1 2 Previous Next 56 Replies Latest reply on Apr 8, 2011 8:22 PM by Jeff Schewe

    Need lab color info in Camera Raw.

    nortj

      I would like to be able to see lab color info in addition to the RGB numbers in ACR.  The ACR color correction sliders are lab in nature, and the lab numbers are easier for color correction than the RGB numbers.

      I

        • 1. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
          Noel Carboni Level 7

          I know it's right here in the same forum, but it might be helpful if you'd make your request in this thread:

           

          http://forums.adobe.com/thread/311487?tstart=0

           

          -Noel

          • 2. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
            Vit Novak Level 3

            I added wish to have various kind of displays (RGB, HSV, Lab ...) in ACR to mentioned feature whish list a while ago, but so far there is only RGB indicator. However, most of ACR controls/transformations are performed in Photo Pro color space and not in Lab

            • 3. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
              Tim Lookingbill Level 1

              If on a Mac you can use the Digital Color Meter set to CIELab which reads from the preview, not actual internal color space data. I've used this when editing a custom camera profile in DNG Profile Editor.

               

              Not sure about this but I think you have to have an Apple display to get the CIELab readout. Since I'm on an iMac that's a given, but when I used a non Apple display in the past I wouldn't get these readouts except plain RGB.

              • 4. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                Jeff Schewe Level 5

                nortj wrote:

                 

                The ACR color correction sliders are lab in nature, and the lab numbers are easier for color correction than the RGB numbers.

                 

                Actually no, they are not. They do offer HSL (Hue, Saturation and Lightness) which is a cylindrical-coordinate representation of points still in an RGB color model. It's not Lab.

                 

                So, exactly why do you think it would be easier for color correction? Since ACR can't output in Lab, what would you hope to accomplish by measuring color readouts that don't (and can't) exist inside of ACR?

                • 5. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                  Vit Novak Level 3

                  HSL indicator (as alternative to RGB) would be usefull anyway (to check hues during adjustments in ACR etc)

                  • 6. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                    Jeff Schewe Level 5

                    Vit Novak wrote:

                     

                    HSL indicator (as alternative to RGB) would be usefull anyway (to check hues during adjustments in ACR etc)

                     

                    Except ACR's HSL isn't a standard hue distribution since it has 2 additional colors (oranges & purples) and aquas is different than cyan. So, I'm not sure what the color readouts would give you since they only live in ACR and LR.

                    • 7. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                      Hudechrome Level 2

                      Whose idea was to come up with aqua? That slider is barely useable if and when there is aqua to move around. I can't even find aqua in water. Maybe it needs to be recast as aqua regia. That will get stuff moving.

                      • 8. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                        Jeff Schewe Level 5

                        Hudechrome wrote:

                         

                        Whose idea was to come up with aqua?

                         

                        Uh, that would be a fellow by the name of Thomas Knoll who knows a bit about this sort of thing ya know? You'll need a bit more experience (and credibility) to make much of an argument regarding the HSL color  breakdown. It wasn't done without considerable discussion and debate. Photoshop is still stuck in the 6 color HSL world.

                        • 9. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                          Hudechrome Level 2

                          Ah, yes, bow to the lord. How tacky of me to dispense with genuflection.

                           

                          Whatever you say, ya know?

                           

                          Please pass along my comments to TK and let him  speak for himself.

                           

                          Message was edited by: Hudechrome

                          • 10. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                            Tim Lookingbill Level 1

                            Well I can tell you from working extensively with ACR's HSL panel ALL eight color adjusts have been very useful in a variety of scenes I've shot mainly from nature and some product shots for achieving visual accuracy that a custom profile couldn't cover.

                             

                            Various types of lighting and color temp casts in combination with spectral reflectance properties of various objects having colors that fall into all eight color zones in the scene captured will shift hues up and down the entire ACR HSL zones where some subject's color content may need adjustments that span into at the most three hue zones even though they look as one color.

                             

                            I've had to edit image's with skies where both blue, aqua and sometimes even purple needed to be adjusted to reduce noise artifacts making single color adjustments. 100% view is definitely required editing with the HSL panel to see this noise.

