1 2 Previous Next 40 Replies Latest reply on Aug 25, 2011 5:49 PM by Mr. Met

    Muse anybody?

    peterpica Level 1

      What the expected release date of Muse? I really liked what I saw in the pre-release movie clip. If it's half as good as I think, then say prayers for Dreamweaver, Freeway Pro & Sitegrinder too. BUT...their idea of a subscription plan really sucks, at least for independent freelancers IMHO.

        • 1. Re: Muse anybody?
          longhair101 Level 1

          peterpica wrote:

           

          What the expected release date of Muse? I really liked what I saw in the pre-release movie clip. If it's half as good as I think, then say prayers for Dreamweaver, Freeway Pro & Sitegrinder too. BUT...their idea of a subscription plan really sucks, at least for independent freelancers IMHO.

          I was really set to like this too, until I saw the pricing. The idea of someone subscribing to software I think is a little laughable, unless your target audience is large Corporations or big shot top 5% money making designers. The rest of us will just keep having to use dreamweaver.

           

          Really this is not well thought out.

           

          Although it makes sense to update muse constantly because standards are constantly changing, and it seems affordable if a small time guy just wants to knock out a couple of web jobs one month and then drop it until more big web jobs come in, but what about keeping familiar with the program in the down time?

           

          If you pick up a big web job every couple of months and only subscribe when you need it, you'd have all this downtime when you can't open the program and play around, so you'll forget a lot about how to use it.

           

          Each time you resubscribe for a big web job, you'll have to waste a few hours or even days, re-learning and remembering how the program works.

           

          So I guess you'll just have to pay the whole year if you want to keep your skills up in between web projects.

           

          Yeah, that's going to work just great for the bulk of designers out their, especially the little guys, small shops and the freelancers.

           

          Dreamweaver I'm sure will still have many happy days.

          • 2. Re: Muse anybody?
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            I'm not particularly enamored of subscription pricing, either, but I think the cost is pretty reasonable for what you get. Compare a 1 year subscription to buying a full license for ID, and then buying the upgrade every year. Muse looks like a short-term bargain.

            • 3. Re: Muse anybody?
              longhair101 Level 1

              P Spier wrote:

               

              I'm not particularly enamored of subscription pricing, either, but I think the cost is pretty reasonable for what you get. Compare a 1 year subscription to buying a full license for ID, and then buying the upgrade every year. Muse looks like a short-term bargain.

              Why not just charge $180, give the buyer 365 days of free upgrades from time of activation, and then afterwards let the user evaluate whether he needs to repurchase another 365 days of free upgrades, while letting the program continue to run un-updated?

              • 4. Re: Muse anybody?
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                That would be very nice, but the reality is that they can't (or at least won't) sell a license that lasts forever for $180. A standalone for Dreamweaver is $400, ID is $700. Two years of subscription is less than the initail price for either of those, and then they cost just as much to maintain.

                 

                Remember, I said I was not a fan, but it makes business sense to do it this way at those price points. You copuld also buy on a per-project basis -- $20 for each time you need the program, and you get to use it for a whole month.

                • 5. Re: Muse anybody?
                  longhair101 Level 1

                  Well than I don't get it. The software is aimed at designers that don't have coding and web skills, yet it projects to it's potential users this elitist attitude of, "if you can't afford to pay for this every day, you really shouldn't be using it at all..." But it's aimed at non-web skilled designers that normally don't make web pages... ?  who are they marketing this product to... ?

                  • 6. Re: Muse anybody?
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    Well possibly me. I don't do any web work at the moment. But I might be tempted to spend $20 to use it for a month to get a project done, then not touch it again for 6 months or a year, at which point I would spend another $20. That seems like a good deal to me for the kind of use I need. If you do a lot of web work, I think the cost is even more in line with a normal business expense. I have to budget to keep ID, Photoshop and Illustrator up to date ( or at least as up to date as I want to be), and that's just part of my overhead as a professional in order to stay competitive.

