14 Replies Latest reply on Apr 5, 2011 9:20 PM by Toomany3

    I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved

    Videoman54321 Level 1

      Hello,

       

      As a longtime Edius user, I tested out Premiere CS5 recently and found it to be quite a nice program compared to when I last used it (6.5!).

       

      I was ready to look at making it my go to editor until I tried the multicam feature.  I then decided I had to stay with Edius.

       

      The Edius multicam approach is to leave the timeline in tact but "flip" it from single mode to multi mode just by hitting the F12 key.  So all of your clips stay right where they are on the timeline.  When you flip into Multicam mode each layer can be assigned to a camera.  And you can switch with the number pad.  When you make a switch a full cut is made for all clips.  The camera you chose stays active and the rest of the layers are de-enabled.  If you want to make changes you just slide around the cut points, add transitions or re-enable clips...

       

      While I am sure Adobe is well aware of all of this, I wanted to post it to show that this feature alone is keeping me away from Premiere, or if improved will lead me to using Premiere.

       

      If a better place to post this for Adobe to see is out there, please respond and I will post it there as well.

       

      Carry on...:)

        • 2. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          I think the Adobe method is superior.  Leaving the original clips uncut, it becomes easier to do audio and CC work on the whole clips after the multicam cut.

          • 4. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
            westonwoodbury Level 1

            I too like the original clips uncut, Avid-esk multicam.  However, the way that Edius engineered their software, makes the way the their multicam work out quite well.

             

            My biggest complaint with Premiere's multi-cam is the # of clips.  4? Eh.. I realize it's based for interviews & having any more than 4 would probably rock Premiere's poor performance back when it was developed, but until it's 8 (more would be amazing) like Avid & Edius I really can't use it much.

             

            I've done music videos with 20-50 layers of the old enable/disable method.  Tedious

             

            - wb

            • 5. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
              Toomany3 Level 1

              I love everything Adobe (even Flash), however I have to agree that this Multicam limitation of 4 cameras has caused me to resurrect my FCP program and has me also checking out Vegas and Edius.

               

              I love how After Effects plays so well with Premiere.  And seems how Steve Jobs has forgotten about his old pro users and has embraced the iPeople, I am happy to make the switch to Adobe FULLY.

               

              HOWEVER, I frequently do recordings where I have 7-10 cameras.  Three of those are pretty much b-roll and used for bandaids if needed, I still need the capability to edit them in without having to do cheesy "hacks" (like picture-in-picture) to make my edits.

               

              In fact, I was just on here searching the boards to see the best way to work multi-cam (multiclip) in FCP or Edius and import the project back to Premiere... but by the time I do that, I might as well stick it out on those programs, even though it's 2 years old (FCP at least). 

               

              I hate FCP7, but at least its mutliclip works great... up to 128 cameras, so I hear....

               

              I have sent in this request since CS3 and still nothing...  This is the only thing (in my opinion) that is a HUGE problem with Adobe Premiere. 

               

              Now that I think about it, I haven't edited a show with less than 5 cameras in the last 6 months.  Grrrr!!! 

               

              But since I'm shooting on 5dmk2's, 7Ds, EX1rs and some old Canon A1s and then mixing that footage together, I find myself on the fence.... do I want to transcode everything and have a great multicamera editor, or do I want to play everything natively and have to tripple my multicam editing time because I'm limited to prehistoric 4-cam-only limitations...

               

               

              • 6. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
                westonwoodbury Level 1

                Agreed. It's overdue for a major improvement.

                 

                FYI, I have successfully transferred an Edius multicam cut into Premiere, it was for a music video that wound up with 45 or so layers.  But I only did the first 8 in Edius, before exporting a .xml or .aaf or whatever type of edl it was and then importing with premiere.  As long as the timeline is still simple, just cuts, it worked.

                 

                I'm working on another music video now, up to 25 sources.. in fact, here's a pic of my PPro sequence http://plixi.com/photos/original/89432628 .

                 

                If something was designed to handle showing all the options at once & pick the best shots, it would save me boatloads of time.  This process of cutting each enabling/disabling is very time consuming and not ideal (watching each layer individually, guessing good shots, then juggling what's left, scrolling up and down the timeline window constantly, etc).

                 

                What if you could see them all at once, and you can render the multicam preview so performance isn't an issue.  Then you can designate a playback speed, picking how much time you want to give yourself to make a cut.  .75 realtime, .5 realtime, .25 ,.1, etc.  The camera you pick stays outlined or something and doesn't affect your render, just alters the "program" output.  That would be ideal for me, personally.

