4 Replies Latest reply on Apr 7, 2011 8:58 AM by AtonMusic

    Solution to Gamma/Color Shift Problems with Apple Codecs - Adobe BUG

    AtonMusic Level 2

      Hi....

       

      In AfterEffects when choosing an output module and that module be ProRes or 10 Bit Uncompressed,

      when trying to color manage the file, there is a fine line called

       

      'This Codec Does Not Support Output Profile'

       

      You can find it int he Color Management Pane of the output module....

       

       

      Funny thing is - That Profile Embedding IS support by:#

       

      Apple's Compressor and THE CODEC 4444 AND UnCompressed

      Episodes Encoder

       

      See following Screen Shots:

       

      First one from Apple's Compressor...

       

      Look at that little beautiful Color Option... Adobe did you MISS that one, perhaps...

      You must have - because your APPS are NOT including that when encoding or should I say

      butchering movie files....

       

      Screen shot 2011-04-07 at 5.55.30 AM.png

       

       

      Here adobes famous but wrong dialog!!!!

       

      Screen shot 2011-04-07 at 5.43.54 AM.png

       

      And in this next screen shot you can easily see that adobe just strips the color profile out of the file...

       

      AND THAT IS WHY THERE IS A COLOR SHIFT...........

       

      left image = Apple's Compressor Encoding (Colors match of course) - Right Adobe's BRUTAL encoding (Colors WONT match...)

      Screen shot 2011-04-07 at 5.49.17 AM.png

       

      Now, in after effects you wont notice the shift. But ALL mac and PC users using quicktime to watch YOUR movies

      are going to be looking at a movie with a different look than you thought it WOULD be... Courtesy of adobe ;-)

       

      Jokes aside, Adobe.... It seems as if this one is on you to fix... Apple's Compressor has NO problems. And other encoders are also preserving those values.

       

      Now... Let us assume that I encode in compressor... Looks are matching 100% that of the original source. All it takes to mess that up is ONE

      roundtrip to after effects, premiere pro or Media Encoder. That is if I wanna maintain my initial choice of transcodec - in my case 4444 or 10bit Uncomp.

      I could of course export to animation and then use compressor AGAIN to transcode to my format of choice... But in the long run I think that will become tedious.

       

      Perhaps you could assign a few engineers on this one and in the future spend MORE time on living up to the name PRO(The most misused word in the software business) instead of wasting time generating new Application icons for your apps....

       

      Thanks for reading and for a PROMPT and near-future BUG FIX

        • 1. Re: Solution to Gamma/Color Shift Problems with Apple Codecs - Adobe BUG
          Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

          Funny thing is - That Profile Embedding IS support by:#

           

          It doesn't. Genuine color profiles are a different thing than stream flags, which is all that you get with these CoDecs.

           

          Mylenium

          • 2. Re: Solution to Gamma/Color Shift Problems with Apple Codecs - Adobe BUG
            AtonMusic Level 2

            Mylenium wrote:

             

            Funny thing is - That Profile Embedding IS support by:#

             

            It doesn't. Genuine color profiles are a different thing than stream flags, which is all that you get with these CoDecs.

             

            Mylenium

            I was not referring to the ICC Color Profiles... Sorry..

             

            Referring to the Color Space Profile...

             

            Fact is that adobes encoders are ignoring those completely or leaving them out.

             

            And that is where your shift or should I say lack of, is coming from when viewed in the quicktime playa...

             

            While that shift aint there when viewed in After Effects... You musn't neglect to comprehend that NO CONSUMER

            is watching his movies in after effects. He is watching them in Quicktime (Others apply of course) and in there the adobe encoded

            material DOES NOT TRANSLATE...

             

            One can ignore this all he wants - in the end... The fact remains... That the VIDEO that I want to show MY audience does NOT look

            the way I intended it to look.