                     

                    I would say it's the "prosumer" or serious amateur who wants to use it for fun rather than make a living who will have trouble with the subscription. Now think about if you have internet service, cell phone, or cable tv? Do you pay for those things by the month? Do you expect to be able to continue to use them if you cancel the subscription? It's just a new way of looking at monetizing software, and I expect it's going to be the way things are headed for all software before long.

                    • 7. Re: Muse anybody?
                      longhair101 Level 1

                      Well, sure I could make a simile with on-line guitar lessons. Then I'm willing to dip in for a month. Or a tutorial site like linda.

                       

                      But with software and web projects time is money.

                       

                      If I can't play with the program during down time, I'll lose time and money re-learning the program every time I return to use it. Just as bad, I'll never be able to practice and learn, to get ready for upcoming projects.

                       

                      So maybe it becomes a better investment for the time being to continue improving my Dreamweaver skills.

                      • 8. Re: Muse anybody?
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        Only you can make that determination, but it sounds to me like you want to be serious about web design.

                         

                        If that's the case, I'd definitely sign up for the beta, and if you find the progam useful you might want to reconsider. As I said above, professionals budget for ongoing expenses, and this seems pretty light if it generates income.

                        • 9. Re: Muse anybody?
                          peterpica Level 1

                          I'd jump at that idea... hope you get a commission on sales Peter!

                          • 10. Re: Muse anybody?
                            peterpica Level 1

                            They won't get many sales to this group then...

                            • 11. Re: Muse anybody?
                              BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                              Think outside the box a bit folks. This thing is great for prototyping websites and a terrific tool for creating html content for iPad apps.

                               

                              For a small business it might even be good enough to create a finished site where the code really doesn't matter. Think about special event sites that have a limited life span. Great for that, too.

                               

                              This thing is never going to replace Dreamweaver as a web authoring tool as long as the code is as bad as it is right now.

                               

                              Bob

                              • 12. Re: Muse anybody?
                                peterpica Level 1

                                RIGHT ON!

                                 

                                my sentiments exactly...

                                • 13. Re: Muse anybody?
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  iaugustleo wrote:

                                   

                                  To the moron that compared it to the cable company...FAIL! You may be the couch potatoe sort and absorb every FPS (frame per second) from every channel you can imagine to make even that worth your monthly subscription; but, me on the otherhand, the person who watches 10 channels sparingly from the 2000 that I'm required to pay for even though I don't use...FAIL. We deserve fair competition and options!

                                  Watch your mouth. You're very close to having me ban you before you even get started as a participant here.

                                   

                                  Nobody is forcing anyone to subscribe to anything. You are free not to use the product, just as you are free not to purchase cable service (I buy basic and until they made me a better offer for less money with phone service rolled in, I had less than 20 channels. NOBODY watches them all, so you decide if the cost of service is worth it for the channels you WILL watch. It's not strictly a pay-per-channel deal).

                                   

                                  I'd guess you are not a candidate for Muse. I don't like cloud services or subscriptions, either, but if that's the way to get what I need to do my business, pragamtism is going to outweigh preference.

                                  • 14. Re: Muse anybody?
                                    iaugustleo Level 1

                                    @Peter Spier:

                                     

                                    I apologize for calling you a moron and suggesting that you may be a couch potato. I wasn't aware that you would be that sensitive to the context, nevertheless, it wasn't right. So I'll do the stand up thing and apologize for at least THAT MUCH! Besides, that had nothing to do with the point I was trying to make.

                                     

                                    Now, I did expect that it would only be a matter of time before the Adobe police showed up and either banned me, threatened to ban me, or censored my unexplicit information! As to me watching my mouth, I am watching it. I'm watching it say what so many are thinking but are afraid to say in fear of retribution in one form or the other.

                                     

                                    Yes, nobody is forcing me to subscribe to anything...the cable company (phone companies included) alreading reached and cornered the market that many of these software manufacturing corporate mogels wished they had the technology to do in the first place. You know...before consumers became so accustomed to owning the software they love. Does it still make it right? Think of it this way: Say I go to Taco Bell and order a Burrito Supreme and ask that they don't put any tomatoes or sour cream but add lettuce. Watch the screen...there is no monetary value to items they remove, but when they add the lettuce suddenly I'm being charged 30 extra cents. Is that right? But that's just the way it is. All I can hear is you, Peter, screaming in my ear, "If you don't like it, don't order it." Come on, I thought I left that mentality in high school.