                             

                            Even objects that look red in a scene may have subtle reflections that have to be edited with the yellow and orange channel even though these colors aren't evident. Adjusting only red doesn't make a dent and only kicks up noise in these areas. And if there's a shine on this red object (glossy paint job), even though it looks neutral, most of the time in my experience the blue and agua channels have to be edited because of optical tricks to the eyes (maybe adaptation) no numbering system can anticipate for.

                             

                            I don't think TK designed ACR color tools to allow the user to rely solely on painting by numbers to get desired results whether accurate or pleasing.

                            • 11. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                              Vit Novak Level 3

                              Jeff Schewe wrote:

                               

                              Vit Novak wrote:

                               

                              HSL indicator (as alternative to RGB) would be usefull anyway (to check hues during adjustments in ACR etc)

                               

                              Except ACR's HSL isn't a standard hue distribution since it has 2 additional colors (oranges & purples) and aquas is different than cyan. So, I'm not sure what the color readouts would give you since they only live in ACR and LR.

                               

                              Well, Photoshop has info tool, where I can get RGB, HSL and other information about current color under the mouse cursor. ACR has only RGB indicator. Sometimes, I want to check for instance hue range of skin or sky on my photos. Since there is no such information in ACR, I made a small pixel picker program to get it, not a big deal, but maybe someone else would find it useful ...

                               

                              HSL sliders are useful, although ... they also seem to be working in Photo Pro, so sometimes they are producing non-intuitive results. For instance, changing saturation also changes hue in output color space, which is usually sRGB in my case ... so a checkbox to make them working in selected output color space instead in Photo Pro would be fine, although I'm not sure that it will happen because it probably requires significant changes in the code (unlike mentioned HSL indicator) ...

                              • 12. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                Hudechrome Level 2

                                Well, maybe it's my palette then. I do some wild color swings especially when setting up an image for grayscale conversion. Artifacts, noise and banding sometimes run rampant, no most of the time run rampant when I really push the edges.

                                 

                                At any rate, Aqua does nothing for me,. Purple does, it's a kind of vernier for magenta, in one sense of it anyway, and I make use of it frequently. But Magenta was not dropped for Purple, but it seems that Cyan was dropped and we have Aqua, which remains an orphan adjustment while for cyan, I have to wait for PS to deal with it. For instance, the color of the sky immediately above the horizon is better controlled with Cyan. Aqua does nothing there, with very rare exceptions and in narrow bands, exacerbating banding after conversion.

                                 

                                Controlling artifacts with HSL is new to me. Thanks for bringing it up. What are you seeing?

                                 

                                I rarely go for accuracy, but rather emotional effect. So any control I can bring into play I certainly do! I do a great deal of color manipulation with the B&W conversion, by using the Luminosity Blending mode. I can get pretty far fetched.

                                 

                                The name "Hudechrome" is not specious. I was doing this kind of color manipulation on location well before I went digital and devised a patentable system to do it. Hudechrome is what I named the process. It is derived from my last name.

                                 

                                I respect and admire the work Adobe engineers do, from TK on. If I didn't do so, I would not be using it nor championing it to others. And if something doesn't work, I say so. Mostly it's me, but not always.