                 

                I've never tried FCP's multicam, if it supports that many cameras I probably ought to check it out. What little I've tested with it I remember not being too impressed, maybe I should give it another go.  I know & love Avid's multicam, if it supported more than 8 I'd never use anything but Media Composer for multicam projects.  :/

                 

                Exactly:

                "do I want to transcode everything and have a great multicamera editor, or do I want to play everything natively and have to tripple my multicam editing time because I'm limited to prehistoric 4-cam-only limitations"

                 

                2 notes on this decision--

                 

                a) if it's r3d involved, it's a problem because I want access to my raw settings, I don't want to convert it to ProRes/DNxHD/Canopus HQ.

                 

                b) some of these multicam editors, like MC's, simply won't work if it's not a nice, neat, 1 clip take, or things like not matching formats.  What do I do if I have several clips that need make up the whole performance?  The ability to make a 'sequence' of that 'source', and use that sequence as a camera in the multicam, is essential for me.

                 

                Hopefully someone's listening, because at the moment none of the multicam editors are anywhere near perfect.  =)

                 

                - wb

                • 7. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
                  Toomany3 Level 1

                  Funny you should say what you did about Edius.

                   

                  Since I posted that, I fired up a trial version of Edius on another computer and got it to play VERY WELL with Premiere.  Not sure if there's any interest in this on here seems how it's an Adobe site, but I got 10 cameras multi-camed in Edius WITHOUT ANY tutorial or crazy set up (hint, hint)... it was all natural... to me at least.

                   

                  Edius works like a CHAMP!  But I do like how Premiere handles all the MC clips and puts them into one layer of video.  (Audio is another problem that bugs the heck out of me in CS5 MC, but that's another topic perhaps.)

                   

                  Well, I figured out how to set it up in Edius, multicam edit it, and then sandwich all the cuts into a single track (just like PP).  Then I exported the project with some AAF settings, and it imported all my cuts WONDERFULLY into Premiere.

                   

                  I'm sure this isn't a big revelation for others, but for me it was!  I can finally bury FCP and it's transcode madness and use Edius much like I do Premiere (e.g. it's snappy, doesn't seem to choke on any of my footage), and then bring it back in to polish in Premiere...

                   

                  And since I qualify for non-profit pricing, the $190 price for Edius pays for itself in just a couple days of editing MC in Edius instead of Premiere....

                   

                  I just did one hour's worth of work in Premiere in 10 minutes in Edius.  I'm impressed!  I'm glad I checked it out.

                   

                  But sure wish I could just do this in CS5... Adding another program in the mix is just stupid.

                   

                  Love Adobe, Hate Multicam!  I think Premiere could take over the editing world if they could just figure out Multicaming.   The Adobe booth at NAB was buzzing last year with all the 64-bit programs, dynamic linking, etc.... This would be the icing on the cake.

                   

                  IMO.

                  • 8. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
                    westonwoodbury Level 1

                    Yeah, that's totally Edius's strength in my experience--really user friendly (for the most part) and incredibly easy to pick up, figure things out, and use.  It shines in rock solid performance as well.

                     

                    Glad it's working for your workflow!

                     

                    Agreed about the icing. Adobe's booth.. I'll be there.

                     

                    - wb

                    • 9. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
                      Videoman54321 Level 1

                      Glad to see this thread getting some activity.  I am an Edius user

                      that is wanting to switch to Adobe but multicam is holding me back.

                       

                      Edius' multicam feels like a live switch.  It is a touch of a button (F12) away and you can choose to combine the output into one track or keep the tracks layered where it "enables" or "disables" cut clips.  Such a simple but effective approach.

                       

                      Hope Adobe takes notice.

                      • 10. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
                        Colin Brougham Level 6

                        Hope Adobe takes notice.

                         

                        Since these forums aren't really monitored by the engineering team, they won't. Use this instead: Adobe Feature Request/Bug Report Form

                        • 11. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
                          adam gold Level 1

                          I've gone back to the first post and re-read it several times and I still can't figure out what you need Premiere to do that it doesn't.  You can effectively toggle between multicam and non multicam mode by clicking on the tabs for sequence 1 and sequence 2.  The nested timeline is effectively cutting all the camera clips; to substitute one for another -- say, from cam 2 to cam 4 -- for a single shot only requires double clicking on the shot and clicking on the new one in the source monitor.  You can still apply effects to either the entire original clip or to the individual shot just by choosing which timeline you want.  And sliding the cuts around, adding effects and adding transitions is easy to do in your nested timeline.  The Premiere help files say you can use the keyboard to make cuts as well but I'm not sure if it's on the number row only or the keypad as well -- will have to try that.  [Okay, verified this and it is silly -- you can use the number row but not the keypad.  Point taken.]