                                     

                                    You say I am free not to use the product, and so long as it is subscription based, I won't! It's sad really, I mean, who is Adobe marketing this product to anyway? It's suppose to be code free, user friendly, and casual like, yet they push this subscription model more toward those that are hardcore designers or corporate jugarnauts that will get their money's worth with a single client. Come on, everyone knows that the majority of hardcore designers/developers want to throw up at the sight of WYSIWYG without knowing code. I was simply interested in using Muse for wireframing designs, of which I currently use InDesign for. I just don't like the idea of not being able to get under the hood, and of course, the subscription model.

                                     

                                    As for Adobe, you know what, if you want to charge me $400 that's fine. I just don't need to worry about what day of the month what gets drafted from my account and from whom and where. When, pretty soon, we are all forced to have subscriptions to all our software, I see a cluster @#$%& in our bank accounts. I would much rather pay for it and be done with it. If later, there's an upgrade, I'd gladly pay if it warranted it. I know designers/developers who are still on CS3 and have no intention on upgrading. It's doing what they bought it to do. No more, no less.

                                     

                                    So again, I'm free to not use the subscription service, I get it, but because of all who ARE or WILL be using it, they will eventually cause it so that options no longer exist, either we conform, or not use it at all

                                     

                                    Lastly, I hope I didn't say anything that warrants me from being banned. If I did, oh well, I guess I'll be the maurader here. But if I got something to say, I'm going to say it...regardless of obstacles. It's my constitutional right to have my freedom of speech. You have your opinions, I have mine. Playing the "I can ban you game" is just matching you know whats. I run on many proxies, alias, email accounts, and registration is a dime a dozen. I hope I didn't offend anyone on this forum, just mark my word that this is only the beginning before we are screwed out of options.

                                     

                                    PLEASE PEOPLE, DON'T DO SUBSCRIPTIONS! Let's keep the internet the way it was meant to be...

                                    • 15. Re: Muse anybody?
                                      peterpica Level 1

                                      Personally, I'd prefer paying $300 upfront and have the option of upgrading every 1.5-3 years, rather than a monthly fee. Why not bundle it with the next CS6 package as an option?

                                      • 16. Re: Muse anybody?
                                        iaugustleo Level 1

                                        I agree! Maybe make it a part of the CS Design Premium and CS Master Collection suites. If Dreamweaver and InDesign is good enough to be there, I don't see why Muse can't. After all, Muse appears to be a Dreamweaver/InDesign hybrid.

                                        • 17. Re: Muse anybody?
                                          peterpica Level 1

                                          You can bet the house that Dreamweaver's days are numbered. You heard it here! Will go the way of other software that Adobe bought out and then jettisoned after securing the acquisition's market share as their own. Witness Framemaker and others.

                                          • 18. Re: Muse anybody?
                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                            People,

                                             

                                            I do agree that I'd rather pay for a license that doesn't expire. I HATE the idea of subscription software.

                                             

                                            But I do see the sense of it from a business point of view for Adobe and anyone else in the business of writing that software. Development isn't free for the company that's doing the developing. For Muse, which is brand new and everything is still being invented, there is a lot of expense involved in providing updates every week, or even every day in some cases. These are being offered this way in order to keep up with the very rapid changes in the web environment. How often do we see updates to the regular license products? Subscriptions offer a fairly smooth cash flow picture, and whether we like it or not, they also make it easier for many struggling artists to pay for the program. How many of us can scrape together $20 every month if we know we're going to need to pay the "rent" but won't put that aside in a savings account to pay for next year's upgrade? And for the casual user, as I said before, being able to puchase a window of time to use the program, and then pay nothing for months until you need it again, sounds like a good deal. I'd like to see both options made available, and maybe if enough people ask, politely, it will happen.