                                • 13. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                  Tim Lookingbill Level 1
                                  Controlling artifacts with HSL is new to me. Thanks for bringing it up. What are you seeing?
                                  Tertiary color distortion is mainly what I see as noise, not anything sensor electronics induced though sometimes it does pop up as color noise but mainly in shadows.
                                  If you have a painting background as I do you'll note all colored objects whether synthetic or natural build their density transitions most often using tertiary and layered transparent complimentary colors referencing a simple color wheel which ACR's HSL is designed to control. This is what gives an object the perception of depth viewed in a 2D environment. A red object isn't only red as I described previously.
                                  A DSLR sensor is more sensitive than you might think in seeing colors the eye doesn't readily pick up on and vice versa. You can't add in color that the sensor didn't capture. You can change it's HSL to an extent, beyond that you'll have to resort to Selective color tool in Photoshop. If aqua isn't in your image and you remember seeing it in the original scene, then the sensor wasn't sensitive enough to pick up on it. The farther away the lens is from an object as in a landscape, the less the sensor can distinguish color variances.
                                  Sometimes I get blobs of blurred background bokeh of tree foliage mixed with blue sky with noticeable purple/blue fringing where leaving aqua alone and only editing blue and purple will smooth out banding in the transitions between flat sky color and the fringing. Sometimes applying a flat section in point curve to the highlights where these transitions lie does wonders at fixing this.
                                  If you're only converting color to B&W, you have plenty of control using both HSL and the point curve along with the tools in the Details panel (sharpening and noise). You can even do duotone and sepia tone treatments using Split Tone combined with color temp adjusts which can give you tritone B&W but it takes fiddling and playing around with the tools and then maybe finish off in Photoshop.
                                  If you're working by emotion rather than accuracy then you really do need to forget the numbers and use your eyes like I do.
                                  • 14. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                    Tim Lookingbill Level 1

                                    Can't figure out how to fix formating. What happen to paragraph spaces.

                                    • 15. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                      Tim Lookingbill Level 1

                                      "Controlling artifacts with HSL is new to me. Thanks for bringing it up.

                                      What are you seeing?"...

                                       

                                       

                                      Tertiary color distortion is mainly what I see as noise, not anything sensor electronics induced though sometimes it does pop up as color noise but mainly in shadows.

                                       

                                      If you have a painting background as I do you'll note all colored objects whether synthetic or natural build their density transitions most often using tertiary and layered transparent complimentary colors referencing a simple color wheel which ACR's HSL is designed to control. This is what gives an object the perception of depth viewed in a 2D environment. A red object isn't only red as I described previously.

                                       

                                      A DSLR sensor is more sensitive than you might think in seeing colors the eye doesn't readily pick up on and vice versa. You can't add in color that the sensor didn't capture. You can change it's HSL to an extent, beyond that you'll have to resort to Selective color tool in Photoshop. If aqua isn't in your image and you remember seeing it in the original scene, then the sensor wasn't sensitive enough to pick up on it. The farther away the lens is from an object as in a landscape, the less the sensor can distinguish color variances.

                                       

                                      Sometimes I get blobs of blurred background bokeh of tree foliage mixed with blue sky with noticeable purple/blue fringing where leaving aqua alone and only editing blue and purple will smooth out banding in the transitions between flat sky color and the fringing. Sometimes applying a flat section in point curve to the highlights where these transitions lie does wonders at fixing this.

                                       

                                      If you're only converting color to B&W, you have plenty of control using both HSL and the point curve along with the tools in the Details panel (sharpening and noise). You can even do duotone and sepia tone treatments using Split Tone combined with color temp adjusts which can give you tritone B&W but it takes fiddling and playing around with the tools and then maybe finish off in Photoshop.

                                       

                                      If you're working by emotion rather than accuracy then you really do need to forget the numbers and use your eyes like I do.

                                      • 16. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                        Hudechrome Level 2

                                        Thanks for the reply. No, I don't have a painting background, so your comments concerning  layered transitions are new to me, at least in the analytical.

                                         

                                        I have a great deal of problems with color names. The huge array of oils, watercolors and such in an arts supply store with their fanciful names put me to rout! While I do explore the emotional side of camera work, knowing the numbers is equally important because of my long years in electrical engineering. I know, for instance, that the perception of a certain color is influenced by it's surrounds, sometimes profoundly. So, when I am looking at what appears to be a white reference, I want 120,120,120, or whatever the value is. I may not stay there, many times I don't but I know where things are headed.

                                         

                                        I can't imagine that my D90 or D80, for that matter, cannot see aqua. That would mean all the cameras Nikon produces using the D90 sensor have this problem.

                                         

                                        Did I see aqua? Back to nomenclature. What is aqua? Aqua means among other things water. Aquarius means water bearer.Here is one dictionary's set of definitions. Look at the Thesaurus. All those names are the same? Greenish blue is the same as bluish green?

