12 Replies Latest reply on Apr 11, 2011 1:02 PM by ECBowen

    I/O card.  What to buy?

    Tayedrummer Level 1

      I currently have Premiere CS5 running on this system:

       

      Win 7/64

      Intel i7/960

      nVidia Geforce GTX 480 (with hack)

      Red Rocket

      OS on SSD

      Media on RAID

      Scratch drive

       

      I'm primarily editing and grading footage R3D files from the Red One camera and am looking for an output card for use with this system.  AJA were listed as a preferred Adobe vendor but I have their Kona 3G card in my system now and when you edit in Premiere using their preset sequences the performance is bruuuuuuutal.  DSLR footage barely plays without rendering, Red footage is totally unusable.  A call to their tech support suggested disabling the Red Rocket card but the performance only got worse.  If I can't get this to work it's going back.

       

      I've tried looking on Reduser.net but they're mostly Mac guys over there.  The performance of this machine is excellent prior to the card.  I can playback, layer and edit 4K R3D media in realtime with the Rocket card + MPE, I just need to be able to connect to professional monitors/scopes/machines.

       

      Any suggestions?

        • 1. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
          FelixUnderwood Level 2

          I do primarily HD TV spots and, generally speaking, have been happy with the Matrox MXO2 with MAX. It has a great output for HDMI monitoring. I use it with an HD 40" and it also has a great monitor calibration utility. This comes in especially handy if you haven't plunked down 5 grand for a professional broadcast monitor. And with Matrox's latest driver release, I'm even happier. Now, I've just opened the flood gates, so here comes all the negative trashing from Matrox haters, and there's lots of them on this forum! But you asked about monitoring and that's an area I think Matrox accels in. With Matrox, you even get an HD output of the titler, the Preview Window and even an output of After Effects and Photoshop. I am racing against the clock on a nearly daily basis, so if it were as bad as some say, I would have moved on years ago. Keep in mind that some of the negative advice will come from previous users of Matrox products, who have no experience with the MXO2, which is their current line and what I'm vouching for.

          • 2. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
            jkosmicki Level 2

            I have been using Blackmagic Decklink products for a while now (had an AJA LHi previously). I can play multiple layers and effects in 1080P, real-time with simultaneous output to both HD-SDI and SD-HDI (also HDMI & component for that matter) with RGB to YUV conversion. What I definately can't do is output Red 4K/2K real-time through the Decklink card. I convert all Red footage to 1080P before I edit anyway so it's not an issue for me. I don't think any card doing an RGB>YUV conversion will work realtime with 4K footage. You may want to look at the Nvidia Quadro with an SDI daughter card, that should do what you need. http://www.nvidia.com/object/quadro_dvp.html

            • 3. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
              ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

              Is the Red Rocket Breakout Box not available or something? BTW Neither the AJA or the Blackmagic will handle 4K frame size. The current AJA driver does not work completely with the MPE acceleration so that is likely why your performance is so bad with the Kona 3.

               

              Eric

              ADK

              • 4. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
                Tayedrummer Level 1

                Much thanks for the replies.

                 

                Felix:  Thanks.  I did call Matrox and tech support did say that they they support the "Red workflow" but couldn't elaborate on what that was.  NAB is literally right around the corner so I'll see if any new announcements from from their camp.

                 

                Jkos:  The Quadro+SDI output looks like an interesting combo but those cards are like unicorns...if they exist I have no idea where to find them.  Honestly, no e-tailer that they link to have these cards.  Still looking into this option.

                 

                Ecbowen:  The Red breakout box is really just for 4K quad-link output.  The card itself has two SDI outputs but they are only active when using RedCine-X.  That's fine for doing a baselight grade but then it goes dark when using any other app.

                 

                BTW, I'm not actually cutting 4K projects.  I take the 4K/3K/2K R3D files and drop them into 1080P projects.between Premiere CS5, the MPE and the Red Rocket card everything plays back beautifully, in real time, very smooth.  All of that performance is lost with the Kona3G.  I found that really shocking for a $2000 card.

