I would suggest getting a pair of larger non-OEM drives–like a pair of 1 or 2 TB drives) and get an SSD drive to be your 4th drive for Photoshop scratch (not files and hopefully more than 96GB in size).

                                               

                                              You should also consider getting more ram (if your files are really big). You should also look at getting a new MacPro tower because, well, 2008 is a pretty old MacPro, ya know?

                                               

                                              Photoshop has three main bottlenecks; CPU speed (including multi-processors/cores), RAM and disk I/O. When you want to punch up performance, you need to address all three factors...

                                               

                                              If you want to know, I've got a Dual Quad 2.93 GHz (April 2010 MacPro) with 32 gigs of ram and my boot drive is a single 15K 600GB SAS drive with a second 15K SAS drive as boot backup. The Photoshop scratch disk is a pair of 15K 600BG SAS drives. The 15K SAS drives are connected by a Mac RAID card.

                                               

                                              All my work files are running off an internal ESATA card connected to external 6, 2TB drives arrayed with an array 0. That array is backed up to a second nightly identical 6 drive array which is also backed up nightly to a DrobePro connected via iSCSI. So I've always got 3 redundant copies online. This setup is very, very fast for Photoshop CS5 and Lightroom 3. I also have a MacBook Pro (late 2010) with a 512GB SSD drive as the main boot for field work. I now like SSDs (I wasn't sure back in April of last year when I went for the MAC RAID card and the SAS drives). If I were to redo the MacPro today, I would have SSD's for boot and possibly Photoshop scratch. Don't know at this point where I would go re: SAS vs SSD drives...

                                               

                                              So, you have a long way to go to get a premium Photoshop machine...just saying.