                                         

                                        http://www.thefreedictionary.com/aqua

                                         

                                        I'll not likely ever be a painter. Painters, like musicians know these terms. Music is filled with them with plenty of overlaps. I can listen to a pice of music never heard before and get within one semitone of it on the piano first try. But I don't have perfect pitch. So I assume if I were to take up painting and devote the next 10,000 hrs or so to developing that skill, I may indeed recognize the subtle colors by name.

                                         

                                        Aqua= greenish blue. Well, I thought cyan was greenish blue, but there is no equivalency between the two as applied in Photoshop.. For me anyway.

                                         

                                        I've seen that blobiness myself, Tim. Next time I'll go deeper into it Thanks.

                                         

                                        Jeff, if you are reading this and have gotten this far, let me say this about "experience" and "creditability"  First off, you know I have experience in software testing. Never in my work did I ever have someone prove his point by pulling rank. Never. Software people get pretty deep into the subject. I am certain that TK and others worked HSL over quite thoroughly. The Orange and the Purple sliders do give me a freedom to finesse as never before, and I revel in it. But if your folks are anything like the people I worked with, someone winds up keeping them honest and away from wishful thinking, which gets more and more necessary with which to deal as release approaches. My job was, besides the technical validation work like smoke test etc, was to also inform them when the emperor is losing his clothes.  What was nice about it is that we, the validation group, had the power to stop on a dime, and force a resolution. So I have no compunction in speaking up here.

                                         

                                        Nor am I concerned about being vetted by you. It's not the first time I have been confronted by people here saying "Do you know who he is?" as if I should never dare to be so outspoken. My answer is yes, but do they know who I am?

                                         

                                        One really can't know, and vetting all your responders takes way too much time and bandwidth. So, assume some experience and creditability is where the best in the world have always proceeded, like Einstein.

                                         

                                        Lawrence

                                        • 17. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                          Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                          Hudechrome wrote:

                                           

                                          My job was, besides the technical validation work like smoke test etc, was to also inform them when the emperor is losing his clothes.  What was nice about it is that we, the validation group, had the power to stop on a dime, and force a resolution. So I have no compunction in speaking up here.

                                           

                                           

                                          Except I seriously doubt you've run into somebody quite like Thomas in his skills, talents and experience. Thomas is a very unique case; coauthor of Photoshop, founder & primary engineer for Camera Raw and generally being useful and productive in the digital imaging industry (which he helped create) for over 20 years. It gives him a considerable track record ya know?

                                           

                                          So when some yaya with an anonymous screen name posts here in the forums asking "whose bright ideas was THAT", I'm prolly not gonna give that yaya any street cred what so ever. And saying you have been involved with software development ain't the same showing examples of your work. Who did you work fr? what did you produce? Actually, what's your name? All would go towards establishing some sort of legitimacy beyond an anonymous screen name.

                                           

                                          If you have any technical info regarding why the spectral coordinate of Aquas isn't working for you, present it. But simply saying it don't float your boat isn't particularly useful.

                                           

                                          Oh, and by the way, in the future if you want to know why something is the way it is in ACR or why it works the way it does, you should now already know the answer–although Eric Chan has also been making some special contributions as well such as the 6.x noise reduction.

                                          • 18. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                            Hudechrome Level 2

                                            I am only anonymous because when Adobe switched to Jive, I became identified with my e-mail and not Lawrence Hudetz, which you would find in the former forums. So, you are also jumping to conclusions. I have no problem using Lawrence Hudetz as my sign-in name and you may call me Lawrence, not Hudechrome.

                                             

                                            Again, you have no understanding of my background, and assume minimal. How dare you assume I don't know anyone as unique as TK? My inital work graduating college was at Argonne National Labs, working with PhD's in Nuclear physics whose brilliance is matchless doing neutron measurements woth linacs..

                                             

                                            The founder of Tektronix is also of that capability, whom I also knew when I put 15 year with them. That's where I learned not to be flummoxed by rank. I would have never survived there if I did.

                                             

                                            So, I am familiar with them, and as my software validation was at Intel, I suspect a few brilliant individuals populate those halls.