            • 3. Re: Solution to Gamma/Color Shift Problems with Apple Codecs - Adobe BUG
              Mylenium Most Valuable Participant

              It's not really "embedding" anything, it merely sets the QT color space flags which have been there forever, but are mostly unused. Specific to ProRes it also toggles different internal optimizations in the encoding. That's also documented somewhere on the QT developer pages. I'm not sure I share your views otherwise. The point really is, that Apple developed ProRes just as much as a closed workflow within their products as Avid did with their CoDecs. Therefore the widespread use of the CoDecs is merely a byproduct of the use of the products, but not per se an intended workflow outside of those and, which is the more important part, also not explicable as a causal circumstance of the quality. If I may be so bold: What you are saying sounds like everyone would be using the Animation CoDec because it is so good, when the simple fact is that there are no decent free cross-platform alternatives and people are willing to accept limitations because of that. Don't get me wrong, ProRes is well designed and pretty robust, but the world doesn't come to an end without it and outside the Mac world it is difficult to deal with. Hell, it's even difficult to deal with between different versions of FCP occasionally...

               

              Mylenium

              • 4. Re: Solution to Gamma/Color Shift Problems with Apple Codecs - Adobe BUG
                AtonMusic Level 2

                Mylenium wrote:

                 

                It's not really "embedding" anything, it merely sets the QT color space flags which have been there forever, but are mostly unused. Specific to ProRes it also toggles different internal optimizations in the encoding. That's also documented somewhere on the QT developer pages. I'm not sure I share your views otherwise. The point really is, that Apple developed ProRes just as much as a closed workflow within their products as Avid did with their CoDecs. Therefore the widespread use of the CoDecs is merely a byproduct of the use of the products, but not per se an intended workflow outside of those and, which is the more important part, also not explicable as a causal circumstance of the quality. If I may be so bold: What you are saying sounds like everyone would be using the Animation CoDec because it is so good, when the simple fact is that there are no decent free cross-platform alternatives and people are willing to accept limitations because of that. Don't get me wrong, ProRes is well designed and pretty robust, but the world doesn't come to an end without it and outside the Mac world it is difficult to deal with. Hell, it's even difficult to deal with between different versions of FCP occasionally...

                 

                Mylenium

                I have been testing codecs for a long long looooooong time. My criterion(s) are:

                 

                1) Image Quality and that through multiple encoding generations and color grading

                 

                THEEEN

                 

                a looooong way down the road

                 

                 

                2) Performance

                 

                BTW - I find that working with files less compressed and thus HUGE is much better. Hard drives are so cheap that one can build himself an 8 Disk RAID0 and that takes care of everything. In PPRO I can cut real time in FulRes with an uncompressed codec with the processors maxing at 3%  while the H264 editing sequence will stutter like a drunken wasp and maxing the CPUs at 63%.... Go figure...

                 

                ProRes 4444's impeccable imageQuality:performance ratio, is unbeaten.

                Especially on H264 material like that of the Canon5D. You might say if the source is 4:2:0 why bother upping it to 4444... Well in theory perhaps

                it is overkill. But rather than reading in theoretical white papers I conduct my own tests. And the end results are (REALITY) and way different from what theory states. TO anyone reading this. DONT believe ANYTHING you read about codec nor what I am saying.... DO YOUR OWN TESTING and judge for yourself. Problem is that you have to do 100's and 100's of transcodings with ONE source to various destinations with lost of grading and transcoding generation. THEN you have to keep track of your tests and THEN compare them. It takes WEEKs. But it is well worth while it. In my case... I start with a Canon5DMKII H264 movies. Transcode it to PRORES4444 then I do LOTS of compositing and re-encoding then lots of color grading etc etc etc. Then I export back to H264 - and the end result is STUNNING has NO artifacts and is adorable to look at. Not so with at least 6 other codecs claiming to be top-notch....

                 

                Sure Mylenium, the world would NOT end with PR4444 not in it... BUT the WORLD has ALREADY decided that it WANTED ProRes4444 in it. It is growing and that every day..........

                 

                Had the codec not been so darn excellent - it would NOT have been used. Period.