1 2 Previous Next 41 Replies Latest reply on Apr 13, 2011 10:48 PM by Jeff Schewe

    Parametric Curve Problem

    Hudechrome Level 2

      I have a parametric Curve setting saved. However, when I invoke it, there is no way to exit it w/o resetting everything to zero. I did a manual reset to zero it out then saved it for a reset, but that's not the best workaround. I need to be able to set any saved parameter in ACR to zero. Point Curve has a drop down menu to do this. Parametric does not.

        • 1. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
          Noel Carboni Level 7

          I don't see any way short of typing in 4 zeros.

           

          Not sure if you're always starting from 0 0 0 0, but Ctrl - Alt - Z steps back through your changes one by one...

           

           

          There are SO many secret keystrokes in Camera Raw...  Maybe if you take off  one of your socks there's an 11 key combination to reset it to linear.

           

          -Noel

          • 2. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
            MTSTUNER Level 6

            Also just Ctrl+Z should undo your last operation in camera raw and

            double clicking on the sliders will return them to zero.

             

             

             

             

            MTSTUNER

            • 3. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
              Noel Carboni Level 7

              Geez, there are secret mouse operations too! 

               

              -Noel

              • 4. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                Hudechrome Level 2

                Not even close.

                 

                Do this:

                 

                Set up a Parametric Curve. Save it. Exit PS. Open PS and open a RAW file . Engage the saved Parametric. Try to go back to linear or default with Ctrl Z. It doesn't work. Toes don't matter!

                 

                If you make the changes by hand on a file, of course you can go back. But not if you save it then reuse it on another file or upon reopening RAW.

                 

                I'll bet there are other adjustments that can be saved but no default return when you use it again. With Point Curves, you have a menu and can always return to default which is a medium contrast, or any other choice, including any custom curves which have been saved. Not parametrics.

                • 5. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                  Jeff Schewe Level 5

                  Hudechrome wrote:

                   

                  I need to be able to set any saved parameter in ACR to zero. Point Curve has a drop down menu to do this. Parametric does not.

                   

                  Why? If you create a preset with the parametric curve, the implication is that you want to be able to apply the same parametric curve to other images. The parametric curves settings are absolute settings. When you make a preset with those settings, they will be applied when you apply that preset. I guess I really don't understand what the issue is.

                  • 6. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                    Hudechrome Level 2

                    The issue is that I may want to change my mind. After all, isn't that what history is all about? I don't possess any magical prescience that knows the curve is right before trying. At least when messing with it directly, I do have an undo.

                     

                    I have now, three different ways to do a "compensation development" procedure. One is Fill Light. Usually way too broad. Another is in a preset Point Curve. Parametrics is the third. Subtly different than Point Curve version. I want to freely do mix and match and need to delete one or the other.

                     

                    Putting them in layers would be even better.

                     

                    Actually I am somewhat prescience. After my last post, I expected you to show up and you did. Now if I could only do that with editing, I probably wouldn't have to even touch the keyboard or mouse!

                    • 7. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                      Hudechrome wrote:

                       

                      The issue is that I may want to change my mind. After all, isn't that what history is all about?

                       

                      Well, that's the beauty of parametric editing...you can always change your mind up to the point you hit open. Parametric curves is a quick and very efficient method of adjusting the tone curve. It's not a precise as point curves–which is why both methods of editing are included. The UI and usability vary considerably. Yes, the point curve offers a drop down menu with options. The parametric curve doesn't. Nature of the beast...the parametric curve editor is designed for interactive slider adjustments. The point curve for more precision point by point. Bottom line is that you've not made a use case why the parametric curve editor should be any different than it is now.

                       

                      Hudechrome wrote:

                       

                      Putting them in layers would be even better.

                       

                      Well, that ain't gonna happen...

                      • 8. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                        Noel Carboni Level 7

                        Hudechrome wrote:

                         

                        Not even close.

                         

                        I figured as much.

                         

                        The "sock" thing was just in anticipation of a possible magical 11 key combination that I don't know about, which resets the curves.

                         

                        There are two extremes, if you think about it:  1.  Shoot JPEG and take what you're given and be happy.  2.  Shoot RAW and adjust everything available that can be adjusted every time to achieve artistic perfection, and be happy.

                         

                        The approach I have taken with the curves (and all the other parameters) was along the lines of what Adobe is thinking, I believe: Find a default that's a pleasing starting point for a majority of images, then tweak it as needed. Ideally, if one has chosen a good default and one maintains the proper expectations, one need not tweak everything every time.