                                             

                                            I deeply resent being characterized as a ya ya. I therefore will never buy any book you publish as I will not give creditablity to you by actually spending money.

                                             

                                            I hope Adobe takes notice of your direct insults and the blatant ad hominems you employ to attempt to discridit a poster. I know neither Chris or Eric engage in such behavior.

                                             

                                            Yes, I have no technical knowledge why Aqua does not work in my use. I posted here because the subject came up and I had been intending to put in my experience of it at an appropriate time. I didn't consider it a top priotity. Ok, I was a bit "acid",my apologies if I offended TK. Or anyone else. I do expect he can take care of himself, however. I also  suspect, but of course, do not know, that he would look past the quip and ask serious questions. But for starters, don't you want basic input? Can you point to a test I might make to validate and even quantify my general finding? Or doesn't it matter?

                                             

                                            Lawrence Hudetz

                                            • 19. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                              Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                              Hudechrome wrote:

                                               

                                              I hope Adobe takes notice of your direct insults and the blatant ad hominems you employ to attempt to discridit a poster.

                                               

                                              To what end? I don't work for Adobe (although I sometimes work with Adobe).

                                               

                                              Hudechrome wrote:

                                               

                                              Yes, I have no technical knowledge why Aqua does not work in my use. I posted here because the subject came up and I had been intending to put in my experience of it at an appropriate time. I didn't consider it a top priotity.

                                               

                                              The very fact that you think Aquas relate to sky might be an indication that your expectations regarding Aquas is in error. If you look at a ColorChecker chart you can see the colors that Aquas slider adjusts. Generally, for pretty much any sky you'll want to be adjusting the Blues. I'm pretty sure the reason it was decided to modify the spectral coordinate from the traditional cyan to the Aquas is it allows a better hue rotation when taken into account with the other 7 colors.

                                               

                                              If you are not sure what color the sliders control, I would suggest using the TAT (Targeted Adjustment Tool) that allows for multiple sliders to be moved at once based on the specific color under the TAT cursor.

                                              • 20. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                Hudechrome Level 2

                                                Nonetheless, you are seen as some sort of rep. You have the ear of the clan there and most likely participate in meetings from time to time. And when you answer, usually you are it.  If you don't, Eric shows up or a suitable employee. So you are some sort of de facto spokes person.

                                                 

                                                And no, I am not so stupid to look only at sky tones. I investigate the entire image. Since it didn't show up there or in water, I decided to find out where it does by gross adjustments to highlight the area.

                                                 

                                                I do use the Blue control most often, but as I said earlier, when in PS using cyan controls gets me tweaks between the horizon and the deeper blue sky especially when clouds lay above the horizon. I can effect a change there with far less change elsewhere that a primary color would effect. True of Purple and Orange as well. Orange does a nice balancing act between Yellow and Red (Duh! ). Purple reduces the obnoxiosness that Magenta sometimes provides. I prefer it. It's just that Aqua does next to nothing for me and my palette, and what I mean by that is it's either unnoticeable at all or sometimes, barely, even if you run, say, Sat to a max or min. Even with that control set to a max limit, going back to Hue shows a tiny change, if at all. Big changes show up in the primaries, as expected.

                                                 

                                                I use TAT fairly often. I have some critiques of it as well, including how to pick the colors. For that, I can post that elsewhere when I get that organized. It's a wonderful tool that I would like to have in PS as well, or a substantial version of it. I'll check the HSL numbers next time I use it.

                                                 

                                                My biggest critique of ACR...no history! Really, really a problem when doing multiple adjustments with TAT. Sometimes I abandon the effort entirely and reset to -0-.

                                                 

                                                Your suggestion to use a ColorChecker will be implemented.Thank you

                                                 

                                                Lawrence

                                                • 21. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                  Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                  Hudechrome wrote:

                                                   

                                                  My biggest critique of ACR...no history! Really, really a problem when doing multiple adjustments with TAT. Sometimes I abandon the effort entirely and reset to -0-.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  ACR does indeed have multiple undo. Command (Control) Z toggles between the last two states. Command/Option (Control/Alt) Z goes back in time and Command/Shift (Control/Shift) Z goes forward in time. Note, I think there's only 100 states and it's not stored in the file so it's active only while the file is open in ACR.