                           

                          So I apologize for my Edius illiteracy; I've never used my Edius install so I'm not sure what it is you want to do that you can't in Premiere.  If you can post some specific tasks maybe we can help more.

                           

                          But I certainly agree it's time to enable more than four cams.  Feature request filed.

                          • 12. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
                            Videoman54321 Level 1

                            I did post a feature request.

                             

                            It is difficult to explain.  It would be easier if you used Edius and had a chance to compare.  The Edius implementation is setup in a more common sense way.  When I was giving Premiere CS5 a shot recently to use as my full time editor, multicam in Premiere just seemed too complicated, a separate sequence, needing to set it up, clicking on the window (source monitor)...

                             

                            When I edit in Edius I sync up the camera files, add my filters etc... then switch to multicam and use the same timeline to finish the edit.  It is like single cam and multicam co-exist at the same time.  It is just very fluid and in my opinion Premiere would really benefit from a better approach.  If they can improve there multicam to a level where it is at least equal to Edius' I will leave Canopus as a customer.  But I would not trade right now.

                             

                            I am not the Premiere expert either, just going off of my impressions from using for a while to evaluate.  We all have our software we like.  Premiere CS5 was great for everything but multicam imho.

                            • 13. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
                              Toomany3 Level 1

                              I'd consider myself a Premiere expert.  Granted, there's things I don't know still, but I'd say after using it 10+ hours per day (side by side wtih After Effects and Photoshop), I know all the "good, bad, and ugly" of Premiere.

                               

                              64-bit and MPE are great.  For the life of me, I don't know why the Apple Koolaiders think Final Cut is so great.  It's not.  It's 2 years behind Premiere and some people are finally waking up and jumping that sinking ship for something better... much better--Adobe.

                               

                              HOWEVER, mutlicam on Premiere is HORRIBLE.

                               

                              As Videoman54321 pointed out, Edius seems so intuitive and straight forward.  I hadn't thought of it that way, but their implementation of multicam is essentially a singlecam AND multicam sequence on the same sequence.  VERY NO-BRAINER!

                               

                              FCP and especially Premiere make the process soooo labor intensive that if you forget one step you're hosed.... AND the steps need to be in order.  I think Premiere's Multicam is the worst of the bunch EVEN not considering the 4-cam limitation.  There are so many unecessary, stupid steps it's a wonder that the community isn't up in arms about this.  Perhaps they don't do any multicam work.

                               

                              If you do multicam work, especially more than 4 cameras like I do EVERY DAY, you grow to HATE this one thing in Premiere to the point that FCP starts looking decent again.... ok, maybe not after you open it up again, but Edius on the other hand... that's a different story.  If they had more support and features, I'd jump ship.

                               

                              In fact, I just bought Edius.  The proxy workflow is aweome when you have a lot of cameras running (say 6+) and need to see them all in real time.

                               

                              I'm going to work all the multicam stuff in Edius now and then export the project back to PP for polishing and final editing. 

                              • 14. Re: I would switch to Premiere if Multicam was Improved
                                Toomany3 Level 1

                                Adam, I agree with you that Premiere can do a lot, but really, Multicam stinks.  Just reading your post 3 times makes me shake my head with confussion.  This isn't what multicam needs to be like.  Download a 30-day trial of Edius and you'll know what I mean. 

                                 

                                It's not better than Premiere.  It's like a stripped down version of it.  But what it does do, it does VERY VERY well.  It's spunky, quick and does multicam like it should be done.

                                 

                                Looks like you've got your workflow and workaround to fix Adobe's poor implementation of MC.  I have mine too.  If I were to explain mine to you as you just tried, you'd be confussed like I am with yours.  Not that yours is wrong and mine is right.  Yours "works" for you, mine "works" for me.  But they are Bandaides, patches, hacks, fixes that WE, the USER have to come up with to fix what's awefully wrong wtih Premiere.


                                This shouldn't have to be.  Multicam should just simply work.  PERIOD.  No mods, hacks, fixes, workarounds.  Edius works like that.  Sure wish Adobe would buy them out and just take their proxy workflow and multicam and throw it in CS6!