                 

                For now I think this card is getting packed back up and sent back.  I'll wait for NAB announcements from Matrox while looking for Quadro+SDI

                • 5. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                  Interesting that Red's presets in Adobe don't initialize the Red Rocket for output. The problem you run into running another I/O card is you have to use their codec presets. This creates a significant load on the system since likely the R3D decoding is likely handled by software instead of hardware in that scenario and then the encoding process for preview creates further load on the system. Blackmagic would work better than AJA but I would give Cineform Neo 4K if you want to monitor out an I/O card in the future. That should take some load off the system since you really should have one of the 6 Core CPU's or higher for what you are doing. That 960 or other quad cores are really not the ideal CPU's for Red material. The Quadro SDI cards have to be  specially ordered by resellers like us even. PNY builds them to order. If you want one then place an order with any Quadro reseller and they can get them. However most likely there is a no return  policy on them since they are BTO.

                   

                  Eric

                  ADK

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
                    jkosmicki Level 2
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                    Tayedrummer wrote:

                     

                    BTW, I'm not actually cutting 4K projects.  I take the 4K/3K/2K R3D files and drop them into 1080P projects.

                    In that case, you probably would want to convert the Red files to CineForm 1080p files and edit from those. CineForm is Wavelet like the Red files and you don't lose any quality on the transcode. Both AJA and Blackmagic will play the CineForm files back in realtime.

                    • 7. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
                      Tayedrummer Level 1

                      ECB:  Yes, you're right.  This machine isn't purpose built for Red editing but I'm a DP, not an editor so the post work I'm doing is primarily personal projects.  That said, this machine cuts through Red footage like butter.  2K, 3K, 4K files all just drop into bins, playback in full/half res all in realtime, no rendering.

                       

                      Thanks for the info on the Quadro/SDI built-to-order.  That expains why I haven't found them anywhere.

                       

                       

                       

                      Jkos:  I'm trying to avoid rendering out all the footage before I can use it.  The great thing about Premiere is that I can edit from the original R3D files.  If I go and change the baselight grade in RedCine-X that grade follows the footage into Premiere.  Rendering out using an application that doesn't use the Red Rocket card would likely take forever and a day.  Even using RedCine-X, the render time on a long take that would render out in 15-20 min with the Rocket card would take 2-3 hours with it disabled.

                       

                       

                      For now I think I'm going to return this Kona card and wait a week for NAB to see what is announced.

                       

                      Thanks for the help!

                      • 8. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                        Your system handles the R3D when you have the hardware acceleration via the Red Rocket card. That is why you cut through it as you say when just monitoring normally. However as soon as you switch to software decoding and encoding how was your experience? Based on your original comments, the AJA experience was un-editable with the R3D files. That shows you how limited the Quad cores are for that material and why you are returning the AJA card. The point I was making was if you want to use an I/O device  to monitor outside of the Red Rocket card then your system is not going to handle it well as you have seen. A Matrox card or a Blackmagic card would not change that much because once again you have to use their sequence settings which adds tremendous load to your system. My comments on the Quad Cores was explaining that.

                         

                        Eric

                        ADK

                        • 9. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
                          ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                          BTW might want to keep an eye out for this

                           

                          http://www.blackmagic-design.com/products/decklink4k/

                           

                          Eric

                          ADK

                          • 10. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
                            Tayedrummer Level 1

                            You're right that this isn't the fastest system on the block but it still cuts though 4K footage like butter.  When using RedCine-X I get full debayer playback of 4K all in realtime.  Any baselight grading is also realtime.  Premiere CS5 with the RR and MPE edit R3D as easy as H264 MOV's from a DLSR camera so the machine is capable of working with the footage, I just need to find an I/O card that can play with the rest of the components and not want to do it all itself.

                             

                            Thanks for the link on the 4K decklink.  I'm puzzled that there is no mention of Red or Alexa workflow as they're the only cameras shooting 4.5K and 3.5K respectively.

                             

                            Doesn't look like any new cards but Matrox has announced CS5.5 support.  We'll see what that means.

                            • 11. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
                              jkosmicki Level 2
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                              Doesn't look like any new cards but Matrox has announced CS5.5 support.  We'll see what that means.

                              Blackmagic already has the 5.5 compatible drives on their website available for download.

                              • 12. Re: I/O card.  What to buy?
                                ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                The workflow listings would not matter in this case. They would not be able to accelerate R3D anyway. In this case the preview would likely be uncompressed unless they extended another codec to that frame size. As long as the editor could handle the decoding of the original R3D then the Decklink 4K would handle the encoding/preview. Now if they could get Adobe to initialize the RR for hardware decoding with this then that would be a very nice combination.

                                 

                                Eric

                                ADK