                                                  • 22. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                    Tim Lookingbill Level 1

                                                    I understand Lawrence's frustration with the Aqua slider. I sometimes get very little results using this slider on cyan sky close to horizon but it's easily fixed.

                                                     

                                                    See the screenshots below of the posterized transitions in blobs of blue sky bokeh showing very little affect adjusting the Aqua hue slider on what clearly looks aqua/cyan. Note that adjusting contrast using Auto Tone and applying +5 Recovery to prevent the blue channel from clipping pretty much cleared it up and smoothed the transitions. The last is adjusting color temp slider to a cooler/neutral looking color cast even though the sun was low in the sky. Note the posterized transitions are back.

                                                     

                                                    I had several different options to fix these bad transitions one of them being the Point Curve, but this is just to demonstrate how pliable working in 16 bit Raw space allows several ways to get what you want without relying solely on one tool like the HSL panel.

                                                     

                                                    I'ld suggest everyone get to know how all of ACR's/LR's tools affect a wide range of images shot under different conditions. Otherwise don't shoot Raw.

                                                     

                                                    ACR-HSL-Aqua-Bokeh.jpg

                                                    • 24. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                      Hudechrome Level 2

                                                      Nice Tim.Thanks.


                                                      It would be nice to have all the tools under one's command before sallying forth to do battle in the RAW, but it is still better shooting RAW and not having all mastery than to shoot jpeg and not be able to recover RAW once mastery is achieved. There are images that don't quite work yet which I shelve until I learn a few more things. I have a few which I can use to investigate your technique.

                                                       

                                                      As to the color of your images, I see more of a reddish value to the blue than cyan, especially the ACR default image. Right at the edge of the white it's definitely reddish.

                                                      • 25. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                        Hudechrome Level 2

                                                        Um, a correction. I was thinking Adjustment Brush, not TAT when we were discussing TAT. So my remarks are for the Adjustment Brush.

                                                        • 26. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                          Hudechrome Level 2

                                                          ACR in PS5 does not have Auto tone. I presume you are using LR, Tim.

                                                           

                                                          At least, I can't find it and a search on Adobe returns LR.

                                                          • 27. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                            Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                            Hudechrome wrote:

                                                             

                                                            ACR in PS5 does not have Auto tone.

                                                             

                                                            It's the Auto button on the Basic panel. Clicking the Auto will apply a best guess setting for Exposure, Recovery, Fill Light, Blacks, Brightness & Contrast.

                                                            • 28. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                              Hudechrome Level 2

                                                              Oh, that Auto. Tim said Auto Tone and it does exist along with Auto Contrast and Auto Color in PS Under the "Image" menu. I was looking for that.

                                                               

                                                              If I use ACR Auto to compensate for what Tim is showing, the entire image goes bananas!  (Bananas is a technical term). Auto tone in CS5 is much more circumspect.

                                                              • 29. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                Level 4

                                                                Larry,

                                                                 

                                                                Don't let your personal opinion of Mr. Schewe, based on the perception of the tenor of posts you have exchanged with him, keep you from buying THE book.  It's more than worth it.

                                                                 

                                                                I'm saying this because I have respect for his expertise, and because I actually like him despite having personally been told by him, publicly and literally, to go perform an anatomically impossible act on myself

                                                                 

                                                                You can only gain from reading the book.  Remember, the lion consists of assimilated sheep.

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                ____________

                                                                Wo Tai Lao Le

                                                                我太老了

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                P.S.— OFF TOPIC: If you get the rebroadcasts in High Definition of the Met performances in a movie theater in your area, don't miss Renée Fleming in Richard Strauß's Capriccio on April 23, 2011 at 1:00 pm ET (U.S. Encore: Wednesday, May 11, 2011, 6:30 p.m. PST).