                         

                         

                        -Noel

                        • 9. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                          Hudechrome Level 2

                          That's what I do, Noel, as you know well. We are asked to present our findings and ask for what we want, but in doing so, I see it is mostly fodder for Red Queens like Schewe to say WRONG!

                           

                          I dispair of Adobe. I very likely will never place a request here again. As it is said of a cat that sat on a hot stove....

                          • 10. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                            Hudechrome Level 2

                            Whattsa matta Jeff? NIH? I'm sure glad you haven't run for county judge. But then, in Cook county.....

                            • 11. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                              Hudechrome Level 2

                              Ok, I'll stick around with one more suggestion, as it is already......nah!

                               

                              Now I am done.

                              • 12. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                Hudechrome wrote:

                                 

                                Now I am done.

                                 

                                Promise?

                                • 13. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                  Noel Carboni Level 7

                                  Aw, c'mon kids, there's no need to get quarrelsome.

                                   

                                  It's ONLY a silly little computer program we're talking about, after all.

                                   

                                  I'd be willing to bet my house that every last one of the folks here is not immortal, puts their pants on one leg at a time just like everyone else, and in fact is a miracle of nature.

                                   

                                  For future versions of Camera Raw, may I suggest implementing Ctrl-Alt-Shift-0 for zeroing all the controls on the page.  But please do this after making scroll bars. 

                                   

                                   

                                  -Noel

                                  • 14. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                    Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                    Noel Carboni wrote:

                                     

                                    For future versions of Camera Raw, may I suggest implementing Ctrl-Alt-Shift-0 for zeroing all the controls on the page.

                                     

                                     

                                    Create a preset or, if that's too much work, simply create a new Camera Raw Default...pretty easy to deal with this stuff without requiring engineering time on rather questionable functionality.

                                    • 15. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                      Hudechrome Level 2

                                      You said it, I didn't. But I was about to suggest something similar.

                                       

                                      I did create another preset to return Parametrics to Linear. Stupid as it requires I need to open the menu, click load files, click on the file, enter it into the dialog, close it and go on. Yet a simple one click can do it, I know.It's available for other tools in ACR. In Adjustment Brush or Crop. Clear All.

                                       

                                      Schewe is to busy reading into rather than simply reading. Too busy finding reasons to call some one a ya ya hiding behind a name (which happens to have been my trademark, Jeff. You do understand trademarks, right?).

                                      • 16. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                        Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                        Hudechrome wrote:

                                         

                                        Stupid as it requires I need to open the menu, click load files, click on the file, enter it into the dialog, close it and go on. Yet a simple one click can do it, I know.It's available for other tools in ACR.

                                         

                                        Ya know, you can apply a preset from within Bridge without ever needing to open an image into Camera Raw, right?

                                         

                                        Hudechrome wrote:

                                         

                                        Schewe is to busy reading into rather than simply reading.

                                         

                                        Ya know, I try to read what you write...it's just that what you write doesn't often make much sense (since you only seem to have a passing knowledge of how to use Camera Raw).

                                        • 17. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                          Hudechrome Level 2

                                          That's a non-sequitur. I'm not talking about Bridge, I'm in ACR.

                                           

                                          I rest my case. About reading.

                                           

                                          And no, I don't (apparently!) have your level of expertise. Which of course allows you to play BMOC, that is until someone upstages you with an idea you hadn't thought of, then you resort to ad hominums.

                                           

                                          Anyway, to humor you, I looked at Develop Settings in Bridge. Do you know what I found in Bridge? Clear Settings, however,seemingly similar to Cancel in ACR.

                                           

                                          My presets were there as well, so selected my Parametric Save. Of course, Ctrl Z didn't work here either, so only Clear Settings seems to be the go to step. It also clears out all the settings, like Cancel. Takes a heap of learnin' to master this stuff, yeseriee! What wuz I thinkin'!

                                           

                                          Guess I'll stick to my primitive understanding of anything PS. No help for I's retards!

                                           

                                          You are absolutely right, Jeff.

                                           

                                          Absolutely.

                                          • 18. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                            Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                            Hudechrome wrote:

                                             

                                            That's a non-sequitur. I'm not talking about Bridge, I'm in ACR.

                                             

                                            Well, if you were practiced in the art of using Camera Raw, you would realize that you can apply presets in Bridge without ever resorting to opening an image in Camera Raw...it's one of the bennies of making ACR presets...

                                            • 19. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                              Hudechrome Level 2

                                              Some do not use Bridge......

                                               

                                              And I prefer my workflow. I see no need to open in Bridge and more flexibility in going straight to ACR.