                                             

                                            As far as the forum police, as moderator, I guess that's me. I think you'll find I'm quite tolerant, though, most of the time. I take exception, however, to personal insults, but I'll accept your apology and remind you that when you signed up you agreed not make malicious posts, call people names, etc. The InDesign forums have, I think the best set of users and the most polite and professional that you are likely to find. Let's keep it that way, please.

                                            • 19. Re: Muse anybody?
                                              peterpica Level 1

                                              Peter, you've been a gracious and informative host. HOWEVER... Adobe ought to put their collective ears to the railroad tracks a tad more often before aggravating their loyal user base any more.

                                              • 20. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                iaugustleo wrote:

                                                I mean, who is Adobe marketing this product to anyway?

                                                Judging from the way it's already integrated, I'd say Business Catalyst users.

                                                 

                                                Bob

                                                • 21. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                  BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                  peterpica wrote:

                                                   

                                                  You can bet the house that Dreamweaver's days are numbered. You heard it here! Will go the way of other software that Adobe bought out and then jettisoned after securing the acquisition's market share as their own. Witness Framemaker and others.

                                                  I'll take that bet right now. Anyone with any knowledge of where the web is heading will recognize that Dreamweaver is best developement tool out there. For quicky sites and sites that need to be built cheaply with no consideration for whether a search engine can see them Muse will do the job.

                                                   

                                                  Bob

                                                  • 22. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                    peterpica wrote:

                                                     

                                                    Adobe ought to put their collective ears to the railroad tracks a tad more often before aggravating their loyal user base any more.

                                                    I think the ultimate decision will be based on what large-scale users want -- they seem to drive most of the business decisions. If the big boys say they don't want subscriptions, they'll go away in a hurry. We single-seat users are a drop in the bucket in the revenue stream.

                                                    • 23. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                      iaugustleo Level 1

                                                      I too agree with seeing it from Adobe's business perspective. I understand what they're doing and it seems to be pretty smart from a monetary angle. Their business initiative first and foremost is revenue, and generating more of it! They have analysts on top of it. It makes no sense to have a business that does not revolve around money. Businesses aim to squash the competition, gain market share, and adapt to an ever evolving and changing consumer society, and strategize accordingly. Businesses must make consumers feel like they're #1 and valued, even though their wallets are #1 and valued most. Of course they can't make it feel that way. It's not until the majority consumer base voices a concern against something and stands up for it until a company says, "we've got to listen to our customers and give them what they want." Otherwise, you're just a peon and nobody cares.

                                                       

                                                      And that's kind of where I'm at with Muse. If the majority refuses to utilize the subscription service and Adobe feels the pressure, eventually Adobe will listen and change their strategy, and oh yeah, things will change rather quickly. But not if we don't make a stand and voice our concern. It's how everything good in this country came to pass. My biggest concern is if eventually a subscription model is our only option to access anything and everything within our lives; your cable service, telephone service, computer, operating system, software, etc. Who knows how far it'll go. Before you know it you're subscription will be based on your credit report, much like cable and phone service today. Better credit, better deal. Bad credit, bad deal.

                                                       

                                                      So yeah, I understand Adobe's angle, although I think most would agree that they hit the wallet pretty hard. Adobe's fiscal second quarter profit climbed 54% with a reported PROFIT of $229.4 million, 49 cents a share. I'd say they're being compensated rather well for their genius products off the sweat of their loyal customers

                                                       

                                                      At the end of the day, I have nothing but love for Adobe. And Sorry for the slightly pedantic post, I will shut up now.

                                                      • 24. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                        longhair101 Level 1

                                                        I'm very much in agreement with iaugustleo and Peterpica.

                                                         

                                                        Muse is fun to play with and an extremely overdue concept. Quark has had excellent web exporting capabilities for the last three versions, the last 7 years. There are some things that Adobe's already doing better than quark is, such as the plan view, meta data, and simple auto responders.

                                                         

                                                        But Adobe had to ruin a great start by putting their own special brand of blood-sucking spin on it.