                                                                http://www.metoperafamily.org/metopera/broadcast/hd_events_next.aspx

                                                                • 30. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                  Tim Lookingbill Level 1

                                                                  Sorry for the confusion over the name Auto Tone. I did mean clicking the Auto button in ACR as Jeff cleared up which I thank him for. My main point I didn't want lost in that demo is the fact that a Raw image is very pliable almost like sculpting clay when editing. Wasn't trying to make a finished image.

                                                                   

                                                                  As for the red color of the cyan/blue bokeh blob I can assure you according to the RGB numbers it's cyan/aqua. See the screenshot of my calibrated iMac's DigitalColor Meter readouts below. Since you are seeing red, your calibration may be in question and may or may not be preventing you from seeing colors the HSL panel can't possibly influence. Not sure.

                                                                   

                                                                  CyanNOTredAdobeForums.jpg

                                                                  • 31. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                    Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                    It's a mixed bag. Yes he has expertise. And yes, I have to put  up with similar relationships in the past. PhD's included! But at some point I draw the line.

                                                                     

                                                                    Besides, I never said I wouldn't read it!

                                                                     

                                                                    Thanks for the heads up about Renee. She is giving a recital in Portland but a year from now.

                                                                     

                                                                    I have a couple of recommendations for you:

                                                                     

                                                                    Ceclia Bartoli Double CD named "Sospiri" The recording is not only notable for her command of the voice which never fails to make me rejoice that so magnificent a sound can come from the human voice, but the Decca recording well, you simply have to hear it. The opening selection has a solo for oboe and I swear I can hear the subtle sound changes as the player's mouth manipulates the reed. I hear it often live, especially if I am on stage during rehearsal, but never so well as in this recording. And my speakers are 40 years old! The recording simply has presence, in spades.

                                                                     

                                                                    The other is Jessye Norman doing the Strauss Four Last Songs.Slowest version ever (Im Abendrot at 10 min.) and she brings it off.

                                                                     

                                                                    Perhaps we should carry this on in the lounge or by e-mail.

                                                                     

                                                                    I now return you to the regularly scheduled broadcast!

                                                                    • 32. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                      Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                      I don't trust anything I see on line. I hesitated even mentioning it because of that but decided to go ahead. I am well calibrated but the monitor is beginning to show it's age. I get excellent matching between the 3800 and the screen, especially with high end papers

                                                                       

                                                                      The Auto button , well, not exactly a button, commits hari kari on most of my images so it isn't likely an option to correct such a subtle effect. I did try it on an image having such a pattern between blue sky and ephemeral cloud edges.

                                                                       

                                                                      I did force Aqua to show up. Adjusting the Blue L slider to minimum causes a deep blue to appear.  I ran Aqua up to max, and along the fuzzy edge between the clouds and the sky, no longer ephemeral, the color shifted notably.

                                                                      • 33. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                        Level 4

                                                                        Thanks, Larry.  Yes, this off-topic conversation fits better in another venue.

                                                                         

                                                                        I'll look for the Bartoli CD, but I'm not getting anywhere near Ms Just Enormous most especially in the »Vier letzte Lieder« where I'd be comparing her to Elisabeth Schwarzkopf's gem of a recording.  Sorry, to me Just Enormous has always sounded pretty much like how she looks. Ouch!

                                                                        • 34. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                          Manovi Level 1

                                                                          Jeff,

                                                                           

                                                                          Regarding value reading available in ACR:

                                                                           

                                                                          Because most of the skin tone retouching (I mean the color of skin, not the texture) is yet made referring to the CMYK mode values (At least, in literature, this is described as the easiest way), do You think that adding the CMYK profiles (to show CMYK values, not to convert and export in CMYK, of course) and CMYK value reading would be useful or feasible in ACR?

                                                                           

                                                                          Thank You

                                                                           

                                                                          Massimo

                                                                          • 35. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                            Level 4

                                                                            As I suspected, it would seem that followers of Dan Margulis are behind this. 

                                                                            • 36. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                              Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                              Manovi wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              do You think that adding the CMYK profiles (to show CMYK values, not to convert and export in CMYK, of course) and CMYK value reading would be useful or feasible in ACR?