                                               

                                              I've gone through many iterations of ACR workflow, using Fraser's CS2 Camera RAW. Maybe I'll change sometime, but I like the way I have come to reconcile the problems I have using ACR. And yes, I know that the CS2 is well outdated, but the foundations are sound.

                                               

                                              I pulled it off the shelf just now to look it over again. I especially like what he had to say on p xvi: "Understanding and Hubris". Good to keep in mind.

                                               

                                              Also keep in mind I am an experimenter, not a commercial photographer (any more!) so workflows that generate consistent results from a realistic pov is not high on my list, although I can do that if necessary.

                                               

                                              Finally, remember the process: Message Sent>Message Received. Many times they don't match, and as a teacher (I taught photography for a number of years at a community college), it was my responsibility to get inside the student's head, not theirs to figure out how to say what they think I want to hear. I heartily recommend that path, but to each his own. More fun to use ad hominums! It is though, both our responsibilities to make sure they do match.

                                               

                                              So if you don't understand what I am about, either find out or just don't bother. Others come here too, you know.

                                              • 20. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                Why would anyone in their right mind use Bridge? 

                                                 

                                                Perhaps people who have chosen substandard operating systems without the awesome power of Windows Explorer at their every beck and call? 

                                                 

                                                -Noel

                                                • 22. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                  Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                  Noel Carboni wrote:

                                                   

                                                  Why would anyone in their right mind use Bridge? 

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Well, if you wanted to apply the same preset to 100 or 1000 images, Bridge would be a darn sight faster that trying to load the images in ACR.

                                                  • 23. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                    Of course, if I was shooting for quantity instead of quality I might consider getting the right tool for the job:  Lightroom. 

                                                     

                                                    I'm just yanking chains here, if you can't tell.

                                                     

                                                    And here I thought PC users were the ones who had to keep a good sense of humor about them. 

                                                     

                                                    -Noel

                                                    • 24. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                      Hudechrome Level 2

                                                      Pull hard enough and we will all go down the loo!

                                                      • 25. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                        Hudechrome Level 2

                                                        Ok, I have to reopen this thread.

                                                         

                                                        Today I ran some files through ACR. One of them was a candidate for my Compensation curve. I invoked the Parametric Curve, looked at it and without thinking hit Ctrl Z and unlike all the other times I tried it, as outlined in my OP, it worked! I watched the graph return to default, the image responding. I opened other files with the same result.

                                                         

                                                        Now, normally when a poster posts a problem with the process outlined, we test it to verify the results. Many times we do not see what the OP sees. Did anyone actually try what I posted and get my initial results?

                                                         

                                                        Clicking on the right of the Tone Curve Bar, I can load it from Preset of Load Settings. I tried both with the same result. CtrZ works. If I leave the menu open while the preset is applied, CtrlZ does not work. But that menu is not open if I use Load Settings, that menu is not open after loading, so it isn't that.

                                                         

                                                        I'm not sure this has anything to do with it, but last night I decided to try to use two versions of a RAW file with different settings, using Open as Copy. That didn't work either. Alt Click on Open stayed open. So I exited PS restarted it and it worked.It is working today as well.

                                                         

                                                        Two with one blow. Not as good as seven, but I'll take it! In the meantime any insights appreciated. In any case, I proved at least that Ctrl Z does its job in Parametric's. If it happens again, I'll immediately go to Reset Prefs.

                                                         

                                                        BTW, I have Bridge configured to open ACR hosted by PS.

                                                        • 26. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                          Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                          I have to admit I didn't try to reproduce anything from your OP because frankly I didn't really understand exactly what functions you had used to save your Parametric Curve.  You weren't quite specific enough.

                                                           

                                                          If you'll describe exactly how you're saving and loading it, possibly with a screen grab or two if anything's difficult to express, I'll be happy to try.

                                                           

                                                          -Noel

                                                          • 27. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                            Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                            P.S., you wouldn't be the first to see bugs in the save/load process, if you're doing what I think you're doing.  I hear some of them will be addressed in 6.4, though I haven't tried the beta myself.

                                                             

                                                            Just experimenting with Ctrl-Z and Ctrl-Alt-Z just now, along with loading settings.  Something's a bit amiss there I think.  I am able to load parameters, then find that the keystrokes do nothing (although in one trial they DID do something).  So multi-level undo is not quite implemented universally/properly either.

                                                             

                                                            All this would, of course, have worked out much better if only they'd programmed scroll bars into the display. 