                                                         

                                                        Adobe's blood sucking tactics really came to the front a few years when some major newspaper released a study showing that most software users upgrade every two versions. Within a few months Adobe announced that they would no longer offer the same price when upgrading from a version 2-3 versions old, the way they always had in the past (and the way everyone else does).

                                                         

                                                        Instead in order to insure the best "value" to the customer, from now on the customer would have to upgrade to every new version, to insure receiving the "best" upgrade price. To add insult to injury, the following new releases of CS where promptly followed by X.5 versions, which although lower in upgrade price than a full X.0 release, still counted as full versions in their new upgrade pricing scheme.

                                                         

                                                        And now Adobe graduates to the "internet marketing guru's" favorite money bilking tactic, the Monthly Subscription.

                                                         

                                                        I'm glad I'm not the only one out there actively refusing to quietly sit back and be one of Adobe's "Creative Sheep."

                                                        • 25. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                          peterpica Level 1

                                                          You're on Bob! How about a Philly Cheesesteak?

                                                          • 26. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                            BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                            With a Yuengling (or two)?

                                                             

                                                            Bob

                                                            • 27. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                              peterpica Level 1

                                                              Don't think Joey Vento carries Yuengling! (He just passed away today... too bad).

                                                               

                                                              (FYI... Joey was owner of Geno's Steaks.)

                                                              • 28. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                Mr. Met Level 3

                                                                Subscription doesn't bother me as much as knowing Muse don't reside on my computer. At least that's how I understand it will work when app goes live. You let your subscription lapse and it's goodbye files. That bothers me most of all. You can already subscribe to Creative Suite apps. So I can lease CS5 on my 2nd machine for only as long as I need the freelancer. As long as the production files reside on my machines, I'm good with the thought of subscription. I plan on owning one current version of the suite and just updating or leasing a matching ID to go with it. Unless I get to the point where I have a full time employee, the cost of updating a 2nd suite is pointless and expensive.

                                                                • 29. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                  BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                  The files you create are saved locally.

                                                                   

                                                                  Bob

                                                                  • 30. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                    Mr. Met Level 3

                                                                    Still dead files if you let Muse lapse and have no way to convert or open in any other app.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                      BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                      Export them as HTML. Works just fine and I've already tested this by using the HTML content in an iPad app.

                                                                       

                                                                      You can then upload them to any server or open them in any web authoring tool.

                                                                       

                                                                      If you want to get a great overview of this app, James Fritz did a 1 hour or so Lynda.com course on it. You can get free one week trial with this link: http://bit.ly/fcGpiI

                                                                       

                                                                      Bob

                                                                      • 32. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                        peterpica Level 1

                                                                        No html file with resource folder, etc?

                                                                         

                                                                        If so, that's a real bummer and seals my decision NOT to even try it out.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                          Mr. Met Level 3

                                                                          I started playing with Muse when it first came out but haven't had time to sit with it for a few hours and really test it. I like the concept a lot for down and dirty sites. I have tons of clients who only want to spend $200-$300 on a site and if I can bang it out in an hour or two in Muse I can satisfy a client and show enough profit for it to be worth it.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                            peterpica Level 1

                                                                            That's the rule rather than the exception... can probably make more on garbage sites than quality ones any more, especially if you can stay away from support issues.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                              BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                              Well then, there you go!

                                                                               

                                                                              Time to think a bit outside the box. I've already mentioned using it for HTML content in conjunction with DPS, but what about those quick one off sites for a local event. These sites can be banged out in no time, look great (or like crap depending on the "designer") and don't need to be crawled by search engines. Think charity events and the like.

                                                                               

                                                                              Do one site every couple months and you're still making money.

                                                                               

                                                                              Bob

                                                                              • 36. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                                peterpica Level 1

                                                                                I thought you said it was for charity...

                                                                                • 37. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                                  BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                  Doing a website for 200-400 dollars is charity!

                                                                                   

                                                                                  Bob

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Muse anybody?
                                                                                    peterpica Level 1

                                                                                    I see you're still pretty quick on your feet, huh Bob?

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