                                                                               

                                                                              No, I don't think so...same issue as with Lab. Since ACR can't output CMYK, then any readings in CMYK would be scifi. How would you specify WHAT CMYK profile the readouts would use? What are the odds that the final CMYK would match the readouts? Not very good I would think.

                                                                               

                                                                              The color readouts in ACR are based directly on the chosen Workflow Options color space. That's the only really accurate way of sampling the colors.

                                                                              • 37. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                                Tim Lookingbill Level 1

                                                                                I use CMYK as guide for skin tones in Photoshop, but I've come across its limitations concerning adaptation's affect on the perception of the right amount of yellow to magenta that's primarily affected by the over all color cast in an image. Color constancy is an evil optical trick on the eyes especially for skin retouchers.

                                                                                 

                                                                                You would not believe how many times I've re-edited skin tones that have an R=G=B neutral object in the scene only to see that caucasian skin either looks too pink or too orange or too jaundice. It didn't matter what CMYK combo I tried.

                                                                                 

                                                                                An experiment I tried just yesterday adjusting color temp to look pleasing in an outdoor shot of a tall, white cylinder shaped chimney lit by the sun low in the sky. The camera's default WB made it look too reddish orange where the shadows looked warm. As I adjusted the WB to a cooler setting, the lit side of the chimney started to look neutral but still retained some warmth. The shadows didn't turn blue yet and still looked neutral. I continued making the image look cooler adjusting ACR's color temp slider to where the shadows started to look bluish. Waited a couple of minutes for my eyes to adjust and all of a sudden the sunlit side of the white chimney looked WARMER! Uh?!

                                                                                 

                                                                                This is why asking HSL to do most of the heavy lifting for fixing PERCEIVED color isn't always the best solution. I think mine and Lawrence's very own perception of what looks cyan/aqua supports this.

                                                                                 

                                                                                The red in the purplish blue surround in the bokeh makes "baby blue"(which is what it actually now looks to me) look cyan to me when I first looked at it in ACR's default setting.

                                                                                • 38. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                                  nortj Level 1

                                                                                   

                                                                                  It would be great to be able to do nondestructive color correction in ACR. You can’t even have a conversation about common colors (except for neutral) in RGB. To say things like Caucasian skin tones should have “a” and “b” channels about equal (“a” being slightly higher for babies and pink Irish girls and “b” being slightly higher for the rest of us) is not meaningful in RGB. Also, with common skies “b” is negative and “a” is close to zero, and common greenery “a” has a negative value and b is positive and has an absolute value equal or greater than the value than the “a” value. You can’t even have a meaningful conversation about color correction with RGB values! To do fast accurate color correction by the numbers, you need the Lab values. Doing color correction visually is overrated because you can’t calibrate your eyes!

                                                                                  • 39. Re: Need lab color info in Camera Raw.
                                                                                    Tim Lookingbill Level 1

                                                                                    So what do you do about the optical effects of color relationships I described here?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    What if the Lab numbers are accurate according to yours or anyone's definition of what memory colors should look like but don't deliver pleasing results?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I've often participated in a few online color correction requests on landscapes to portraits where several folks applied their own take on the correction and posted their results along with mine. I went loosely by the Lab/CMYK numbers keeping in mind the effects of WB on color perception. The owner of said image who requested the corrections liked someone else's color treatment and said it looked more accurate to what they saw even though the memory colors looked way off and nothing close to the Lab numbers.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    Others who participated in the discussion commented mine was the most true to natural color especially in the skin tones. There were about seven different renderings of the same image posted in that thread. Everyone seemed to have a mastery of Photoshop skills as they lined out their methods of correction in the thread.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    How do you explain that? Is everyone color blind?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I'll admit on several of these correction request threads I even had to go back and correct myself because the white of the browser page after posting it inline into the thread totally changed my perception of the colors. Skin that looked a pleasing orangish brown tan in Photoshop with a neutral gray background now looked magenta-ish in the browser even though it was color managed. There was no change to the color numbers between the Photoshop and browser version previews. 

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