                                                             

                                                            -Noel

                                                            • 28. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                              Hudechrome Level 2

                                                              To test, open Tone Curve dialog, select Parametric Tab, make some sort of change click on icon at far right of the Tone Curve Title bar, click save settings and finish as you wish. Then close ACR, reopen it pick an image go to tone Curve and  again click icon on the right of the Tone Curve Title bar. You can either Load settings or go to Preset and find your curve. Apply it then do Ctrl-z and see if it reverts to default, which will be a straight line.

                                                              • 29. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                Okay thanks for confirming the specifics.  That's what I did in post 27.  No dice.  Once in a while it seems I can get Ctrl-Z or Ctrl-Alt-Z to do something, but usually not.

                                                                 

                                                                If it never did anything I'd say maybe that's just the design - that parameter group load operations just can't be undone - but since it seems to do something sometimes, I'd say it's more likely a good ol' fashioned BUGLET.

                                                                 

                                                                -Noel

                                                                • 30. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                  Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                  So then, you cannot undo with Ctrl-Z immediately after engaging the Preset?

                                                                   

                                                                  Interesting, because I was suspecting that a Reset Prefs would fix it, which I don't like to do because, while I can return to a saved Prefs, not everything is saved, like my default values for Shadow/Highlight. So I am loathe to do so unless unavoidable. At this point it probably won't prove anything, but what happens if I do and now Ctrl-Z doesn't work any more?

                                                                   

                                                                  This would a job for Adobe bug check, not moi (unless they pay me!).

                                                                   

                                                                  Thanks, Noel.

                                                                  • 31. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                    Noel Carboni Level 7

                                                                    I wouldn't reset prefs given what you're seeing.

                                                                     

                                                                    And so here it is, for all to see; hopefully the Adobe folks will pick it up and figure out what's wrong.  You could go to the bug/wish form to make sure it's officially reported, I suppose.

                                                                     

                                                                    -Noel

                                                                    • 32. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                      Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                      Hudechrome wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      So then, you cannot undo with Ctrl-Z immediately after engaging the Preset?

                                                                       

                                                                      There does seem to be an issue when you "Load Settings" where the command z doesn't undo the applied loaded settings in a consistent manner. I'm not sure why but I think it is related to the Load dlog in the system some how breaking ACR's undo.

                                                                       

                                                                      However, applying a Preset (which is what the load settings is doing all in ACR) has no problem with the usual multiple undos after applying a preset...

                                                                       

                                                                      Not sure it's a "bug" but it is an "issue". The way to avoid is to save and use presets not the same/load settings from the flyout menu.

                                                                      • 33. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                        Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                        Actually, Jeff, I did both...Preset or Load settings and when Ctrl z didn't work, it didn't work for either. now when it does work, it works for both.

                                                                         

                                                                        On this box anyway. I believe Noel confirmed it on his as well.

                                                                        • 34. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                          Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                          Hudechrome wrote:

                                                                           

                                                                          Actually, Jeff, I did both...Preset or Load settings and when Ctrl z didn't work, it didn't work for either. now when it does work, it works for both.

                                                                           

                                                                          To be clear...I've not had any issue when applying a preset. Undo always works. It's only when I've applied a setting from the Load Settings that undo will sometimes not work.

                                                                          • 35. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                            Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                            I just went back and tried both methods again. It works as you say Jeff. Ctrl Z works with Preset, and not with Load Settings.

                                                                             

                                                                            At the moment, anyway. Since I wasn't lookig for a bug in the first place, I didn't record all my moves.

                                                                             

                                                                            This go around, I opened in ACR, went to Preset via the Tone Curve Title Bar and Ctrl Z works. I exited ACR completely, reopened in ACR, selected  Load Settings via Tone Curve Title Bar and Ctrl Z does not work.

                                                                             

                                                                            It's a suitable workaround.

                                                                             

                                                                            However, another problem showed up. I created a compensation curve in both Point and Parametric. I can no longer find the Point version.

                                                                            • 36. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                              Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                              Never mind. Point Curves do not show up in Preset. Or Load Settings.

                                                                              • 37. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                                Jeff Schewe Level 5

                                                                                Hudechrome wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                However, another problem showed up. I created a compensation curve in both Point and Parametric. I can no longer find the Point version.

                                                                                 

                                                                                When you saved the preset, are you sure you have both parametric AND point curves selected?

                                                                                • 38. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                                  Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                                  See my post immediately above yours last.

                                                                                  • 39. Re: Parametric Curve Problem
                                                                                    Hudechrome Level 2

                                                                                    When you saved the preset, are you sure you have both parametric AND point curves selected?

                                                                                     

                                                                                    I don't understand this. I cannot select both, it's either/or.

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